Argos to BMO decision - Wednesday, May 20th

[Wagner]

The difference outside of the lines issue which IMO is a major issue is the area of usage...

In the CFL & NFL the majority of the play is in the middle of pitch (between the hasmarks) that is where the damage occurs especially if there is a lot of precipitation. In rugby the action is normally spread out all over the pitch not just in specific areas.

The ideal comparison is looking at Wembly after the NFL match prior to their Euro qualifier. If memory serves me correct Roy Hodgson and the players weren't to thrilled with the damage to the pitch. I think that Wembly is just grass, but the damage is what to be expected if we get Desso and the Argos come into OUR HOME.

this guy knows!
he gets it.

[Mulder]

Incredibly generalized and therefore disrespecting what you know to be a far less simple situation.

It's fine, though. Act how you want to elsewhere.

My apologies, at the time it certainly wasn't intended to encompass all fans, my fingers type faster than my brain sometimes.

[TheGoodson]

this guy knows!
he gets it.

Further to my point...

Let's say it's the last game of the season we are awarded a pk for the win and clinch the Supporters Shield and Giovinco goes to take it and does a 'John Terry' and slips due to the damage the Argos caused to the pitch as that is the area that gets chewed up the most and misses it??

How would us supporters feel? I would expect nothing less than a full scale riot.

I feel sorry for the Argos as they are the oldest professional franchise in Canada. But they need their own home.

[greatwhitenorf]

Here's the Ospreys vs Edinburgh highlights

Good choice. Shows a similar sized crowd for Argos games.

The difference is that Swansea is a pretty modest little burg - under a quarter million. For a town that sized, stadium sharing only makes sense.

In this city, with two very workable sites available - Lamport and Pan Am Games stadium - there's plenty of opportunity for creative thinkers to build a workable home for the Argos.

Goodson: Yeah, it's wonderful that the Argos are such an elderly institution. But they're hobbling around like someone of that age. A great history does not ensure a viable future.

[greatwhitenorf]

My apologies, at the time it certainly wasn't intended to encompass all fans, my fingers type faster than my brain sometimes.

Having looked at how you portray your life on social media, my first thought: it was the beer talking.

But it's not like you chastise the many vindictive anti-soccer posters on other forums you frequent.

There's a lot of fresh faces suddenly piping up on this issue and my impression of some who tried to mollify our views on the CFL is that they're like a load of butter knives - trying to smooth and sooth and dampen down the ardent emotion and angry opposition most soccer fans feel about this issue. It wouldn't shock me to learn there's a professional element to it.

Not really working.

[Areathrasher]

I said I'd say no more but give some of the comments about Rugby being spread over the pitch, i'd like to respond.

Here is a picture of Brazil training before a game in Singapore. The stadium hosts Soccer and Rugby. It has a natural grass pitch, no desso.

Look at the damage that rugby has caused (you can see the rugby markings from the previous game across the penalty box) and notice where the damage is localized. Up the middle and all over the penalty box. Go try and find pictures of Swansea and Hulls pitch looking that bad.



Oh but it's Singapore. Hot climate. Different conditions.

Ok.

Here is DW Stadium in Wigan. Shared between Wigan and Wigan Warriors Rugby League team. Natural grass. Again look at the damage. Look at where it is. Go find Hull and Swansea looking as bad.



Here's some further reading on the state of Wigans natural grass pitch http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/f...y-take-8699235

[Beach_Red]

My greatest hostility in this whole debacle lies not with the Argos or even the City, but with MLSE. The support TFC has received since Day One has far outweighed what the on-field product deserves. We consistently sell huge numbers of season tickets, and even when the season is lost and the team is being as miserable as usual, the tickets-sold for any match is always very high. We've bought tons and tons of merchandise and displayed fantastic support and yet MLSE support us by actively pursuing the Argos as a tenant?! Despite what some have said, there is no win for TFC supporters in having the Argos there. I don't know of a single TFC supporter who ever wanted a larger stadium. Not one. Many want a roof, but we still don't have that. I don't know of any current supporters who are crying out for more TFC supporters (not that for a moment I believe the idea that if the Argos play at BMO, more people will support TFC: yeah, right - if I attend a concert at the Ricoh Coliseum I'm not going to pick up Marlies season tickets on the way out).

Yes, this is it. Sometimes I think TFC has been an experiment in how far ticket buyers can be pushed - but then I look at the way these companies look at customers of all their products, all their bundling and negative-billing and long contracts and everything they do and this fits the profile, so to speak.

[OgtheDim]

Wembly is just grass, but the damage is what to be expected if we get Desso and the Argos come into OUR HOME.

Wembley is Desso and has a higher grass to plastic ratio then we can expect at BMO.

i.e. We don't know.

[greatwhitenorf]

I hadn't realised that the Argos' average attendance last season was as poor as it was. It makes me wonder if it could be even lower at BMO. Sure, there may be that initial bounce of seeing them in a new venue, but BMO is more difficult to reach than the Dome for anyone travelling by TTC and if the majority of Argos' fans prefer to watch the games from the comfort of their recliner than making the hike to a stadium, BMO may not help at all.

My greatest hostility in this whole debacle lies not with the Argos or even the City, but with MLSE. The support TFC has received since Day One has far outweighed what the on-field product deserves. We consistently sell huge numbers of season tickets, and even when the season is lost and the team is being as miserable as usual, the tickets-sold for any match is always very high. We've bought tons and tons of merchandise and displayed fantastic support and yet MLSE support us by actively pursuing the Argos as a tenant?! Despite what some have said, there is no win for TFC supporters in having the Argos there. I don't know of a single TFC supporter who ever wanted a larger stadium. Not one. Many want a roof, but we still don't have that. I don't know of any current supporters who are crying out for more TFC supporters (not that for a moment I believe the idea that if the Argos play at BMO, more people will support TFC: yeah, right - if I attend a concert at the Ricoh Coliseum I'm not going to pick up Marlies season tickets on the way out).

As for turf, given a choice between what we have now and risking having lines visible on the pitch, having a pitch chewed-up by over-use or by a CFL game played in rain or even simply losing our prime-tenant status, I'd stick with the current turf...forever. Our concerns are not selfish or prima donna-ish as some claim. Soccer is played on the ground. Baseball players all want real grass because it makes their game better and no one has an issue with that even though baseball is not played on the ground like soccer. Yet somehow we're the ones being unreasonable in not wanting to endanger the usually-decent playing surface we currently have.

There is no upside for TFC supporters. This is nothing good for us at all. We can blame the Argos for whining, we can blame politicians for trying to get them to BMO. MLSE might not be able to stop a move if mandated by the city to accept the Argos, but ultimately it's MLSE that actually want this as much or more than anyone else and that is a black-eye for everyone who has supported TFC since day one.

Very well said.

[Rotoomm]

I hadn't realised that the Argos' average attendance last season was as poor as it was. It makes me wonder if it could be even lower at BMO. Sure, there may be that initial bounce of seeing them in a new venue, but BMO is more difficult to reach than the Dome for anyone travelling by TTC and if the majority of Argos' fans prefer to watch the games from the comfort of their recliner than making the hike to a stadium, BMO may not help at all.

i do agree that, no matter where the Argo''s play, they need to fight hard to compete for fans. That being said, the Rogers Center had I be the most dreadful sporting atmosphere out there, even with 25k plus fans. What shape would TFC be in if they played out of the Rogers Center for the past 8 years (given that it had grass), with attendance of 20k?

No matter what league/team, the Skydome is a tough sell... i.e I know it's not the only reason, but it certainly was one reason, why the Bills dd so poorly in TO.

ome thing is for sure, that we are lucky to have been able to play in BMO these past years !

[Fort York Redcoat]

I said I'd say no more but give some of the comments about Rugby being spread over the pitch, i'd like to respond.

Here is a picture of Brazil training before a game in Singapore. The stadium hosts Soccer and Rugby. It has a natural grass pitch, no desso.

Look at the damage that rugby has caused (you can see the rugby markings from the previous game across the penalty box) and notice where the damage is localized. Up the middle and all over the penalty box. Go try and find pictures of Swansea and Hulls pitch looking that bad.



Oh but it's Singapore. Hot climate. Different conditions.

Ok.

Here is DW Stadium in Wigan. Shared between Wigan and Wigan Warriors Rugby League team. Natural grass. Again look at the damage. Look at where it is. Go find Hull and Swansea looking as bad.



Here's some further reading on the state of Wigans natural grass pitch http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/f...y-take-8699235

So you found some worse examples than before, what of it?

We need to keep up with the state of those you mentioned before to see how they stand up to punishment week after week.

Showing us what's worse than what is proposed isn't helping anything I can see.

[Beach_Red]

i do agree that, no matter where the Argo''s play, they need to fight hard to compete for fans. That being said, the Rogers Center had I be the most dreadful sporting atmosphere out there, even with 25k plus fans. What shape would TFC be in if they played out of the Rogers Center for the past 8 years (given that it had grass), with attendance of 20k?

No matter what league/team, the Skydome is a tough sell... i.e I know it's not the only reason, but it certainly was one reason, why the Bills dd so poorly in TO.

ome thing is for sure, that we are lucky to have been able to play in BMO these past years !

No, it wasn't luck, we paid for it.

[Rotoomm]

No, it wasn't luck, we paid for it.

Didn't the city pay for it?

[Beach_Red]

Didn't the city pay for it?

No, the city put up the money but we bought the tickets. The same way the bank put up the money for my mortgage and I paid it off. The problem is, we trusted the city. Of course, you're going to say, we should have known better than to do that and I have no argument for that.

[Rotoomm]

No, the city put up the money but we bought the tickets. The same way the bank put up the money for my mortgage and I paid it off. The problem is, we trusted the city. Of course, you're going to say, we should have known better than to do that and I have no argument for that.

Oh I see what you mean, like a bank mortgage, the City loaned the money, and it got paid off. Sorry for my confusion, thanks for clearing that up!

[Areathrasher]

So you found some worse examples than before, what of it?

We need to keep up with the state of those you mentioned before to see how they stand up to punishment week after week.

Showing us what's worse than what is proposed isn't helping anything I can see.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

That post was in response to this

In the CFL & NFL the majority of the play is in the middle of pitch (between the hasmarks) that is where the damage occurs especially if there is alot of precipitation. In rugby the action is normally spread out all over the pitch not just in specific areas.

I provided evidence that Rugby in fact does cause damage right up the middle of the field in a much similar fashion to NFL/CFL.

So if you compare those images to the Hull and Swansea ones. You see how good Desso is to standing up to the rigours of Rugby.

Also, you don't need to keep an eye on Hull and Swansea's pitches. There is already years worth of evidence out there.

[brad]

i do agree that, no matter where the Argo''s play, they need to fight hard to compete for fans. That being said, the Rogers Center had I be the most dreadful sporting atmosphere out there, even with 25k plus fans. What shape would TFC be in if they played out of the Rogers Center for the past 8 years (given that it had grass), with attendance of 20k?

No matter what league/team, the Skydome is a tough sell... i.e I know it's not the only reason, but it certainly was one reason, why the Bills dd so poorly in TO.

ome thing is for sure, that we are lucky to have been able to play in BMO these past years !

The Bills did poorly on TO because it was an overpriced watered down experience. For less than a price of a ticket to the game here, you could get a ticket to a game in Buffalo, the bus there and back (with beer on the bus) and have the full, proper tailgate experience. I know a ton of people that go see the Bills frequently and they all laughed at the games here.

[ag futbol]

Skydome is superior in terms of access from transit, shielding from weather, and potential for walk-ups. It is not a one-way deal comparing It with BMO.

Just because you play DT in a somewhat trendy location does not mean people are falling over themselves to show up. This is just a band-aid on what is ailing the cfl and the Argos in the GTA. Blue collar sell in an increasingly white collar town and a lack of interest with the younger crowd still rings true.

[reggie]

it should be...after all we paid over 500 mil 25 yrs ago for the jays and the ARGOS...

[Beach_Red]

Skydome is superior in terms of access from transit, shielding from weather, and potential for walk-ups. It is not a one-way deal comparing It with BMO.

Just because you play DT in a somewhat trendy location does not mean people are falling over themselves to show up. This is just a band-aid on what is ailing the cfl and the Argos in the GTA. Blue collar sell in an increasingly white collar town and a lack of interest with the younger crowd still rings true.

That seems true, but I do wonder, why is the CFL doing well in Montreal?

[GabrielHurl]

Skydome is superior in terms of access from transit, shielding from weather, and potential for walk-ups. It is not a one-way deal comparing It with BMO.

BMO also has a GO station right there as well as 2 streetcars stopping directly outside it. It has 2 more streetcars within a 10 minute walk, it has a lot more parking than around the Dome and it's got better access to the highways.

Skydome is still a good 10 minute walk from Union Station.

[ag futbol]

BMO also has a GO station right there as well as 2 streetcars stopping directly outside it. It has 2 more streetcars within a 10 minute walk, it has a lot more parking than around the Dome and it's got better access to the highways.

Skydome is still a good 10 minute walk from Union Station.

10 minute walk, which can be taken mostly covered from the elements, should not deter anyone. Streetcar service in this city - especially west of downtown - is very unreliable. Bmo is next to one go line - Union is the hub with all of them. Parking next to skydome is not as good as BMO but there are plenty of options available.

A ten minute walk from the transportation hub of the city and close to a subway line is a superior location to the west of the core. Just ask the people trying to start private shuttles between DT-Liberty Village because transit is such a nightmare.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

That post was in response to this


I provided evidence that Rugby in fact does cause damage right up the middle of the field in a much similar fashion to NFL/CFL.

So if you compare those images to the Hull and Swansea ones. You see how good Desso is to standing up to the rigours of Rugby.

Also, you don't need to keep an eye on Hull and Swansea's pitches. There is already years worth of evidence out there.

No I wasn't being deliberate but whats obtuse is trusting your one example of the state of the pitch.

Glad to hear it made it through a tough week. When I have time I'll look for a more comprehensive study than your sample of one.

[ensco]

BMO would be a huge boost to the Argos. At least for a while. That seems obvious to me.

Maybe our best hope is all these concussion lawsuits in the U.S. The business model of football may be closer to being destroyed than anyone realizes.

[Rotoomm]

What shape would TFC be in if they played out of the Rogers Center for the past 8 years (given that it had grass), with attendance of 20k? Would the ever age attendance be higher?

[Fort York Redcoat]

What shape would TFC be in if they played out of the Rogers Center for the past 8 years (given that it had grass), with attendance of 20k? Would the ever age attendance be higher?

This is irrelevant to the topic.

I realize it was not you who started the digression/derail but you defending the Argos poor attendance doesn't further the on topic discussion.

And its Rogers Centre. We live in Canada.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Also:

Three days until a possible announcement on this issue.

[Areathrasher]

No I wasn't being deliberate but whats obtuse is trusting your one example of the state of the pitch.

Glad to hear it made it through a tough week. When I have time I'll look for a more comprehensive study than your sample of one.

I provided 2 samples actually. The national stadium of Singapore and DW Stadium in Wigan. Are you being willfully ignorant or is reading comprehension not your strong point? Honest question.

[Rotoomm]

This is irrelevant to the topic.

I realize it was not you who started the digression/derail but you defending the Argos poor attendance doesn't further the on topic discussion.

And its Rogers Centre. We live in Canada.

huh? Just questioning, not defending... I included it in another post above, which was completely relevant, just nobody provided input, so I thought I'd ask again. I suppose I can elaborate and suggest it could be a lot like the experience at BC Place? Not sure tho as I haven't attended a game in BC place.

[Beach_Red]

BMO would be a huge boost to the Argos. At least for a while. That seems obvious to me.

Maybe our best hope is all these concussion lawsuits in the U.S. The business model of football may be closer to being destroyed than anyone realizes.

Sure, there'll be an initial boost to the Argos, but at least with MLSE owning the team there won't be any playoff games and it won't last...