It's the offseason...so I have to bring this up.

[Steve]

Am I right in that you are criticizing the team with the most MLS Cups of all because they missed the playoffs for the first time in how many years?

Listene dude, everyone wants good players. The point is though, that they come at a price. The sooner people realize that this is about value for money and not just signing anyone who can pass the ball, the sooner we will be in a contending position.

No, I'm not criticizing DC United. I'm saying that throwing a bunch of South Americans at your team is not always going to be a quick fix. I'm saying last off season everyone was screaming and yelling because DC had signed all these players, and Mo hadn't signed anyone. I'm trying to inject a little perspective.

As I said, I'm not against adding latin players to out team. If they are the right fit, for the right place, bring them in. I'm just saying it's not as easy to get the right players for the right price as everyone seems to be assuming, and even teams with huge south american scouting systems like DC united can make terrible choices.

[Roogsy]

Sorry Roogsy is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her.

Sure you can...don't click on the thread.

You seem to be stuck in this "why can't we ignore mods" mode and you don't realize it's as easy as moving on to another thread. Let's move on past this issue that you seem stuck on dude. No need to bring it into another thread, it was already addressed in the thread you started.

[Beach_Red]

Yup. Agreed but I think Roogsy is focusing more the fact that there are more available S Americans for less than in the UK even with our managers connections. I hope to see more players at least try out for our club this year.

before the season starts.

Yes, this would be great.

There's a good chance that once Toronto starts to be seen as a good place to live/play it will a lot easier to get players from more places. Right now TFC is still quite an unknown quantity. Toronto may be less of an unknown quantity for players from the UK - hey, we can pay them with money that has the queen on it, very familiar and there's lots of English spoken here.

But, of course, money talks every language.

[Roogsy]

No, I'm not criticizing DC United. I'm saying that throwing a bunch of South Americans at your team is not always going to be a quick fix. I'm saying last off season everyone was screaming and yelling because DC had signed all these players, and Mo hadn't signed anyone. I'm trying to inject a little perspective.

As I said, I'm not against adding latin players to out team. If they are the right fit, for the right place, bring them in. I'm just saying it's not as easy to get the right players for the right price as everyone seems to be assuming, and even teams with huge south american scouting systems like DC united can make terrible choices.

So my suggestion that we look at more South Americans is the equivalent of:

throwing a bunch of South Americans at your team is not always going to be a quick fix

???

How about simply recognizing the value and selectively choosing players that can contribute AND help the bottom line?

Everyone can make terrible choices. We have and will. As will every other team in the league. The point is whether the overall strategy works. If we look at DC, it does. Shoot...even the biggest teams in the world have massive scouting systems in South America. Why are we not doing that instead of looking at castoffs?

[trane]

Roogsy a response to you earlier comment.

I agree that is the issue, and it comes down to taste. I love the way Montreal plays. I am having a personal debate over this. I have to tell you if both the Impact and TFC were in the same city and I had no preset alligencies to TFC, I would probably support the Impact over TFC, just becuase to me that is what football should look like. I am not saying that it is better, althougt I would say that you can get better results with less tallent, it is just what I love. Most of those who support TFC hate it, but some of this is because we do have a heavy English influence. I have to admit that most would find it boring, I am just not one of them, I find most MLS footy increadbly unineresting. I want to be clear I am not arguing, I am just telling you what my thought has been for some time.

[Roogsy]

Roogsy a response to you earlier comment.

I agree that is the issue, and it comes down to taste. I love the way Montreal plays. I am having a personal debate over this. I have to tell you if both the Impact and TFC were in the same city and I had no preset alligencies to TFC, I would probably support the Impact over TFC, just becuase to me that is what football should look like. I am not saying that it is better, althougt I would say that you can get better results with less tallent, it is just what I love. Most of those who support TFC hate it, but some of this is because we do have a heavy English influence. I have to admit that most would find it boring, I am just not one of them, I find most MLS footy increadbly unineresting. I want to be clear I am not arguing, I am just telling you what my thought has been for some time.

I can't disagree with this. Attractive football requires a much higher degree of talent that is beyond being taught. If you want results, you have to implement an effective system and it simply comes down to this defensive type of football.

Unfortunately, it only gets you so far. I think the Mexican teams are going to destroy the Impact.

[Beach_Red]

Shoot...even the biggest teams in the world have massive scouting systems in South America. Why are we not doing that instead of looking at castoffs?

Look in the other thread about TFC salaries, castoffs are all we can afford. And, as you say, all the biggest teams in the world have MASSIVE scouting systems in South America.

But still, the big teams can't sign them all and some of those South (and Central) American "castoffs" are likely to be quality players. Some of them will look at $200,000 a season as good money (though add in the expenses of moving to another country and all that and it really only competes with about $150,000 at home. Still, there must be a lot of guys getting $150,000 a year in South America who are good players).

It's too bad Ruiz didn't do better here. Did he get a fair chance? Was he not interested in playing here at all? I guess this is for another thread.

[trane]

I can't disagree with this. Attractive football requires a much higher degree of talent that is beyond being taught. If you want results, you have to implement an effective system and it simply comes down to this defensive type of football.

Unfortunately, it only gets you so far. I think the Mexican teams are going to destroy the Impact.

At some point lack of tallent catches up. The Mexican league for my money is head and shoulders over the MLS, never mind the USL, particular teams like America, Tigress ect. [ I think I am getting the names right]. Even getting as far as they have has been an achievment for Montreal.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

If only to keep with my tradition! LOL!

But I think it is painfully obvious that the final 4 teams had somewhat of a "Latin" flavour and/or a DP.

This offseason will be dominated by DP talk for TFC. But I hope what isn't overlooked is Mo's need to look down south for some effective and cost-effecient roleplayers. Most teams in the MLS have found them to be effective.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200....html#?eref=T1

Agreed. Right now they fit in well in this league, MLS favours a slower more technical style, and South Americans are generally fairly excellent at that kind of game. Of course, you could also get some Italians...

But just to respond to what's being discussed, i LIKE the English style of football. Not what's being played right now in the Premiership, but the way they traditionally have played. People forget it, but football is a contact sport. Shoulder barges and hard tackles have lost their place in the modern game because these days if you go within a foot of someone they fall over. I dunno, I would much rather watch a Championship or League One match these days than the Premier League. Teams play attacking football, but it isn't the blindingly quick smack the ball forward as quick as possible and hope for the best style that dominates the Premier League these days, it's physical, exciting football, and while the players may not have the sick omfgz ronaldinho skillz, I still like it. The Premier League is TOO fast these days, there's no room for skill or even to pick out a pass. Guys just hammer it around and if the pass makes it through it either means you're a star player or you got lucky.

And another thing- if there were defenders like Julian Dicks in MLS, I don't think the South Americans would run quite as wild.

[trane]

Agreed. Right now they fit in well in this league, MLS favours a slower more technical style, and South Americans are generally fairly excellent at that kind of game. Of course, you could also get some Italians...

But just to respond to what's being discussed, i LIKE the English style of football. Not what's being played right now in the Premiership, but the way they traditionally have played. People forget it, but football is a contact sport. Shoulder barges and hard tackles have lost their place in the modern game because these days if you go within a foot of someone they fall over. I dunno, I would much rather watch a Championship or League One match these days than the Premier League. Teams play attacking football, but it isn't the blinding smack the ball forward as quick as possible and hope for the best style that dominates the Premier League these days, it's physical, exciting football, and while the players may not have the sick omfgz ronaldinho skillz, I still like it.

And another thing- if there were defenders like Julian Dicks in MLS, I don't think the South Americans would run quite as wild.

That is the problem in all leagues, it is my biggest complaint, contact is not a foul. However, I would say that in the EPL it realy varies from ref to ref, some refs are realy good at allowing physicality, some are way to quick with the call.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

In recent years English refs seem to have drifted more towards the way refs call games in continental Europe IMO, but they still are more lenient about contact.

Dunno if you saw though, but a couple weeks ago Phil Neville clearly won the ball off of Cristiano Ronaldo but went in aggressively and was booked for it...

[trane]

^ I saw, I am an Everton supporter. A couple a week prior to that I think it was against Bolton a defender again got the ball cleanly, Ronaldo triped, and was given a penatly. Even Ronalo admitted that it was not a faul. I agree that there is too much of this.

[Roogsy]

Look in the other thread about TFC salaries, castoffs are all we can afford. And, as you say, all the biggest teams in the world have MASSIVE scouting systems in South America.

But still, the big teams can't sign them all and some of those South (and Central) American "castoffs" are likely to be quality players. Some of them will look at $200,000 a season as good money (though add in the expenses of moving to another country and all that and it really only competes with about $150,000 at home. Still, there must be a lot of guys getting $150,000 a year in South America who are good players).

It's too bad Ruiz didn't do better here. Did he get a fair chance? Was he not interested in playing here at all? I guess this is for another thread.

I think your numbers are off.

The best of the best of Central America, someone like Amado Guevara only asked for $185k from us.

Can you imagine a role player asking that? Highly unlikely. Under 100k, we can get players that will consistenly contribute to results.

What can we get for 100k from European players?

That being said...the top players in South America will command millions in transfer fees from their old clubs. So in a way, yes we are looking for the "castoffs", those that will wind up with no new contract after finishing an old one. But a role player in the South American league can be a big contributor in the MLS. We are talking Copa Libertadores quality here people. The only thing that rivals the Copa in quality, is the European competitions.

[ACSertL]

Why not look in India? Bayern are.

http://www.goal.com/en/news/1263/ind...-india-academy

[Roogsy]

Asia is a tough one to gauge. They simply have not shown any development outside the China/Korea/Japan angle to justify the costs of scouting there. And even then, you are talking about leagues that now have sufficient money to retain these players (especially Japan) where making the jump to MLS would need to be a substantial earnings bonus.

I am not saying there couldn't be decent Indian footballers that would come cheap...the question is how do you find them in a country of 1billion people?

[ACSertL]

Asia is a tough one to gauge. They simply have not shown any development outside the China/Korea/Japan angle to justify the costs of scouting there. And even then, you are talking about leagues that now have sufficient money to retain these players (especially Japan) where making the jump to MLS would need to be a substantial earnings bonus.

I am not saying there couldn't be decent Indian footballers that would come cheap...the question is how do you find them in a country of 1billion people?

I agree on your points about finding potential needles in haystacks. It is not necessarily financially viable for a team like TFC to have one or two scouts covering a population that size whereas Bayern can open an academy. I just posted the article to basically state that looking outside Europe is a good way to go about it. Hell even smaller leagues in Europe might be a good way to go.

[Beach_Red]

I think your numbers are off.

The best of the best of Central America, someone like Amado Guevara only asked for $185k from us.

Can you imagine a role player asking that? Highly unlikely. Under 100k, we can get players that will consistenly contribute to results.

What can we get for 100k from European players?

That being said...the top players in South America will command millions in transfer fees from their old clubs. So in a way, yes we are looking for the "castoffs", those that will wind up with no new contract after finishing an old one. But a role player in the South American league can be a big contributor in the MLS. We are talking Copa Libertadores quality here people. The only thing that rivals the Copa in quality, is the European competitions.

I went for high end .

The transfer fee is the really tough one. Still, there are likely many players who would take the role player money, somewhere between Chad Barrett's $53,000 and Dunivant's $104,000. I still think you'd have to pay a slight premium, say a guy gets offered $60,000 to stay in his home country you'd be looking at $75 or $80 grand to move to Canada for six months, but there could still be some good deals.

As for Guevara, that may be a special case - if he had been able to get along with his previous MLS teams he'd likely be getting as much as Ruiz's $400,000 now. TFC took a chance on Guevara and "attitude" and it's working out, at least for the $185k - if he was getting $400k I think we'd all be saying it was a mistake to get him.

[J .]

Contrary to what people think, MLS isn't considered a slow technical league. I've thought that for ages. Its very physical and dependant on physical ability. A few players get by with weaker physiques, but have great skill. Blanco for one. However, most of the other players, the majority rely on physical ability and are not really tactical.

Also, Montreal did play well against a Mexican team, I forget which, but Montreal has played it smart and have been very timely.

From Jason Kreis, "I wasn't that familiar with the [South American] leagues, but after going down there and watching it, I recognized that they play at a pace that is similar to ours. It's not a slow game. It's not a tactical and methodical game where players just knock the ball looking for seams, looking for opportunities. They play at a level and at a pace and with athleticism that is very similar to ours."



I do not care where people come from, this latino thing is to me crazy. From what I see, they are like everyone else, some are good, some ok, others bad. Guevara, Velez, Ruiz, meet Canadians Brennan, Harmse and Reda.

In fact, I would rather put in 100,000 into developing Canadian kids then sign a guy just because he is Latino. By birthright then Velez and Ruiz should have been great but they were mediocre and a failure respectively. Heck, even Guevara was not where I thought he would be this year.

However, our squad is a defender and a forward away from the playoffs. If Ricketts learns to play each game and JoSmith gets his legs under control, those two could cause teams problems on the wings. Mo should go with two guys who fit into our system. A DP striker and a top quality defender. That will bag us a few wins over draws and we would be were the shitebulls are now.

Personally, I hope we get Will Johnson from RSL. Canadian.

[Brooker]

nah lets just bring Martin Brittain back for another trial.

Kiki still in the k-league? lol.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I'm saying last off season everyone was screaming and yelling because DC had signed all these players, and Mo hadn't signed anyone. I'm trying to inject a little perspective.
.

And we waited 4 weeks into the season until Mo assembled the squad he wanted at the start of the season. We lost most of those games and the team barely gelled before he had to make more additions. Those screamers were right. Mo should have signed someone.

[rocker]

Mo should have signed someone.

"someone"? you mean any of those many players he trialed in the spring, like Musampa?

[Roogsy]

I keep hearing Velez included in the Latino issue.

Without wanting to offend, let's remember here please that Puerto Rico is not a soccer country. That's like saying Jamaica should be good in basketball because they are "black".

I am talking about scouting in countries where kids play soccer from dawn to dusk. Do we see that in Canada? When visiting Latin American countries, I see kids playing with raggedy old soccer balls that are falling apart in dirt lots in their sandals. These kids come out of these neighbourhoods with soccer balls basically stuck to their feet like magnets. That's the skill I would like to see more of on TFC.

And J...TFC already dumps a ton of money into "Canadian kids". Do you think the Academy makes any money? It's a huge investment for the team. THAT is the development I want to see. On the men's team, I am not looking for "development" anymore, I am looking for winners and for 100k, you get a hell of a lot more in a Colombian or Salvadorean player than you would in a Canadian kid. Sorry.

Not to mention...every North American kid we develop (US and Canadian) winds up leaving us for a quarter of the season on national duty. I am tired of it. Especially when the CMNT is still run by DM and going nowhere.

[giambac]

If only to keep with my tradition! LOL!

But I think it is painfully obvious that the final 4 teams had somewhat of a "Latin" flavour and/or a DP.

This offseason will be dominated by DP talk for TFC. But I hope what isn't overlooked is Mo's need to look down south for some effective and cost-effecient roleplayers. Most teams in the MLS have found them to be effective.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200....html#?eref=T1

Mo doesn't belive in looking down south or in central or south america or in eastern europe. everyone knows that.

He is only interested in the UK group of countries