On the bright side there is plenty of time left in the season for ML$E to come up with a fantastic apology letter for STH's.. It will sound something like this 'we screwed up, we're sorry. But as a reward to our fan base we won't raise our over priced tickets for the coming year, while we rebuild this mess we caused'
Pathetic.. Does anyone know when TSN/Rogers take control of this mess? First thing I would love to see is a complete over haul of the upper management..
This team needs a real president at the top. Anselmi would only be making budgeting decisions every calender year. Many people have said TFC is missing this role within the organization, many years of experiance in the world of footbal would have seriously helped since day 1.
It is quite possible that we hired the right guy with the wrong time line.Originally Posted by Roogsy
Long term, Winter's commitment to the 4-3-3 might indeed pay dividends. That said, in a league that is salary capped, with import quotas and relies on homegrown talent... the kind developed by the forward thinking Ontario Soccer Association... then "long term" is the key phrase.
It is quite possible that Klinsmann oversold the outcomes while under selling the cost (ie. time investment required) to make it happen.
You say we hired the wrong guy. The guy wasn't hired and asked to make a plan. The 4-3-3 plan was here before he got here, sold by Klinsmann in a nice little package. We may have the wrong plan if the desire is short term turnaround. At which point, we may want to ensure Winter stays with the Academy and player development and find a coach that can make the most out of what we have.
(how's that for a turnaround in opinion?)
your not far off, imo its many things.
1. striker/cf not putting enough pressure on the opposing teams backline by not closing down the ball quick enough/or at all.
(mls is about pressurizing weak teams/defences to make mistakes and respond with goals when given the opportunity)
2. Games are won in the midfield, and there is no one making key stops in that area, allowing the ball to be rammed down the back lines throats.
3. not transitioning quick enough, with crisp passes going forward and making the right decisions at the right time 80% of the time.
But like I said b4, its usually men vs boys out there.
we dont look like a senior team the way we play the game, we look like an academy team. To many glaring errors and missed chance to look truely professional.
- doubleup
Is the Ajax system not flexible? I dont understand why management refuse to change formations, i understand its part of the big picture and needs to be kept consistant throughout the team but every big club in the world adjusts there formation to the opposition. I wonder if TFC would play a 4-3-3 against Barca in a real match, i think every team in the world who faces them puts 11 men behind the ball.
there are 2 camps/cultures of thought
-Do what you say you would do! Let Winter do his job and see it through to the end, when time is up Evaluate and BE Accountable
OR
-Pull the plug before it gets any worse! RISK with another coach and HOPE for the best. EXPECT the STAFF and PLAYERS TO KEEP THEIR PROMISES, WHILE NOT KEEPING YOURS!
Talk about setting the culture!
I disagree. I think he is the wrong guy not because of the system but because I feel he is the wrong guy to employ it.
Frankly, I am formation-neutral. I don't care if we play 4-3-3, 4-4-2 or 9-1, as long as it is effective. If there is a lesson in this league it's that any system works if it is deployed effectively. KC plays an adjustable 4-3-3, LA plays a 4-4-2, both work well. It's the coach that makes it work. Knowing the parts, adjusting and then adding pieces here and there as need be.
Winter has not shown able to do that.
Therefore the logical conclusion is that the problem isn't with the system, it's with the tacticitian employing it.
In addition, if your argument is that Klinnsman oversold MLSE on the aspects of this new plan, one of the elements of that plan is Winter, since he recommended him, therefore making him part of the problem of the oversold plan.
I guess my ultimate point is that regardless if Winter is wrong because he has deficiencies or because of the urgent need for shorter term results, the ultimate conclusion is the same, he is still the wrong guy for the job that we needed hired in 2011 under these very specific circumstances. If your argument is that the conditions weren't right but under other circumstances he'd do better, fine, I don't agree but it doesn't change the actual facts, that keeping him here doesn't change the circumstances and conditions of this team. I would argue the circumstances becomes even more acute and urgent with each passing game. Therefore, keeping him on for the reason of "not having a 7th coach in 7 years" is hardly a recipe for success. You keep a manager on because you believe he is the right guy for the job and will have success, not because you are tired of going through people in that position.
Last edited by Roogsy; 04-15-2012 at 11:53 AM.
I would argue you have mischaracterized one set of circumstances in favour of another. In both circumstances there are elements of risk and hope. On the risk side, you are risking different consequences. On the hope side, we don't find ourselves hoping only if we change coaches. We are now in a situation where either situation entails a large degree of hope the team can turn it around, not just if we change coaches but also if we keep Winter on.
0-5. Aquiring new players, coaches or upper management will all be rushed decisions to try and save the season.
One thing I'll say to continuing the revolving door in coaching over trying to break our own record setting player turnaround is that it doesn't count against our cap...
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
This is a North American phenomenon...where supporting a sports team is less about loyalty to the club and the city, and more akin to a consumer purchasing an items at the local mall. If the customer isn't "satisfied", he moves his investment (in this case, his time and emotional support) to a different product (team).
AWAY TRIPS:
March 2008 - Columbus; March 2009 - Kansas City; April 2010 - New England; July 2010 - Philadelphia.
Its funny, its so bad that I don't want to change anything...
Normally when something like this goes on, a passionate supporter like me would be screaming for changes, new leaders, etc etc etc - but I'm not...
I don't know if I have been beaten into submission, or I think why change and institute turmoil with another coach, I really don't know...
I'm just so beaten down, just 5-games, I'm considering just giving up - and that is not in my nature at all...
Maybe its other things in life that have sucked the life out of me... Maybe its the fact I used to look to this team to distract me from the shitty things in life and give me something to believe in and now that's gone...
I really don't know...
I have been one of the biggest supporters and cheerleaders (for lack of a better word) for this club since day-1, I love them, love wearing the jersey, the jacket, I know the lads on the pitch are trying, they care, but I am beaten down with losing...
I just hope the lads have more in them than me - I really do, b/c my tank is almost empty...
I still believe in the effort and passion of the boys on the pitch - I hope they know that...
All I know is, for the first time ever, I'm considering not renewing my tickets and just watching on tv - its just a game, its just a sport, but losing has sucked the life out of me right now...
Tomorrow's a new day - I just need something to bring the fight back into me...
Carts...
"...Money wasn't tight, but it like, it wasn't right..."
Not sure if this is true or not or what to make of it, but it seems MLSE employees want to diminish the bad discussion of poor results:
Jennifer Benson @wordonbaystreet
4 MLSE employees exposed after creating accounts to #TFC discussion forum hot-spot redpatchboys.ca. Used accounts to mitigate bad sentiment.
http://twitter.com/#!/wordonbaystree...21187896098816
Not sure if this real or just BS.
When you're treated like a cashcow it shouldn't be surprising if the consumer revolts when the product is substandard.
One-sided loyalty is nothing to take pride in.
So, you keep the plan? A "Total Football" approach that relies on technical skill that can be filled through both a limited International Roster quota and our illustrious development model with the Ontario Soccer Association to feed TFC-Academy with technically sound players in order to expect a short turn around? ie. this season
Winter has shown an ability to adapt to games in the CCL, getting farther than nearly every other MLS team since the competition began (RSL exception). I'm skeptical it can work over the short term but fully believe that it will benefit the organization over the long term.
When you really cut to the chase, the issue isn't with the plan or Winter's 50/50 ability to implement it or the players we have. It really comes down to the fact that if we wanted to evaluate our progress against objectives and those aspects (Winter, players, Mariner, the plan itself), Tom Anselmi would have to look at his pocket guide given to him by Klinsmann in order to make a decision. Or he would have to cut another cheque to have Klinsmann come back and tell him what to do.
Either or, he is paralyzed by a lack of experience and knowledge and that is why we are where we are.
That is the basis of all of our problems.
as much as I hate the way the team has been playing lately, I think it should be known that we are not happy. I would love to see Toronto hoist the league cup or win the champions league and see that star above the teams crest. Its just really tough and frustrating supporting a team that does not play like a team sometimes and look as though they do not want to even be there sometimes. will i go continue to watch the games live? possibly. I will always be reading up on the team and watching the games on tv, I just want what everyone wants. Changes. how that happens I do not know. what I do know is if somethings not working its time to go back to the drawing board and try to find the issue and fix it. I want to see some experimentation from Winter.
One prime example is this, its obvious Dunfield is not playing well, so how about Winter experiments and places someone else, if that doesn't work try somebody else. What im trying to say is fiddle around with the squad. if you see duos working great together pair them up. we need a squad that has great chemistry don't just put somebody to plug a hole in the squad. I want to see Winter play around with the squad.
Would not surprise me if it were true...
Where'd she get that info?
Toronto FC baby...best team everrrrrrrrrr -Jozy
I definitely think Anselmi is part of the problem but not the biggest part & I always believe you work on the solvable problems not the ones you can't fix. New ownership will resolve TA in time but whether he stays or goes will not make Winter more effective. So in my opinion it's a red herring on the issue of Tfc's performance.
So I was googling random stuff today and the subject came up of slavery vs. indentured servitude. Which raised the question in my head, which one is rooting for TFC closer to? lol
Hi Jack,
I don't know where Jennifer Benson found that information. I just saw that tweet while browsing through #TFC on twitter and saw it. Thought I would post it. Not sure if it's true or just BS.
Maybe it's the difference between 'clubs' and 'franchises.' These days, any team with a single owner is really just a franchise. Maybe it's to feed the owner's ego, maybe it's to make money, either way the paying customers are just that, customers. And there's no shame in being a customer but we shouldn't pretend that we're anything else.
One of her other tweets said supporters are organizing a walk-out which is news to me so her info maybe dodgy.
This quote from Ives is interesting. As usual Ives gets the meaning of it completely wrong, which isn't suprising as he's not particularly bright or insightful. It's not about NCAA or US born per se, but that TFC has embarked on a strategy of developing local players into professional footballers. I think we lose sight of that a bit. Winter wasn't brought in to implement a 4-3-3 with the first team. That's part of it of course, but he was really brought in to create an entire history and way of playing that we've never had. One that is linked to the development of football at the regional level in Toronto. The reason TFC have fewer American/NCAA players is that we have Canadian/Academy players.
This is in complete contrast to what Montreal and Vancouver are doing. They both have coaches that don't give a shit at all about Canadian football and have no stake, personal or otherwise, in seeing local players succeed as professionals. They've built their entire teams around non-Canadian players. The real irony to me is that we've brought this guy over from the Netherlands who is by far more imbedded in football here than any of these other coaches who have been coaching in North America for years. You think Jesse Marsch gives a shit at all about trying to bring Montrealers into the first team? Winter legitimately cares about this stuff.
Which is where I was going with the "long term" thing. Right plan with a long timeline considering it relies on players coming out of the OSA right now to fill the Academy ranks.
The basis of the plan is excellent. I just feel that they underestimated (or were undersold) on the time it would take to make it happen.
Maybe they had good volunteer coaches but for a system that relies on technical skill, this is a glaring weakness that can only be addressed over time.
^ I agree, I'm glad we're taking the long road in terms of developing our own players. I think that's smart. That being said, we need to differentiate between today and the future. Today, we don't have many academy products who are capable of starting and doing the job. In the long-run, more will trickle in.
Part of what Ives is pointing to in that quote is irrelevant IMO. Who cares where you get your talent from, as long as they are effective. KC is effective because their players are talented, not because they played US college ball.
When is Kovermanns contract up?
There's no way he should be on DP money
well i've got to leave the stadium at some point. they don't just let me live there
geesh MLSE
Um... Not saying it ISNT true, but what are the chances that WE would hear it from HER?
Yay twitter, the broken telephone of modern times...
Will this academy system work in North America? Won't the very best players jump to higher paying leagues and many of the mid-level players like the idea of a university education? They can always come back into MLS through the draft.
RSL is basing its development on the NFL model which is what MLS wants, isn't it? Teams don't develop players individually, the NCAA develops a pool of players the pro teams draw from. Of course soccer, with players available from around the world is different, so it's not an exact model but MLS knows that for marketing they need as many Americans in the league as possible.
In terms of Winter continuing as manager. The overriding thing for me is does he still have the players? Can't say this for sure, but I think if you polled them and asked if they support him you would get an overwhelming yes.
The other thing to consider, for every Chelsea that changes managers and gets some (limited) success, you have a Wolves. Does anyone really think based on our history we'd be the Chelsea? I highly doubt it. In fact, given the lack of skilled managers sitting around out there waiting for lucrative MLS jobs, I'm confident we'd be the Wolves, who had no one ready to replace McCarthy when he went.
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