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  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    Also this:

    LEGEND. He did that carrying an injury in quite a bit of pain, a goal that won't be forgotten.

    It looks like it's probably Sloane who Jozy embraces after the goal and may be the source of the high pitched screaming after the goal that one faintly hears above the crowd. Never saw confirmation of that though.


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    ^ I never know which big Jozy goal is my favourite. There are so many.

    The one where single-handedly he broke Montreal down and passed to Ricketts to clinch the win in extra time is probably the winner - and he didn't even score it. But the emotion of that moment...

    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    I watched a few Sunderland games at the time. I remember one move where he had the ball inside the box on the left, just outside of the six yard box. He went to cross, and I think his plant foot nudged the ball and he totally missed it. Went absolutely flying over his ass and out of play beside the goal. Just the worst example of everything that had gone wrong for him there. I was just shaking my head, and enjoyed laughing at him since he was American.

    When I heard we were swapping Jermain Defoe for Jozy that moment was still stuck in my mind (I think it was about 6 weeks before). I thought it was an absolute disaster move for TFC, especially since I really liked JD, being someone who kinda followed Spurs when Norwich isn't in the PL (which Mighty DM will remind me is often). For sure I was all over the RPB boards with criticism and doom-saying. Jozy really won me over.
    I didn't know what to think, but I sure remember people saying that.

    The supporters there called him "Dozy Anti-score". That still cracks me up. They are so good at that stuff over there.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    ^ I never know which big Jozy goal is my favourite. There are so many.

    The one where single-handedly he broke Montreal down and passed to Ricketts to clinch the win in extra time is probably the winner - and he didn't even score it. But the emotion of that moment...
    So many good memories of Jozy...


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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I didn't know what to think, but I sure remember people saying that.

    The supporters there called him "Dozy Anti-score". That still cracks me up. They are so good at that stuff over there.
    Some of the stuff they come up with is really clever unfortunately there was a crap ton of racist abuse hurled at Jozy from the Sunderland fans as well. When you combine that with all the racist crap he dealt with in Holland it’s easy to see why he has a chip on his shoulder.

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    Just listened to MLS Extra Time. They think Jozy could be a max TAM player, which certainly explains why TFC are hoping they can do a buyout at something less than 100 cents on the dollar.

    They think the likeliest landing spots for him are Orlando, SKC and Colorado.

    (Also they think he could maybe score 25 goals. )
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  7. #367
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    From the other thread... question...

    Regarding Jozy... curiosity cold killed this cat... for argument sake...
    I get he's likely gone... I also get TFC and Jozy camps are likely leveraging each others positions...
    Until any perceived or hard deadlines to maximize any outcomes...
    I also get for insurance reasons and Jozy's injury history it would simply not be worth it...
    However, if TFC is expecting him at camp and he does not show up, is there a MLS mechanism...
    A precedent to limit or void his remaining contract earnings besides the understood off-season unilateral buy-out clause?
    Likely very messy and unnecessary; MLSPA.
    Just wondering.
    Last edited by Mr. Inbetween; 01-21-2022 at 06:15 PM.

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gringo Starr View Post
    Some of the stuff they come up with is really clever unfortunately there was a crap ton of racist abuse hurled at Jozy from the Sunderland fans as well. When you combine that with all the racist crap he dealt with in Holland it’s easy to see why he has a chip on his shoulder.
    It goes even deeper than that. He got into a spat with the club and teammates shortly after he joined Sunderland. The scuttlebutt was that the first-teamers were entitled and undisciplined, and when they went out partying together a night or two before a game, he refused to go with them.

    That led to a bustup where they basically refused to acknowledge him on the pitch, which is why even when he was standing in five feet of open space they wouldn't cross or pass to him. It was a team playing as individuals anyway, but it basically limited his touches to junk.

    Their manager also tried to get him more involved, perhaps unware of this, by playing him wide for a bunch of games, but he was basically set up to fail from the day he got there. I watched all their games at the time and he was just a ghost on the pitch.

    Even when they benched him for a period, the guys getting time ahead of him did no better. I think their top scorer that year had five goals, or something like that. He managed to be the striker on two of the worst teams in Premier League history, so...

    Stick an in-form Jozy Altidore -- the guy who scored 39 goals in Holland and a pair against Spain for the U.S. -- on a GOOD premiership team, or even a mediocre one, and there would be no debate that he isnt' even close to the worst premiership striker ever.

  9. #369
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    https://somosfanaticos.fans/br/futeb...0121-0009.html

    This Brazilian site says Altidore is being shopped to teams there.

  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Blast from the past: Terrence Boyd is apparently going to Kaiserslautern.

    (He's been in the German Third Div since leaving us and has scored fairly regularly.)

    https://www.der-betze-brennt.de/aktu...rence-boyd.php
    Quote taken from another thread... sort of, kind of, I would say highlights your point in a general sense about Jozy.
    Just like Jozy didn't work out at Sunderland, Boyd didn't at TFC.
    Didn't, doesn't, won't, mean that a player can't, couldn't, wouldn't contribute or re-emerge with a chance at another club.
    I mean IIRC Jozy at NYRB, AZ, TFC & USMNT seemed to have had almost a goal per other game played production rate.
    Close to 50%; not bad for a striker IMO.
    I think his stint with The Black Cats was an obvious aberration and your offered insight would certainly explain it.
    I think that some of disdain expressed at him while at SAFC and in the EPL and even now should be tempered in this context.
    Last edited by Mr. Inbetween; 01-22-2022 at 08:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Inbetween View Post
    I think that some of disdain expressed at him while at SAFC and in the EPL and even now should be tempered in this context.
    Oh, without a doubt. But that's not really the English way when it comes to Americans. I grew up there and there's both a pervasive cultural fascination with its "bigness" -- freedom, jingoism, metropolises etc -- and an utter contempt for its people as stupid, arrogant and loud.

    Much of this I think stems from the Second World War and the post-war period. Britons were generally superior in their attitudes due to ruling much of the colonial globe for three centuries and when America was needed to win the war, they got rather tired of hearing "without our help you'd all be speaking German" from a country that stayed out of it -- and where 40% of the polled population supported Hitler -- until absolutely necessary.

    So they love American things, but can't stand Americans. The notion that one might start as a striker on a Premiership team is pretty anathema to them. Unless the player pulls of a Dempsey or McBride and starts scoring right away, they're going to go hammer and tongs at him. Add in that he's African American and there's deep, pervasive racism in England and you had a recipe for wanting him to fail from the second he got there.

    Also after Kezman and a few others -- and Jozy's equally unsuccessful Hull loan -- there was deep suspicion that the Eredivisie doesn't produce strikers good enough for the Premier League.

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    Jozy also had problems in his personal life while he was at Sunderland. He has talked about that before.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Jozy’s always been a big fish small pond, kind of guy. I don’t buy the “circumstancial” shit at Sunderland he was always poor in big leagues.

    Top 5 Leagues: 3 Goals, 79 Games
    MLS/Turkey/Holland: 117 Goals, 254 Games

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    Jozy’s always been a big fish small pond, kind of guy. I don’t buy the “circumstancial” shit at Sunderland he was always poor in big leagues.

    Top 5 League Record: 3 Goals, 79 Games
    MLS/Turkey/Holland: 117 Goals, 254 Games


    I am beginning to think you don’t rate Jozy…
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    Jozy’s always been a big fish small pond, kind of guy. I don’t buy the “circumstancial” shit at Sunderland he was always poor in big leagues.

    Top 5 Leagues: 3 Goals, 79 Games
    MLS/Turkey/Holland: 117 Goals, 254 Games
    He played for HULL and SUNDERLAND, two of the worst teams in the last thirty years of the English top flight. Both played anti-football where every man was largely for himself. It's not representative of his potential.

    There are a lot of strikers who aren't world class but still put in good numbers in the Premier League and La Liga because they're on good teams that create chances for them. He didn't get that luxury.

    It's simplistic to point at the league and say "that was the only reason" and ignore who he was playing for.
    Last edited by jloome; 01-22-2022 at 01:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    He played for HULL and SUNDERLAND, two of the worst teams in the last thirty years of the English top flight. Both played anti-football where every man was largely for himself. It's not representative of his potential.

    There are a lot of strikers who aren't world class but still put in good numbers in the Premier League and La Liga because they're on good teams that create chances for them. He didn't get that luxury.

    It's simplistic to point at the league and say "that was the only reason" and ignore who he was playing for.
    Jozy at Sunderland: 1 Goal, 42 Matches
    Defoe at Sunderland: 34 Goals, 87 Matches

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    Jozy at Sunderland: 1 Goal, 42 Matches
    Defoe at Sunderland: 34 Goals, 87 Matches
    Framed as you have... mathematically... of course it seems obvious and undeniable...
    On the flip-side...
    I think, and believe jloome may also be suggesting, it is a little more nuanced then that... it is the little things, of time and place...
    ...coaches and systems... off and on-field player on goings, etc. ...
    Defoe on loan 00-01 at AFC Bournemouth: 18Gls w/ 29Apps --- Defoe 17-20 at AFC Bournemouth: 4Gls w/ 28Apps.
    Defoe on loan 19-20 at Rangers: 21Gls w/ 37Apps --- Defoe 20-22 at Rangers: 4Gls w/ 17Apps.

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    Nobody has had a more hard to sum up, vexing career than Jozy.

    No escaping that 1 goal in 42 games at Sunderland is pretty tough.
    No escaping that scoring 30+ goals in a single season in the Netherlands is incredible, I am not sure anyone has done that since he did.
    No escaping that he has been brutally plagued by injuries.

    Also no escaping that you can make any list of premiere all time MLS strikers you want, Keane, Donovan, BWP, Villa, Ibra, Wondo, Martinez, help yourself... and none will come close to doing what Jozy did starting post season 2016, through CCL 2018.
    Last edited by ensco; 01-22-2022 at 03:21 PM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    Jozy at Sunderland: 1 Goal, 42 Matches
    Defoe at Sunderland: 34 Goals, 87 Matches
    Defoe is the 15th leading scorer all time in the Premiership. He WAS world-class. I watched him at Sunderland and he created most of his own goals with speed, beating backlines on the break.

    Jozy is not Jermain Defoe. And Defoe went on to score more goals after that at Rangers. He's 39 and there's a bidding war on for him between Sunderland and Cambridge now to keep playing in League One.

    If Defoe had settled here and stayed healthy, he'd have scored 20 a year in his sleep.

    I'm NOT saying Jozy was a world-class player but he was by no means the worst striker ever in the Premiership.
    Last edited by jloome; 01-22-2022 at 05:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Defoe is the 15th leading scorer all time in the Premiership. He WAS world-class. I watched him at Sunderland and he created most of his own goals with speed, beating backlines on the break.

    Jozy is not Jermain Defoe. And Defoe went on to score more goals after that at Rangers. He's 39 and there's a bidding war on for him between Sunderland and Cambridge now to keep playing in League One.

    If Defoe had settled here and stayed healthy, he'd have scored 20 a year in his sleep.

    I'm NOT saying Jozy was a world-class player but he was by no means the worst striker ever in the Premiership.
    Here's all of Defoe's goals for Sunderland. Got some service for sure, but he created a lot of those goals out of nothing himself.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFcKr5T09CI

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    I'm NOT saying Jozy was a world-class player but he was by no means the worst striker ever in the Premiership.

    Maybe... Premiership one goal wonder, perennial striker Simon Cox; WBA V Spurs?

    Its Sunday = Funday; Kidding... I am starting to like the Internet!

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    Quote Originally Posted by noxx98 View Post
    Here's all of Defoe's goals for Sunderland. Got some service for sure, but he created a lot of those goals out of nothing himself.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFcKr5T09CI
    Wow, watching this, you can make the case that Defoe was the greatest MLS player ever, just in terms of being an elite “top 100 in the world” player in his prime.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    And like a lot of players, both Defoe & Jozy's abilities were dependent upon the environment, the system on the field & their health.

    Defoe when here was in a crappy environment for him to succeed - away from home specifically - which really tanked his quality that year.

    Jozy was in a bad one in Sunderland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Wow, watching this, you can make the case that Defoe was the greatest MLS player ever, just in terms of being an elite “top 100 in the world” player in his prime.
    Yes you certainly can. Damn the Bloody Mess.
    I guess he just couldn't separate himself from Family and the Island. Unsettled... may have been the phrase... lots going on I think.
    Class striker. Was great at WHU; you could see his future. The what ifs of relegation fall-out IIRC.
    Genoa please...

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    Sunderland was a complete and utter shit show, and didn't work to Jozy's strength which is movement. They tried to use him like a hold up player like Chris Wood when, at his best, he is about interchange and movement - almost a subtle kind of racist stereotyping: he's a big black american so should play with his back to goal. And they didnt have anyone to play off him like Seba did, and help create the space and movement he thrives from. Also, I don't care how he was at Sunderland. He's been a legend here.

    The posters who attack him on these boards essentially are blaming him for his own injuries, and conveniently forget that he scored critical goals for us playing hurt. in fact his ankle injury became so chronic that he required surgery.

    I loved the 2-2 goal in the Montreal game. Incredible skill from Seba and Jozy, and what a run by Jozy. The film afterwards that had Vanney yelling "don't change the play" was fantastic. Best game ever.

    Still confused as to why he is not training. It does not make sense for him or for the club.

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    There's alot of nuance to the Jozy in Europe debate. I fully agree that he was set up to fail, played against his strengths in a bad team. Jozy is also a confidence player, he needs to feel good and be loved to perform - you could even see that at TFC. In form he would go to another level, like the 2016 play offs, but even here he could be off form and look like half the player. He never had that love or that patience in Europe, at least not in the top flight. When he did have it, in a smaller but still high level pond, he would once again flourish.

    On the other hand, it's not just Sunderland - it's Sunderland, Hull and Villarreal. While I think if the circumstances were right Jozy absolutely could have succeeded and had the ability, a cold hearted analysis says ~5 seasons and 3 top flight goals. It's hard to get past that. Somebody said he wasn't the worst top flight striker ever and on talent I'd absolutely agree that but in terms of production? You'd have to be pretty convincing to confidently name say 10 worse producers who had an equal level of opportunity

    Either way, that's Europe. However things end, an absolute TFC legend. I believe his last contract was the biggest contractual mistake the club has ever made but that doesn't change that. After Seba he's arguably our second best ever player, talent wise I'd personally only have Vazquez as the main argument against that and Jozy had a larger impact overall. A bonafied all time great for us who deserves the best and I hope ultimately is remembered as much. His legacy shouldn't be tainted by anything happening right now, it's not his fault he was given a contract that he'd have been an idiot to not sign
    Last edited by JoesphNdo; 01-23-2022 at 01:14 PM.

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    For the record: I don’t think Jozy is a bad player. I just think his ideal “environment” or whatever you want to call it requires him to be one of the best players on his team. There is nothing wrong with needing to be a big fish in a small pond- it’s the case for many many players who tear up lesser leagues and then struggle in top ones. But he is not a unique player as some on this board have claimed and there are many examples of strikers in this league on significantly less money putting in equal to or better contributions. Legend at this club - sure, absolutely. Free from criticism or uniquely talented? C’mon. This is MLS, no one really is. That being said, amazing what he has managed at this club having played under 50% of the minutes in the last 6 seasons.

    Aside: Jozy cannot be blamed for his contract, if I were him I’d tell TFC to eat it on their buyout offer. They knew all the risks of handing him that extension, intimately.

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    1. Jozy’s contract was not a bad decision, and I wish people would stop saying that. Failing to extend Seba and VV or otherwise plan for their departure in an orderly fashion were the wrong decisions. Jozy’s contract was made necessary by those bad decisions and it had to be done.

    2. Nobody on this board is arguing that Jozy was one of the best strikers in the world, on a level with Harry Kane and Ibrahimovic. However, he is a fantastic striker who tore apart this league in games when it really mattered, as documented by Ensco earlier in this thread. And he was highly effective in the Netherlands and for the USMNT. He has proven himself as an elite goal scorer, and failing to succeed at a club that is itself a complete failure (Sunderland) doesn’t change that. There are loads - loads - of “strikers” who have shown nowhere near his goal scoring form, particularly in games that really matter in which clubs play very cautiously to limit chances. He deserves respect for that level of skill, which he has demonstrated again and again.
    Last edited by MightyDM; 01-24-2022 at 12:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    1. Jozy’s contract was not a bad decision, and I wish people would stop saying that. Failing to extend Seba and VV or otherwise plan for their departure in an orderly fashion were the wrong decisions. Jozy’s contract was made necessary by those bad decisions and it had to be done.

    2. Nobody on this board is arguing that Jozy was one of the best strikers in the world, on a level with Harry Kane and Ibrahimovic. However, he is a fantastic striker who tore apart this league in games when it really mattered, as documented by Ensco earlier in this thread. And he was highly effective in the Netherlands and for the USMNT. He has proven himself as an elite goal scorer, and failing to succeed at a club that is itself a complete failure (Sunderland) doesn’t change that. There are loads - loads - of “strikers” who have shown nowhere near his goal scoring form, particularly in games that really matter in which clubs play very cautiously to limit chances. He deserves respect for that level of skill, which he has demonstrated again and again.
    1. I’m not sure there was any scenario that made the Jozy contract necessary. He shouldn’t have gotten extension unless it was TAM. Point blank. His first contract was the perfect length as illustrated by his performances (or non-performances) from 2020 onward. They should have let him ride out that deal.

    2. Jozy is absolutely elite in MLS/Netherlands. No argument there. And absolutely a dude that steps up to the occasion. Man’s a baller. I just wish he wasn’t always on the treatment table as a DP in a league where that can really fuck you.

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    If you dont love Jozy, his contract is hard to take…. He needs a team around him but he was a beast and a clutch performer. If Vanney plays him to start the 2nd half, we win MLS cup in 2019. That was the perfect theatre for him and I still cannot figure out, why not. We were screaming from the 3 level to get him on.

    btw… that was one of the most impressive TFC crowds I have been a part of. We need to get back to the Cup.

 

 

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