This isn't a question of selling Giovinco. MLSE would sooner move Jozy or Michael, full stop.
Bottom line: this club needs big gates and big results this year.
Three straight years we've had the highest payroll in MLS. If we don't win this year, time to rebuild.
But on the bright side, this is our bloody year!!!
^Simple math. It's been done many times on here, not going to find it. If you don't believe me so be it.
it is a certainty that others are doing what we do by spending $5M (or less) on players, not $20M
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
For short period of time, sure. But over the long haul, the most successful team in MLS over the last decade has been it's highest spender.Originally Posted by ensco
That is a fair point.
Manning was hired by, and answers to, suits with a significant history of cheaping out on talent (calling Beach Red).
The Galaxy and Sounders are owned by a guy or guys, not a corporation with hundreds of millions of debt on it.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
There is no example in the broadcasting divisions of Bell or Rogers of either of them spending money to retain talent. They never think, "If this show is a huge hit we'll make a lot more money," they always think, "What's the cheapest we can make it for and not lose any money?"
Eh. Teams have won MLS cups and supporter's shield without DPS or just low priced DPS.
LA's success doesn't indicate that high priced DPS are the way to consistent success
Years have gone by and Ive finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: A pretty move, for the love of God.
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I dont give a damn which team or country performs it.
-Eduardo Galeano
I doubt that Seba plans on finishing his career at TFC but currently it doesn't appear he's in a hurry to go. If MLSE is eager to cash in on him in the transfer market, well, it's possible I guess.
Seems odd that there would be a sudden focus on belt-tightening from the MLS board, is TFC really losing that much money? TFC is still just a small part of MLSE's overall costs.
Last edited by Detroit_TFC; 04-26-2016 at 09:49 PM.
this has become the TFC is going fold again thread,if some club in China offers 30- 40 mil for SEBA you have to think about it.great players come and go.
If it isn't obvious, I'm just taking a wild ass guess here. Anyone got another idea as to what Larson is talking about?
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
IIRC, Bradley's contract is 3 years - not sure if there is an option. This is likely what Larson is talking about. (I don't see Larson as really thinking too much about MLSE board decisions)
This sort of ties into what you are saying - TFC has to figure out what it wants to be long term. I think that discussion will have more to do with the vision that Manning has and whether Bradley fits into that and surfing that commitment or the acquiring of another DP type player through the MLSE board.
i.e. Is the long term vision of TFC as set out by Manning best served by Bradley or by another asset.
Last edited by OgtheDim; 04-26-2016 at 10:21 PM.
Bradleys deal is six years. From Leiwekes mouthpiece when Bradley was signed...
Bradley gets an even bigger bump, a six-year, $36 million contract
I seem to recall a bunch of predictions that Bradley (especially) and Altidore would be traded to NYCFC or another American team when they were signed and I'm still waiting for those shoes to drop... I don't see us selling our biggest draw right after expanding the stadium. Giovinco will leave when he wants to leave.
I don't see him leaving to be honest. He's almost 30. Once he hits 31 he won't be making the bucks he makes here in Europe. Why would he move to China? He's staying till he stops performing.
I definitely thought/think that re Bradley, but he hasn't played well enough. we'll see.
The stadium wasn't expanded for TFC.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
His play has nothing to do with it. Moving him was never the plan. If anything, it's reasonable to assume Bradley specifically agreed to come to TFC because playing in Canada means less spotlight and pressure on him.
$20 million in payroll for MLSE is chump change. they are paying Nazim Kadri $27 million alone starting next season in his new contract for chrissake. Truly believe that TFC from a MLSE corporate perspective is looked at as a 'long play'. The Leafs are a 'mature' product with not much room for growth. The Raps are growing but they will probably need a championship to get to the next level. Remember the majority owners of MLSE, Rogers & Bell, are publicly traded entities who need to manage to the next quarter (andmanage to the stock price) but who also need to show analysts and investors that there is a plan for long term growth. TFC, and for that matter soccer, is a big part of that. Don't really believe that Manning was brought in to turn TFC into some small market club. TFC is big potatoes in MLS, but a relatively small expenditure for MLSE.
Sure, and making TV shows for CTV is chump change for Bell, an entire season of "Motive" is less than a couple of Maple Leafs salaries but that's not the issue. They still never spend as much as a US show spends because the market is too small to make it profitable.
Sure, there must be a long term plan for long term growth for TFC. Do you think it's hitting the markers so far?
MLSE is not a wholly-owned entity by either bell or Rogers, as such the profitability of MLSE goes into other income/loss not EBITDA. This means both companies are not as concerned about profitability at MLSE as there regular 100% owned businesses where every cent is important.
There is a nhl salary cap, the leafs spend basically the same on salaries whether they signed Kadri or not. Has no impact on the business. The Leafs are the the cash cow that pays for everyone at MLSE - BMO Field, seba, bradley, jozy, everything
Last edited by Onyx; 04-26-2016 at 11:26 PM.
Yeah each time that chart is put out, the same questions come back and we all go
Just to spare everybody the same discussion, you can re-read all of us hashing through the detail about the same debate about TFC numbers starting here (continue down for about 20 posts).
http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showth...=1#post1780914
Teams exaggerate their numbers, they all do it, although Leiweke probably belongs in a special category for his public statements on sponsorship .... I think Onyx's numbers are not that far off. I think we have so much scar tissue from the pre-Leiweke era, and therefore see it as a bigger abyss than it was from a marketing/financial POV - they had Frings, Koevermans, mostly similar attendance, and the 2012 CL run is probably the biggest success we ever had.
All this is a bit beside the point. TFC are spending, and therefore not earning, or offsetting losses, $10M+ more than Vancouver. That is the comparable for TFC ownership, who are famously cheap in these matters. I don't buy the arguments that this ownership is committed to being a big dog in MLS, I see no evidence of that in their other media businesses.
Who is kidding who? They'll support it to the level ratings pay for it, that's 100% how they think, and TFC's TV ratings are beyond garbage, and not moving despite the $10M+/year additional spend. Actually I'm not even sure about whether even that matters, given the way Rogers has cheaped out on hockey production and is in the process of wrecking a billion dollar ratings juggernaut. And anyone who thinks the Jays prove anything differently is not looking at the facts - we rank 13th in MLB payroll, despite there having all of a 35M person TV market that has proven it can drive enormous ratings, in a way that TFC/MLS never has, and has potential that is 10x that of TFC.
http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/
Manning didn't build LA or Seattle, he built a money ball team.
I think this is all staring us in the face, whether we like it or not.
Last edited by ensco; 04-27-2016 at 07:10 AM.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
Yeah but where did the other two architects go? Kreis went to NYCFC and Lagerway went to Seattlge both of which are big spenders. I think Manning's move to us aligns with his cohort's in that each move represented a massive step up in financial wherewithal.
There is nothing simple with MLS math. Simple meaning transparent.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
It's only complicated because they want it to be complicated because it serves their purposes. Kind of like the boilerplate in cellphone contracts.
It's about counting actual bums in seats, TV revenues, sponsorships, jerseys. They do equalization but that's 90% of it.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
My take on Larsons comments was that Vanneys contract expires end of season. Vanney will want an extension or talks to begin in the summer. Does Manning do a deal in the summer or let the season playout, hire Kreis (Kreis could come off the table in the summer? Atlanta have said they want to hire a coach soon) instead or is there pressure from board/sebas agent to get big name coach in.
Given it was in a Vanney related it thread, i've got to believe its Vanney related.
I think Occam would agree.
Look, I'm not going to argue that our contracts make short term economic sense but fact remains years of mismanagement put this club heavily on the back foot. Mo, Anselmi, and Co. basically took a hot product and drove it into irrelevance.
This is about brand repair as much as anything. Maybe the good times won't last forever but they damn well better last at least a couple of years, otherwise TFC will become largely a dormant, sleepy franchise, unable to get any traction in Toronto's crowded sports market.
Maybe this is just Tim Leiweke talking, but the vision should be larger than the previously mentioned examples of FCD and RBNY. If that's the benchmark MLS should just say it's competing with Jr. A hockey and the national lacrosse league. It will never reach mainstream.
Should it? If you owned it, and it was your dough, would you do that? Based on what evidence? NYRB spent up for years on Henry, Marquez, etc, what did it get them?
MLS/TFC are losing the battle. I can watch 10 great Euro games any weekend. I will watch Bayern-Athletico on a 60 inch set in HD this afternoon.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
I don't think many supporters would have an issue with a change in the philosophical approach to building a sustainable winner. There is no reason why we should be spending 2-3 times more than the majority of clubs in MLS just to be competitive. It's not sustainable, and will continue to be a financial anchor based on the revenue TFC can realistically generate.
Giovinco is an outlier, and must be retained at all costs because of his impact on the team's success. However, as much as I like Bradley and Altidore, there are comparable players in MLS earning a fraction of what they earn, and that's over 10 million in payroll right there. That's where I would start if I were Manning and I were under the gun from ownership.
Team revenue was projected above $50m for 2015. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...ticle16320629/
and attendance was higher than projection - no link sorry ( personal source )
MLSE doesnt think individual team cash flow, they think enterprise value and upside potential.
TFC are not bleeding cash. Unless you consider the SUM parallel business as not TFC (which technically is true).
if a presentation to a stakeholder like the city or a player union needs to get written to show there is no money, cherry pick what ever parts of the business you want to show.
MLS is all about that. Garber can say the league is losing millions at CBA time but meanwhile all kinds of rich people are waving $100M checks in the air to get in.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote