And, (sorry for the hockey reference, but) Jacques Lemaire. It is possible for players to use very different coaching styles from the way they played.Originally Posted by Canary10
And, (sorry for the hockey reference, but) Jacques Lemaire. It is possible for players to use very different coaching styles from the way they played.
Only with Preki as Director of Player Development.
^ That would be great.
I'm trying to think like MLSE....
Don't do that! That's how rumours start. Somewhere down the line Pookie is going to claim I wanted DeRo as manager!
^ Hold on. You do not?
Those who can, do.
Those who can't, teach.
Those who can, can't teach.
Preki and Winter could both "do". As could Mo, in his day.
O, Maple Leaf around the world, You speak as you rise high above,
Of courage, peace and quiet strength, Of the Canada that I love.
Remind us all, our union bound by ties we cannot sever,
Bright flag revered on every ground, The Maple Leaf forever
you do know how many former players turned out to be great managers?
I'm sure Pep Guardiola has something to say
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
Really you can never judge a potential manager by his playing record. There are so many poor players that never made it in the game that eventually turned into great managers (Jose Mourinho is the most obvious that comes to mind!).
Equally there are so many fantastic players who have never made it as managers. So being a players and a manager are two different monsters.
How about the new England manager Roy Hodgson? He never played above English Conference level football! Now he's got the biggest management job in England!
My point exactly. being a player does give you an insight into player managing (been there, done that aspect), but by no means it's an indicator of how well, or how poorly you will be as a manager
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
I think that this is a very interesting point. I happen to believe that TFC is in a much more complicated situation than during previous "crises". The first thing is not to do more harm, imho. Do Rogers & Bell really want the current FO making any major decisions that will affect the future direction of this team? What direction does Rogers & Bell wish to take?
I don't think it's as simple as a difference in opinion over formations. The current soap opera seems to be a battle for hearts and minds over philosophy. Do you find the players who fit the system, or do you build a system around the players you have? Do you focus on developing players and supplement with foreign talent, or use the traditional MLS style of building a backbone of US players and supplement with trades and the draft? Max out on DPs or spread the cap around?
Considering TFC's large investment in the Academy, I thought one of the ideas behind the latest approach was to emulate organizations with a track record of successfully developing talent for club, country and sales to teams in other leagues. Perhaps it was all just a marketing pitch? It does make sense that if you want to use the talent being developed in the academy, then the academy should be playing the system used by the first team, no? If you want to have the option to sell your players, then your players should be developed in such a way where they gain the abilities which teams in other leagues will find useful, no? Do Bell & Rogers want to direct a team with such a model? Do they want changes implemented that may disrupt such an approach? Perhaps not much needs to be sacrificed for greater success within MLS this season? Maybe Winter just isn't the man to successfully coach TFC or implement the greater cultural/systemic approach for the organization?
A corporate structure where management-level employees continually jockey for position while simultaneously trying to cover their backsides is hardly ideal. Obviously Bell & Rogers need to be careful not to buy into something being sold by those only interested in keeping their job(s). I fear that talk of Paul Mariner being involved in any management change, who has been described by others as a competing interest to the current management's approach, would just be a continuation of past problems. MLS and TFC interests do not always align. I got the feeling in the past that TFC has been a destination where useful players get siphoned off to other MLS squads and where troubled contracts get dumped. It would be a shame for TFC to become the MLS version of the Montreal Expos. By the way, has anyone noticed that a whole generation of Canadian youth has grown up without seeing a Canadian NHL team lift the Stanley Cup?
^This. Right now I feel all the MLSE properties are waiting to see what direction the new masters will want to take.
From Kurt Larson's article in Canoe.
For those of us that were wondering what Mariner's role with the team has been.Since then, the distance between Winter and Mariner appears to have grown, with Dutchman in complete control of the first-team while the more MLS experienced Englishman has taken a back seat with the academy setup.
If Larson is accurate and he truly has been relegated to working with the Academy, and Winter is in complete control of the first team, I see no reason to blame Mariner before I blame Winter. That makes no sense whatsoever.
How do we reconcile this with the rumours of interference within the ranks? Is it Cochrane?
Either way, this statement here gives me even more reason to believe a Nicol/Mariner tandem would be exponentially better than the clusterfuck we have now before us.
Larson quoted their record from 04-09:
I'd kill for a record like that right now.Under then head coach Steve Nicol and Mariner, the pair guided the New England Revolution to a 63-47-44 league record from 2004-2009.
To put those digits into perspective, under the duo's guidance, the Boston outfit secured points in close to 70% of its league matches.
And these are the remaining records of futility, all within reach of this edition of TFC. Are we really going for the trifecta here?
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Soccer/Tor.../19728991.html
ALL-TIME WORST MLS TEAMS
Other than the “most goals allowed," the following numbers are all post-MLS shootout era (1999) …
LOWEST WINNING %
1. Tampa Bay - 2001, .185
2. Chivas - 2005, .219
3. Salt Lake - 2005, .219
4. New York - 2009, .267
5. D.C. United - 2010, .267
FEWEST WINS - SINGLE SEASON
1. Tampa Bay - 2001, 4
2. Chivas - 2005, 4
Four teams tied with 5 regular season wins
FEWEST POINTS
1. Tampa Bay - 2001, 14 (season cut short due to 9/11)
2. Chivas - 2005, 18
3. Salt Lake - 2005, 20
4. New York - 2009, 21
5. D.C. United - 2010, 22
FEWEST GOALS SCORED
(TFC on pace to score 26 goals in 34 games in 2012)
1. D.C. United - 2010, 21 (30 Games)
2. Toronto - 2007, 25 (30 Games)
3. New York - 2009, 27 (30 Games)
MOST GOALS ALLOWED
(TFC on pace to allow 77 goals in 34 games in 2012)
1. Colorado - 1998, 69
2. Miami - 1998, 68
3. Tampa Bay - 2001, 68
MOST TIMES SHUTOUT IN A SEASON
(TFC on pace to be shutout 17 times in 34 games in 2012)
1. D.C. United - 2010, 17
2. Toronto - 2007, 15
3. New York - 2009, 15
Yes, this is true, that kind of CYA corporate structure isn't good.
As for the Stanley Cup, at least a whole generation of Canadian youth has grown up watching Canadians lift the Cup - as players, coaches and GMs, just not while representing Canadian cities. Could be a sign the problem is somewhere higher up the structure?
I see your Pep, and raise you a Maradona
The big advantage I think is that they understand the psychology of the players and the players can better relate to them - at least that is what I have heard. You still need to have the aptitude on top of that though to actually manage. I don't think anything about being a player in itself gives you a leg up.
I think various sources have been hinting at Cochrane's interference for some time. Duane Rollins came right out and said it in a recent CSN blog:
http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/co...ing-disconnect
The working relationship between Winter and Cochrane have continue to deteriorate since that time. As previously reported on CSN, a divide between “MLS pragmatists” and “4-3-3 idealists” has been brewing for a while. It's been further suggested that Cochrane has openly blocked Winter from other signings during that period but did not elaborate on the details.
Wasn't Mariner brought in to help Winter with the draft and with identifying MLS talent? When was he relegated to the Academy level? What about the trades from last year? Did Mariner suggest Danleigh Borman and Tony Tchani for Dero? How about Andy Iro? Dasan Robinson? Kyle Davies?
The buck stops with Winter, but does that completely excuse Mariner? Weren't there rumours of a rift between Dasovic and Preki? Is the FO just creating the conditions for competing interests to give them cover? If you are going to clean house, then clean house. Mariner included.
Why is he still here? What does he do? Rumours aren't proof but, if you are going to clean house, then clean house. Cochrane included.
Oh, I see. You would like to see Mariner and Nicol take over specifically. What do Rogers & Bell want? Does that tandem fit into TFC's current structure or does it mean another change in direction and a rebuild will be needed? Why aren't Nicol and Mariner still with NE? Is MLS from 2004-2009 the same as today's MLS?
Don't do that! That's how rumours start. Somewhere down the line Pookie is going to claim I wanted DeRo as manager!
Wouldnt that be a pickle for you if they got off to a bad start? Might be worth it just to see that.
Pretty sad when you have oars pulling in different directions. Pretty soon it becomes less about the end goal, Championship, and more about being right and individual agendas.
Though considering Cohrane used to work for the CSA, I guess it isn't that surprising.
If he has backers on the inside, I wonder if they wear "Don't block the Coch" t-shirts
With any luck, Bell/Rogers will appoint a team president and then not get involved at the coach level.
Don't forget that Tannenbuam has a 25% swing vote in all this. Going to be an interesting org chart when all is said and done
Wow! I can't believe what I'm reading. It's not the same, but you're right. Why even bother with Canadian teams at all? Just send our kids down to US arenas to watch "real" teams win. Can you tell me, why do you cheer for TFC? I guess you'd be happy just to watch DeRo raise the MLS cup or win the CCL with DC United? I cannot believe what I'm reading.
Perhaps...
Last edited by BayernTFC; 05-08-2012 at 03:03 PM.
Ideally.
Sure, I'd like Toronto teams to win (I don't rally care about other Canadian city's teams) but clearly the problem isn't that Canada can't develop players, coaches and managers (at least in hockey). So, what you're hearing is that we don't have any businesses that can compere in an open market without protection (MLSE and Bell are both masters at keeping foreign competition out, but I'm hoping Bell are better owners than MLSE was).
I cheer for TFC because it's my team in my city but I'm not blind to the fact that it's owners are uncompetitive in everything they do.
I raise you a Johan CruijffI see your Pep, and raise you a Maradona
This is why I don't want Mariner. What has he done to improve the situation? Also, what has Nicol done of late and why is New England a better team so far this year? What has change in NE from last year besides Nicol leaving?
Beach_Red,
MLSE has huge pockets. They are not outspent. But, you just keep believing that it's all about uncompetitive Canadian businesses if it makes you feel better. The Vancouver Canucks, Edmonton Oilers, Calgary Flames, Winnipeg Jets, Ottawa Senators, and Montreal Canadiens all have owners too. 19 years. 0 Stanley Cups.
TFC is now owned by Rogers & Bell. I wish them the best of luck. For TFC's sake.
In an effort to save the mods from having a brain aneurism over having more threads on discussing Winter's future, I brought this quote over here from the Montreal pregame thread:
I would just like to put the record straight where we are in terms of number of games and his record because it's not fair to understate or overstate his record:
2011 MLS, 34 Games, 6-15-13 for 33 points, 0.97 ppg.
NCC/CCL, 16 games 9-4-3, 31 points, 1.94 ppg.
2012 MLS, 8 games, 0-0-8, 0 points, 0.00 ppg.
Total: 58 games, 15-19-24, 64 points, 1.10 ppg.
What jumps out at me is his horrendous league record. Over 42 games, he has a 6-15-21 record for 33 points and a 0.79 ppg. That would have put us in last place even in 2007, our inaurugal season. It would have put us in last or 2nd last place in any of the last 5 seasons.
What does that tell me? It says if we didn't have minnows like FC Edmonton and Real Esteli to beat up on to improve our record, we would have a ppg of under 1.00 over 58 games. With a multi-million dollar roster, that is inexcusable.
I'll give it to Winter, we did perform well in CCL and NCC. We did play some respectable and exciting football against some good teams in CCL...but like you've said everything else is inexcusable. I'm just trying to understand where it all went so downhill this season...but I seriously think the change has to come from the top more then anywhere. I think even if we were to make a management change who says that we'll hire the right guy? It's time for us to bring in a proper soccer president to execute a vision and figure out who's accountable for what from now on. Everything has to start from the top in order for this team to make a turn around in the future.
Our CCL record is decent. We excelled over a period of 4 games. The last game against Dallas, the two games against LA and the first game against Santos. Everything before and after was average at best. It's those 4 games that got everyone excited. It may be human nature but from an analytical point of view, those 4 games look more and more like an aberration rather than a true indicator of better times to come.
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