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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManUtd4ever View Post
    Winter has lost the room? Considering that the majority of players in the locker room are now his acquisitions, and 7 of those players arrived within the last 2 weeks, I submit that your assertion is highly unlikely, and mere conjecture at this point.

    Once again, Gordon's comments aren't a revelation. It was already apparent that some players weren't grasping his tactical approach. As a result, roster transactions have taken place to acquire players that Winter feels are condusive to his desired style of play.

    If Winter is to be judged accordingly, it should be within the appropriate timeframe, with his players. The clock started ticking yesterday.

    A couple of things.

    I agree with you that saying Winter has lost THIS room is foolish. But I am certain that Winter lost the "previous" room. Will he have better communication with this new group? I guess we will have to wait, but a leopard rarely changes his spots.

    As for the clock starting ticking yesterday, I am wondering why then we even bothered playing the first half of the season. He should have just trotted out the Academy or Reserves and saved the team a ton of money. I am truly aghast at how willing people are willing to throw away almost 2/3 of a season as it if never happened.
    Last edited by Roogsy; 07-21-2011 at 10:59 PM.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExiledRed View Post
    Im sure we'll all be ready to nuke holland by then.
    Holy geez I spit out my cereal reading this one.

  3. #183
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    Honestly...I get it.

    You want him fired. That's fine.

    But besides that I have zero interest in what you have to say.

    Belgian chocolate and fake snow aside...you're not willing to wait and see if this can work.

    I guess you think totally overhauling a club and changing the philosophy around it is something that can happen quickly. I don't.

    I can accept that it's going to look bad at the beginning. After all, I made it through 4 years of shit with this club. I can handle a little more if I see a light at the end of the tunnel.

    Which I do.

    You don't. Fine. Good for you. If it fails then you'll be right.

    Until then.....

  4. #184
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    This thread is bursting at the seams with impatience for a good team. Totally warranted.

    I feel better about the team right now than I did last year at this time.

    Also not to hate on Santos or anything, but if Gordon was in front of the net when that lob came in from Soolsma, we would have had a draw last night. Gonna miss that guy.

    Now that the bulk of the old useless team is gone, we will see how well Winter can coach.

  5. #185
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    This whole thread reminds me of Jason De Vos' comments on Canadian player development.

    We all focus too much on results. Kids are taught not how to play but only the desire to win. Someone previously mentioned that they support Winter and De Klerk because they are at least attempting to bring in technical ability, something that completely lacks in Canadian player development. I too want this to succeed.

    As for Gordons comments about Winter not teaching them anything but passing drills, that tells me right there that Winter really is trying to teach the importance of being technically skilled. This likely seems mundane for most players. I can't see myself enjoying have to pass the ball around for hours on end, but this is what can breed better technical ability. I hope that Winter manages to find a way to communicate his system better to his players so that they can understand it, but I dont' have a problem with what him and De Klerk are attempting to do.

    Losing sucks, but if it means that players like Cordon and Henry end up becoming confident on the ball and have the ability to make stretch passes like Frings, than I'm sold.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickio View Post
    I couldn't agree more. I feel the same, if MLSE even remotely goes back to garbage soccer that focuses on physics instead of technique, I don't have any desire to follow that.
    I can think of several games under previous coaches where players exhibited great technique and won games decisively with good football. The 4-0 at Dallas comes to mind, the 2-1 against Cruz Azul, 4-1 against Chicago. These games werent a case of the GK hoofing the ball into the oppositions box (saw a lot of that last night by the way), they were good games. Id like to see more of those to be honest, I'd like to go back to a time when the team had the ability to win games. I dont buy that we need to be crap in order to get better, its nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by nickio View Post
    Ajax wasn't built overnight, why should TFC all the sudden become a good team in a matter of months- Considering where we are coming from?!
    five seasons is not 'overnight' and spare me the notion that when a new coach comes in we might as well be at year one again. If this were the case every team that got a new coach after performing badly would be bottom of the league for a whole season.

    This leagues not even 20 years old, there is parity, franchising , a single entity and all that. Whatever Ajax's history is will be so different from any MLS team that the analogy doesnt hold up at all. Youd think we had relegation and coming up through the divisions shit to contend with.

    Put it this way, I suspect no other team in this league has had or will have as bad a start as we have over 5 years.

    Why us?

    Quote Originally Posted by nickio View Post
    I mean what did people expect? Start playing an efficient 4-3-3 with a squad that was built for track and field?
    I didnt expect this, but it looks like Winter did from here. Otherwise he would have eased into the system and kept us competetive. The arrogance of this coach is astounding.

    Quote Originally Posted by nickio View Post
    Anyone watch Mike Holmes? 80% of his work is destruction to get to the bottom of the problem. If anyone was to walk in when he is 1/3 finished and judge his performance- he would be fired everytime.
    No he wouldnt, because he's mike holmes, has a proven track record and could explain quite succintly why the house was in the state you mention.

    Someone with no experience who cant answer questions or explain the progress properly would likely be fired though.

    Quote Originally Posted by nickio View Post
    Let Aron Winter build his house ground up, the right way:

    Quote Originally Posted by nickio View Post
    thing we have never tried in 4.5 years is keep a coach, maybe that would work?!
    This is because weve never had a good coach. I dont have a good car, its not going to get better if i keep it around. It might improve a bit if i throw money at it, but theres a limit to how much it can be improved realistically.

    Quote Originally Posted by nickio View Post
    and his comments.. He is like a person passing by judging Mike Holmes halfway through his project.
    No, this is absurd. He's like someone who worked in the house alongside Mike Holmes for 5 months, saw everything he did off camera, heard him swearing at the make up artists and saw him cutting corners when he thought nobody was looking.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    I am somewhat confused with all this negativity towards "North American" players. Guess what, this is the MLS, that's what we are going to have. Do we really think we're going to fill the roster with top European on a budget of two and a half million?

    There are some here who say ridiculous things like "if you don't like what you see then get out"...well if you don't like the level of North American talent, maybe MLS isn't for you and you should go back to following the EPL? Because Winter arriving isnt' going to change the talent level of North American soccer. All he's going to do is frustrate himself for 1 or 2 years that he isn't working with soccer prodigies that have the talent to play in the top leagues in the world. You'd think he wouldn't have realized this fact before he took on the job. Meanwhile, the competent coaches in this league are squeezing the best they can out of the athletic but technically lacking players that North America produces and get the results they can. Meanwhile we try to turn Harden into Heitinga.
    I don't know where you are getting that from when he has stated time and time again that he wants to build his squad through our academy.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    A couple of things.

    I agree with you that saying Winter has lost THIS room is foolish. But I am certain that Winter lost the "previous" room. Will he have better communication with this new group? I guess we will have to wait, but a leopard rarely changes his spots.

    As for the clock starting ticking yesterday, I am wondering why then we even bothered playing the first half of the season. He should have just trotted out the Academy or Reserves and saved the team a ton of money. I am truly aghast at how willing people are willing to throw away almost 2/3 of a season as it if never happened.
    Throwing away the season and realizing a new regime needs time to stamp it's mark on the team are 2 different things. I don't think it's fair to trivialize people's patience as throwing away 2/3 of the season.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickio View Post
    ExileRed- What exactly did you expect from TFC to justify Aron's plan to you?
    visible evidence that the plan is a good one, is working and that everybody is on board with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by nickio View Post
    -A few more wins? (which we would've had if it wasn't for some bad luck and shitty reffing)
    oh please.....

    Quote Originally Posted by nickio View Post
    No one knows what to expect, therefore judgment is to be reserved until his contract is up, or very close to it.
    this is a well studied, well understood sport, its not voodoo and its not wacky science.

    You dont have to wait till the end of the play, to know that it was crap and the actors flubbed their lines.

    Quote Originally Posted by nickio View Post
    Just like in any work place, if you're confused, you don't get it and and if you're incompetent- there is the door. Do you think a well respected player like Frings finds Winter's expectations confusing? I don't think any world class player with proper upbringing would!
    Frings isnt going to find Winter confusing.,...Frings isnt the issue here, Frings and Winter have a lot in common.

    The problem youre missing is we dont have a squad full of "world class players with proper upbringing " and the players we do have dont seem to be too enthused about the coach......big problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barticusz View Post
    This whole thread reminds me of Jason De Vos' comments on Canadian player development.

    We all focus too much on results. Kids are taught not how to play but only the desire to win. Someone previously mentioned that they support Winter and De Klerk because they are at least attempting to bring in technical ability, something that completely lacks in Canadian player development. I too want this to succeed.

    As for Gordons comments about Winter not teaching them anything but passing drills, that tells me right there that Winter really is trying to teach the importance of being technically skilled. This likely seems mundane for most players. I can't see myself enjoying have to pass the ball around for hours on end, but this is what can breed better technical ability. I hope that Winter manages to find a way to communicate his system better to his players so that they can understand it, but I dont' have a problem with what him and De Klerk are attempting to do.

    Losing sucks, but if it means that players like Cordon and Henry end up becoming confident on the ball and have the ability to make stretch passes like Frings, than I'm sold.
    Pro soccer players should know how to play any system or they are bums, not professional athletes.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFCin110 View Post
    I don't know where you are getting that from when he has stated time and time again that he wants to build his squad through our academy.
    Can people please stop writing this. Successful or not academy results will come through at glacial speed, not going to save our bacon.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFCin110 View Post
    I don't know where you are getting that from when he has stated time and time again that he wants to build his squad through our academy.
    Then why bother having a first team at all? Seriously, are they just running out the lads out of an obligation to MLS, while the kids develop?

    I love this attitude that its OK to turn a whole season into a series of meaningless friendlies. The games cant be true indicators of the teams strength, cause a) its only the supporting act while the kids warm up and b) winter is using the games to figure shit out, despite the fact that people are paying to see the team actually try to compete.

    Have you any idea how long it will take to build the squad around the academy? How likely is it that the academy will provide enough players to compete against the rest of the league? and those players will all be here for life?
    No team should depend on its academy for anything more than one or two good players a season.
    Last edited by ExiledRed; 07-21-2011 at 11:41 PM.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExiledRed View Post
    Then why bother having a first team at all? Seriously, are they just running out the lads out of an obligation to MLS, while the kids develop?

    I love this attitude that its OK to turn a whole season into a series of meaningless friendlies. The games cant be true indicators of the teams strength, cause a) its only the supporting act while the kids warm up and b) winter is using the games to figure shit out, despite the fact that people are paying to see the team actually try to compete.

    Have you any idea how long it will take to build the squad around the academy? How likely is it that the academy will provide enough players to compete against the rest of the league? and those players will all be here for life?
    No team should depend on its academy for anything more than one or two good players a season.
    I love how you've added your own thoughts to my one line post. lol. Look, with the shittyness that is MLS, its not impossible to get 5 or 6 good academy kids to step up to the first with a system and ideology they've using since they were 10.the point to is that a good established academy playing one system and with good coaches can produce players that step right in to the first team. That's what Winter was hired on so if people were against that from the start then fine, but to all of a sudden jump all ove the guy because we've been shit for 2/3 of season is a little unreasonable. One or 2 good players a season in MLS I think is inaccurate based on the talent level in the league.

  14. #194
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    wax on, wax off

    theres no way in hell you can really beat a third dan black belt in a karate tournament by waxing cars and painting houses for a week or two.

    great movie though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExiledRed View Post
    Passing drills apply to any formation or system, it's basic, it's not going to help them play the new system, cover for each others roles, score goals or keep posession under pressure.

    This is what "Its nice not to be treated like a kid again" meant

    Its like when I was in cadets and the march was off, so the drill sergeant made us hold up our left hand and shout "this is my left hand" then hold up the right and shout "this is my right hand"

    for two hours.

    Do you think that was necessary for the cadets to get what 'left and right' are? Of course not, he was disciplining us through denigration.
    and how do you learn this? By constantly doing passing drills. The best teams in the world don't do anything different than MLS sides in training, they just do a lot more of it. Clearly MLS players have the first touch of a rapist so in system that requires players to be extremely comfortable on the ball, constantly doing passing drills seems like a good way to imbed this principle. The4 soccer edumication on here amazes me sometimes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExiledRed View Post
    and the players we do have dont seem to be too enthused about the coach......big problem.
    That statement is about as credible as the rest of the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExiledRed View Post
    Then why bother having a first team at all? Seriously, are they just running out the lads out of an obligation to MLS, while the kids develop?

    I love this attitude that its OK to turn a whole season into a series of meaningless friendlies. The games cant be true indicators of the teams strength, cause a) its only the supporting act while the kids warm up and b) winter is using the games to figure shit out, despite the fact that people are paying to see the team actually try to compete.

    Have you any idea how long it will take to build the squad around the academy? How likely is it that the academy will provide enough players to compete against the rest of the league? and those players will all be here for life?
    No team should depend on its academy for anything more than one or two good players a season.
    I am shocked at the degree of dependance being put on the academy. I have stated Winter is a gamble for TFC but this pressure on the Academy goes beyond gambling into the realm of "pigs fly" territory. Does anyone have any evidence that an MLS squad can be built on the back of their Academy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    I am shocked at the degree of dependance being put on the academy. I have stated Winter is a gamble for TFC but this pressure on the Academy goes beyond gambling into the realm of "pigs fly" territory. Does anyone have any evidence that an MLS squad can be built on the back of their Academy?
    No, and it could all blowup. Nut if the guy was hired based on his academy structure plan, should we not wait until he has produced his first crop of academy players to judge him? If you are against the academy style plan and the time it will take then that's fine, but put just put it out there now is all.

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    To be perfectly honest I think the idea of judging Winter based on the "first crop of Academy players"is just about the worst idea I've heard as to how Winter should be evaluated. A "good plan" isn't just about managing the long term health of a club. It has to also be about managing the short term, in fact that's even more important. Because without short-term success, you can kiss the long-term plans good-bye. Not to mention, why entrust someone who cant manage the "now" anyways? A good coach is more than a developer of young talent which I am not even sure he is?

    Besides, shouldn't it be the head of the Academy that gets evaluated on the talent produced not the coach of the senior team?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    To be perfectly honest I think the idea of judging Winter based on the "first crop of Academy players"is just about the worst idea I've heard as to how Winter should be evaluated. A "good plan" isn't just about managing the long term health of a club. It has to also be about managing the short term, in fact that's even more important. Because without short-term success, you can kiss the long-term plans good-bye. Not to mention, why entrust someone who cant manage the "now" anyways? A good coach is more than a developer of young talent which I am not even sure he is?

    Besides, shouldn't it be the head of the Academy that gets evaluated on the talent produced not the coach of the senior team?
    Well, the head of the academy to an extent, but the training, tactics, system, etc. will all come down to the manager and his staff. The head of the academy will be evaluated on how he delivers the manager's message to the kids. If we are shit and this plan comes to nothing then management will have to look at whether its the message or the way its being delivered which is the problem.

    Look, your questions are valid. The team is shit right now. Basically this comes down to 2 camps of supporters. Those who are willing to give Winter the time, and those who want him out now.
    Last edited by TFCin110; 07-22-2011 at 12:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by v00d00daddy View Post
    I agree. That's why I didn't claim that anything like that would happen. If we built towards fielding a team like Dallas or rsl I'd be happy.

    And I'm not saying that winter or de klerk are the saviours.

    I just wanna see if their plans will work.

    If the club is not willing to do that and, instead, decide to hire someone who is going to promote long ball, kick and chase, long throws into the box at every opportunity, altheticism over skill (ie: the coaches we've had up to now) then I'm out.

    If they fire winter and hire some guy who will have us playing attractive soccer AND getting results...then I'm in. I just don't think it's time to pull the plug on the current guys and what they're trying to do.
    There are points in their MLS careers where Jason Kreis, Schellas Hyndman and Sigi Schmidt all had horrible runs and team rebuild situations like ours. I remember when Schmidt first went to Columbus, listening to their fans on Big Soccer bitch about what a total idiot he was.

    I take all this certainty with a grain of salt. A team doesn't commit to a new system that runs thorugh every age group of its system -- and spend $17 million on a youth training facility at the same time -- if it isn't committed to continuing with it. That's not to say it can't be under someone other than Winter, but it makes the likelihood they're going to get rid of him based on premature bitching here exceptionally slim.

    If by the start of his second season proper we aren't ready to playoff compete, then I'll join the chorus. But I see it taking at least that long, so you can imagine how much time MLS will give him. Judging anything at this early a stage just seems foolish. I see bad signs, too, but bad signs are not always the whole story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFCin110 View Post
    Well, the head of the academy to an extent, but the training, tactics, system, etc. will all come down to the manager and his staff. The head of the academy will be evaluated on how he delivers the manager's message to the kids. If we are shit and this plan comes to nothing then management will have to look at whether its the message or the way its being delivered which is the problem.

    Look, your questions are valid. The team is shit right now. Basically this comes down to 2 camps of supporters. Those who are willing to give Winter the time, and those who want him out now.

    I dunno. I just don't know of any team on this planet that judges their head coach of the senior team by the results or talent produced by the Academy and I don't see why we should be the first.

    As for time...I have never disagreed that time is necessary to get to the ultimate results, whether it be the MLS Cup or Supporter's Shield or other type of notable success. But that is the fallacy in the accusation against those of us on this side of the opinion. None of us are asking for that in this first year, not even in the 2nd year. Our argument is quite simply that regardless of the rebuild, any team that plays this poorly, that gets outscored this much, that has this much trouble scoring, that has this much drama and contract squabbling...that a team like that isn't in the shape it is in because of the rebuild. That is a sign of poor management and no team in MLS that has been rebuilt properly went through this kind of incompetence for this long a period of time.

    7 months after his hiring, this team got beat 5-0 and 2-0 in consecutive weeks. It got beat 6-2 the month before. Those results may...MAY have been understandable in the first few weeks of his regime, but not after 2.5 months of preseason, an entire NCC tournament and 21 weeks of regular season. On most professional clubs, the manager would have been sacked by now. The case is even more condemning when you factor in issues like parity, cap space and a practically full stadium.

    Now given these facts...for me to have faith and give Winter "time" I'd need something to balance the scales. It has been a fruitless endeavour to get someone to give us something to grasp and hold on to in order to believe in the newly minted saviour. All we get is this argument of "time". You could give me 10 years and I won't get this club to where it needs to be. What makes Winter deserving of any time other than Anselmi's decision to hire him?

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    Default .::Is It Just Me?::.

    I may take a bit of flack for this.. but it's okay, because I have on my crucifying-shorts and a clean pair of underwear - boxer-briefs, if you must know - ready to meet my maker.

    [rant]

    Does it seem, to any of you, like inside info. from this board (and probably others, but I couldn't say), is often shared with an underlying motive to gain status points?

    Under the thin veil of "hoping they're wrong," people will proceed to post information that they know will only fan the flames -- like giving a child candy and asking him/her not to eat it. It's widely agreed by most that Winter should stay on, at least until this time next season.. but then the same people of whom subscribe to the importance of us keeping a coach for more than one season will go out of their way to discredit him and stir the pot.

    I liked what Alan Gordon had to say before he left (whilst it was still his problem), when he mentioned about it being important to believe in the coach and his system.. because if you start to question and doubt, it doesn't help things (if someone could find and post his direct quote, that'd be great).

    I don't fully agree with it, though; I believe that timing is everything and it would be important to simply show your support throughout the season, reserving criticisms for when things are winding down and over the course of the off-season (less distracting).

    I just feel like, instead of looking to be the person that start "this" or "that" conversation - the coveted OP, as it were - we should ask ourselves if posting this information is truly, as you would claim, in the best interest of the club. Maybe it's just a timing thing, but I get the impression that, for many, this is more of a popularity contest and the media will only follow suit.

    [/rant]
    Last edited by JuliquE; 07-22-2011 at 05:54 AM.

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    In my opinion, dallas is the most talented team in mls. They have a load of talented, young south american players,

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    people on boards like these love to hear themselves speak, and think very highly of themselves. the chance to be the king in a world of serfdom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whoop View Post
    If anyone reads Dutch, you can find some info here.

    http://www.ajaxupdate.nl/2009/05/tus...ring-afc-ajax/

    If you look towards the middle-end of the news piece, it mentions Aron Winter being released by the club. Adrie Koster, who was coaching with him, left at the same time. But since Koster had a more extensive coaching background he wound up moving to Bruges.

    This is from May 2009.

    http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/ar...ainer_771.html
    Thanks so much for finding this.

    I initially though he left Ajax in April of 2010. But this makes it even worse.

    We are putting all our faith into a guy that was unemployed for 1.5 seasons. Not sure how TFC fans built this guys reputation up so high. I kind of feel like we've been swindled.

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    I'll agree with some of what you said.

    I have never put too much stock into something said by someone traded away. Lets be honest, there has to be a feeling of being unwanted and nobody likes that. So, is it possible they will say stuff to get back at someone? Of course.

    As for status points, while there are so many experts and insiders on these boards, anyone with 1/2 a brain can tell the morons from the ones who might actually know a thing or two. Just do what the rest of us do, ignore those who you think are full of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    I am shocked at the degree of dependance being put on the academy. I have stated Winter is a gamble for TFC but this pressure on the Academy goes beyond gambling into the realm of "pigs fly" territory. Does anyone have any evidence that an MLS squad can be built on the back of their Academy?
    No one has any evidence that the academy will work, but almost every MLS team is going in this direction, so if it doesn't, then all of the teams are stupid.

    No one has any evidence that it won't work, either.

    I'll go with the academy, as 95% of the footballing world does it this way, and I'll choose them over the NCAA.

    On a related note, no one has evidence that Winter will be a winning coach. No one has evidence that he won't either (2/3 of a rebuilding season isn't evidence, Kreis was a loser in the same time frame).

    So we could go with, say, a proven MLS winner like Frank Yallop, the guy who gave DeRo his big chance. He built the original San Jose (later Houston) into a powerhouse in the MLS 1.0 days. Oh wait... he hasn't won anything in the modern MLS 2.0. San Jose isn't even in a playoff spot. But that would make everyone happy because he's a proven winning MLS coach who sees great talent like DeRo, and doesn't trade them away.

    Let's face it, MLS is changing, and going back to old ways isn't going to help this team.

    What will hurt this team is taking a "win now" perspective like New York. Despite going through coaches like toilet paper, and now hiring a proven Euro coach, and despite thrashing us 5-0, an MLS Cup, or any trophy, really, seems as hopeless as ever.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    Lots of commentary related to Winter focusing on basic technical skills.

    Why is it so hard to believe that a coach, in a DEVELOPEMENTAL league would want to work on these skills? If I am a young guy with transfer aspirations, this is what I need, technical skill.

    If I am Gordon, if I had technical skill, I probably wouldn't be here. My game can only improve.

    As for the hockey stuff a few pages back, pros work on the basics all the time. Including skating, passing, shooting and puck handling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    So we could go with, say, a proven MLS winner like Frank Yallop, the guy who gave DeRo his big chance. He built the original San Jose (later Houston) into a powerhouse in the MLS 1.0 days. Oh wait... he hasn't won anything in the modern MLS 2.0. San Jose isn't even in a playoff spot. But that would make everyone happy because he's a proven winning MLS coach who sees great talent like DeRo, and doesn't trade them away.
    I hate to nitpick, but San Jose are in the last playoff spot.

    And last season they made the final 4.

    Why is there this need to continually try to knock Yallop down to defend Winter?

    If TFC had similar results the fanbase would be ecstatic.

 

 

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