Yes... They will finanlly get it
No.... They will screw this up royally
hmmm... not sure? how much money will they make from this?
And all of the previous Powerhouse schools we had in the 416 are nowhere near the quality they used to be. Grassroots interest and talent lies in places like Barrie and Newmarket. I just don't see much room for it in the Downtown market.Originally Posted by TFC07
Amazing to me that you understand the economics of a privately held company without any access to their financial statements.
Well done
Amazing that they have survived over 150 years.
No, I actually read and listen to people who know these things.Amazing to me that you understand the economics of a privately held company without any access to their financial statements.
Well done
Amazing that they have survived over 150 years.
150 years and they still can't build their own stadium says a lot about that franchise. I personally don't see Argos folding, but they haven't made money since 80's unless when they hosted Grey Cup.
There's no one in Toronto interested buying Argos because they see no value of owning Argos. MLSE were only party, but their agenda owning Argos had to do with Larry T and other Toronto investors interest in owning NFL team.
It seems like you have trouble listening to others and continue on your typical anti-TFC rants on here.
They did have their own stadium all by themselves for 50 years up until 1977. BMO sitting in the same spot I believe
The Argos made a profit of over $10M two years ago (albeit the playoff & grey cup game is all of that profit). Plus the new TV deals get them $5m/yr, which gets them close to break even. That why Braley wants so much for the team.
Fair enough, but lately Argos had many opportunities to get their own stadium (rather be at BMO field or York University), but they end up messing it up and gone back to Rogers Centre because it was cheaper.
New TV deal is $4 million per team, but even then, that isn't enough to keep Argos afloat. Their SSH base is only 3500 and their attendance has been dropping yearly even though they have been successful lately on-field.
Since Argos play 9-10 games per year, they need to have much bigger crowd to make a profit. TV money alone isn't enough to make a profit.
Yeah, they were so set on building Varsity, and when that went away last minute they seemed pissed about and didn't look for alternatives.
I think Braley will come down on price and they will end up under MLSE. He not spending anything on marketing and promotion, just seems like he is getting ready to sell.
How is highlighting the Argo's history and posting official city documents an Anti-TFC rant?
And if the CFL is irrelevant as you claim it to be, you've got nothing to worry about with respect to the Argos moving in.
Except of course common sense and that official Phase 3 clause.
Last edited by Pookie; 07-16-2014 at 09:39 PM.
Argos being irrelevant in Toronto these days isn't a fact? Highlight exactly what in their history?
You keep comparing Argos current situation to TFC to prove a some sort anti-TFC point on here.
You make a false conclusion regarding the Argos and their relevancy. Not sure why a football team threatens TFC in any way. But a storied franchise as part of a storied league is relevant to the CFL regardless of recent struggles. If Ottawa is relevant enough to have 3 different franchises in 10 years the Toronto is going to be a part of then CFL as long as there is a CFL.
I don't watch the CFL and have never been to an Argos game in my life. However, some of the stuff being thrown out to knock them is ridiculous.You keep comparing Argos current situation to TFC to prove a some sort anti-TFC point on here.
"Argos have a papered number" - maybe. But the debate raged here with Paul B for years on announced attendance vs tickets distributed.
"Argos don't have their own stadium" - well, the Leafs, Raptors and Jays have their own stadium. TFC has a usage agreement for the City's stadium. The Argos will need to sign one of those usage agreements too.
And you know? Considering all the public money that has already gone into BMO, it's probably the option that screws the tax payers the least. So yeah, I think it makes sense.
If thinking that coexisting with a CFL team is antiTFC then perhaps you should direct your misguided conspiracy theory towards MLSE and the City who came up with the original plan for BMO that included the Argos Clause and the most recent amendments that clearly include phase 3.
If TFC is so relevant, maybe they should build their own soccer specific stadium?
Co-existing? What a nice way to say they will hinder our experience for their own negligence. The fact that MLSE, the city have the last say have no bearing on my opinion that this affects my TFC experience negatively.And you know? Considering all the public money that has already gone into BMO, it's probably the option that screws the tax payers the least. So yeah, I think it makes sense.
If thinking that coexisting with a CFL team is antiTFC then perhaps you should direct your misguided conspiracy theory towards MLSE and the City who came up with the original plan for BMO that included the Argos Clause and the most recent amendments that clearly include phase 3.
If TFC is so relevant, maybe they should build their own soccer specific stadium?
I appreciate you looking out for the taxpayer but it's something that I would rather pay for. It's happened before to all of us whether we used the old concrete box or not. This decision I can appreciate every week.
Your last statement is beyond ridiculous to the point of trolling. You're gonna need to try harder to appear not Anti-TFC with statements like that. emoji or no. It would be welcome on the fb where I've seen much like it.
This quest to prove that one of these franchises should "win" over the other in this issue is unnecessary. I don't want the Argos to go away forever just go away from BMO. This final phase announcement can't come fast enough. 100 pages of this is just a downer.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
Seriously?
Highlighting that the "go build your own" stadium is a statement that is said by some fans here from a glass house.
The legal truth is that the city owns it. TFC has a usage agreement.
It is a stadium that was built for multi-use provisions in mind with public funds. A LOT of public funds. It makes complete sense for the Argos to move in to BMO and every legal contract allows for it.
This has now somehow supposedly become the untouchable home of a soccer team? A team that basically rents it from the city? A team with an owner that could afford its own soccer stadium if it really wanted to moreso than the Argos?
If pointing out these facts out amount to trolling, I guess we are done here.
If you think that you were just pointing out those facts, you are missing the troll. Why keep arguing from an antagonists view if not to appear Anti TFC in this?
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
I think it's best to ignore Pookie. He's been on anti-TFC bandwagon since Tim Lewieke took over the team.
There's a button for that remember. No need to dogpile personally please.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
Pointing out those facts is exactly what I am doing.
Of course I could have just made up those city documents and the rest.
The Argos and TFC will co-exist nicely. Maybe on a turf field maybe hybrid grass But it will be nice and I am willing to bet that the atmosphere won't suffer at all and will sound louder, if that is the important factor in all of this.
What is the antagonistic view in saying that what was originally planned and approved can work?
hybrid only...no way its turf..
just because there is a clause, doesn't mean it can't be changed or broken
At the risk of sounding Anti-TFC, the current clause includes a financial penalty for MLSE. If the Argos don't move in they reimburse the City for lost revenue…
and at the risk of being called a troll… this was as of June 2014. One would think that if the Argos were off the table it would have been omitted from the June 2014 agreement.
And at the risk of being called an Anti-TFC troll, the agreement also spells out that 40,000 seats… the number Tim L indicated are necessary to be considered for the Winter Classics doesn't happen if the Argos don't happen… under the current June 2014 agreement.
Sure, things can change. But there are possibilities and probabilities. You decide.
Well once upon a time Kingston road and Spadina were designated to be expressways...then once upon the time the political climate changed...btw, there is a mayoral election in 3 months...btw the old deal just got renegotiated, so no reason to think that this deal can't either
Once upon a time they wanted a stadium for the Leafs and Raptors and selected the old Canada post site. They signed contracts, came up with schedules and financed it and there you have it.
Nothing is ever 100% but possibilities aren't probabilities. It's highly probable given the way that the most recently negotiated contract reads and the corporate desire of MLSE to host a Winter Classic and Grey Cups, that the stadium will be "CFL-ready" over the next 5 years.
I know, I know… anti-TFC rant of a troll… but I'm not the one advocating for Winter Classics and Grey Cups… nor signing the contract.
To be clear, the Argo clause Pookie keeps talking about can be walked away from by MLSE if the Argos don't agree to go to BMO.
The following conditions relating to the Phase 3 Stadium Improvements must be satisfied (and/or waived by agreement in writing by MLSE in whole or in part)
prior to May 15, 2017, failing which MLSE in its sole discretion, exercised reasonably, shall have the right to terminate the arrangements relating to the
Phase 3 Stadium Improvements:
The parking amount of $160K that is above and beyond the Guaranteed Payment that compensates the city for loss of parking revenue due to construction can be terminated based on what I quoted above.
i.e.
MLSE has an out if the Argos don't show up and are not liable to compensate the city if the Argos don't show up.
Last edited by OgtheDim; 07-18-2014 at 06:27 AM.
What does MLSE want? And why is it taking so long to find out? Above Pookie mentions the ACC but before that was built (started by the Raptors owners, not MLSE) they tried to negotiate with the city for Union station. So maybe it would be better if BMO negotiations with the city didn't go well for MLSE and they had to pull out and build their own - well, after someone else started it first...
No. You pointed out facts in your post than went on to question the relevance of Toronto FC on a site dedicated to the support of Toronto FC. That is your disconnect in this. Stay on point in your facts and leave the troll and Anti-TFC label behind.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
Gentlemen,
let's all take a big breath and step away from the keyboards for a while.
I don't like where this thread is heading.
What they want is a 30K stadium able to expand up to 40K to do Winter classics with some different revenue streams, and with a more streamlined approach to making capital improvements. They are willing to pay for the 30K but want somebody else to pay for the 40K bit.
What MLSE is getting is a 30K stadium with some different revenue streams and a slightly different amount of money going to the city and a streamlined approach to capital improvements.
They might get their 40K stadium. If the Argos are what it takes to get that, they'll do so.
What the June document does is ensure the 30K expansion is not dependent upon the Argos.
Doesn't that seem like fairly small-time thinking from the biggest "sports and entertainment" company in the country? I guess it's the way business is done here, but that doesn't seem like very much vision. It seems they're pretty much talking about a small college stadium in a Midwestern city and want the government to pay for part of it.
What do you want an 80,000 stadium that will be 60% empty for all but one game a year, and kill the atmosphere?
30,000 is what Toronto can support. If they can get 5-10 years of 30,000 sell outs at the upgraded BMO and people in the city actually support it like they do the Leafs or Even the Raptors, well then there maybe other discussions.
You are close.
The Argos Clause is the actual term from the original agreement that provides for CFL expansion of BMO with all the costs for that reverting to the owner.
Phase 3 in this latest agreement spells out the financial conditions ((ie $20m) that needs to be raised or waived by MLSE to then proceed with the construction plans (ie 40,000 seats and CFL ready).
Of course if the financial conditions are not met, phase 3 may not go ahead or could be modified. It's possible that the financing doesn't happen but not probable in my opinion. Way cheaper to move in then build your own.
Further, it's possible that 40,000 seats go in without CFL expansion if financial conditions are not met an there is a modification to the current construction plans.
However Tim L, not me, is the one talking about Grey Cups. Grey Cups can't be played at BMO if it is a permanent soccer stadium. So again, possible that it becomes a soccer only facility but not at all probable given the stated intentions of the owner.
Right. Like Henry had a great game. Or team looks dangerous with Gilberto give him time or same with Nelsen
All negative. All the time.
Right. My recommendation use that ignore button. You'll be much happier, whether it's reality or not.
I'd like to see a dedicated stadium, not a multi-use stadium. I'd like to see MLSE build it on their own without having to ask the city, the province or any other entity for money. I'd like TFC to have one of the top 5 stadiums in MLS.
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