Matchday 3 : TFC at Real Salt Lake, Sat March 29 9:30PM EST

[mitchf]

As someone who's been a long time EPL/Arsenal fan and new to the MLS, I hope I'm not being overly critical here...

I've watched all three games and I don't see any ability whatsoever to retain the ball. They can't maintain the ball even just going cross field, is that normal for MLS teams? Seems like a recipe for disaster and it's not just based off of last nights game.

Bradley is so clearly the best player on this team, but it's already getting annoying watching him win back the ball only to watch his teammates lose it or just play it up field with the HOPE of it reaching somebody. (Bradley himself does this as well, but I assume it's because he's picked up on this also)

Maybe it's the quality of the pitch, but my early MLS experience has been a lot of "Why the heck can't they string 5+ passes together?"

EDIT: Also, the refs.. My god. Completely incompetent.

[Kaz]

My goodness the sky isn't falling.. the doom and gloomers are amazing.

Teams have loses like this... no team goes undefeated.

We were playing in the fire with issues that we hoped we wouldn't see, with one player playing out of position, and another who hasn't had a lot of minutes, and plays differently.

We had a few things happening... Bloom was supposed to be capable of playing RM he clear isn't as capable, Orr isn't as capable at helping Rey. Issey seemed to look good and that will likely be the option going forward. He just signed and we had to see what Bloom could do going forward.

Hall hasn't played a lot of minutes, and I'm betting a lot of training was Osorio and Bradley and Osorio and Hall, not Bradley and Hall. That will take time, because Hall is a different type of player.

What happened last night was not because of the players on the field, it was an inexperienced Ryan Nelson that took a chance trying to keep the same form with pieces missing against a team that doesn't make mistakes and punished up for it.

It was a good learning experience for everyone.

Now we pick ourselves up... and move on.

Hall won't be in Red next season I don't think he will likely be replaced with a Osorio like player... Bekker will likely spend the season being groomed for that role (I hope)

Honestly I'd like to see Morgan groomed for a Winger position as well which will help get him minutes.

The last 30 minutes weren't horrible once Issey game on.

The worse part of it all, was I honestly think the guys were worried about running out of steam and hurting themselves, three bad pitches in three games.

Next week it's Columbus... yet another strong side.

[Abou Sky]

All the holes that we all knew were there were just pointed out to us.

Henry is young.
Cesar is not 100% in form yet (although, he has played a bunch of national team friendlies too)
DeRo was born in the 70s
Our depth is poor
Relying on a couple of players to carry the team every week is a bad idea.
Nelsen is 'half a coach'

This isn't a supporters shield year, but I wouldn't write off playoffs or even the cup quite yet.

[LFC8]

Here's what I got from this thread over the last 12 hours.
Defoe is too old,
Defoe is injury prone,
Nelsen can't coach,
4-4-2 will never work,
It's time to panic,
Proof that Henry is not up to par,
We have no quality wingers,

Thank you for the contributions. Does anyone other than a handful of people talk about the facts of the game, tactically, rather than point fingers and put blame?

My thoughts exactly. Apparently this team is not allowed to lose.

[LFC8]

Next week it's Columbus... yet another strong side.

I think their record flatters them. Still they'll have a lot of confidence going into this game.

[Ivy]

My thoughts exactly. Apparently this team is not allowed to lose.

Never.
What happened last night was experienced team vs an inexperienced team. This isn't the first, and won't be the last time TFC gets blown out. I'm amazed at how many people think that because we have a good starting 11 when everyone is healthy, that we should automatically be beating everybody in the league.

[Yohan]

Both interesting issues. If Defoe's hamstring was tight, he probably shouldn't have been starting, at the very least, and probably not playing. Who risks an asset that valuable in a place where only 20% of teams ever get a point?

Nelsen probably felt that he had no choice. Without Defoe, RSL might have gone with high back line to choke out TFC attack. Unfit Gilberto and slow as hell DeRo aren't going to stretch the backline. At least Defoe will keep RSL a little bit honest.

Though I'd have prefer not risking Defoe also.

The tactical issue is doubly interesting though, because the first two wins were against flat 442, same as we play. Part of the reason they cut us to pieces was that we didn't stop pressing, even against a narrow diamond, allowing plenty of space off the ball for RSL to pass around us.

Seattle played a 4-4-2 diamond too, except their 2 CMs (esp Pappa) plays more wide, negating some of effects of overlapping FB, plus Seattle doesn't have the level of team chemistry RSL has.

edit: looks like Seattle played 4-2-3-1 vs Toronto, though they normally play 4-4-2 diamond.

Next week, we have Columbus, which I believe is playing either a 4-2-3-1- or a 4-3-2-1; If we dont' adapt to that and just try to press high and counter, they'll kill us, too. Higuain is just like Morales, he loves to operate between the midfield and back line and use lateral movement to open up space for other players.

Columbus played 4-4-1-1 last game. That, or 4-2-3-1 is perfect for Higuain who finds space so well and drags a CB out of position, allowing others to exploit the gaps left behind, esp in a free role when he will often drift to flanks, causing confusion in opposition backline. Plus he can make a pass. He's torched TFC for fun before, and unless Nelsen can come up with a better plan to contain Higuain, he'll hurt us again.

We have great players, great assets; but we're still half a team, and tactically we're a ways away, still, it appears. People think I was being crazy premature for the "start the death watch" column, but they thought that about Mo, too. If we lose next week, we follow that stretch with Colorado, Dallas, New England and Vancouver. Of those, I'd say only New England should be guaranteed points.

I'd say Colorado is easier than NE to get points off of, esp at home. All Colorado goals have come off PKs. (well, 1 was a rebound from PK) NE lacks a CF, but they have been playing better lately, and Fagundez is just waiting to explode again.

[Yohan]

I think their record flatters them. Still they'll have a lot of confidence going into this game.

do you remember Mickey Mouse Cup game when Columbus passed us out of the pitch? Expect similar thing again. Going to be pretty ugly possession wise

[notthesun]

Been away all weekend, haven't watched the game or highlights. Sounds like a clean win for RSL.

I would've taken 6 points from the first 3 games coming into the season, and of the first three fixtures, this was the game to lose so to speak. Obviously we need to improve, but it's still too early to really know what we have on our hands here. I think Columbus away is a great test for this team and a win against them would be a really great bounce back game. It'll be really tough the way they're playing though.

One thing I'll say is I have no doubt Nelsen & Bezbatchenko recognize our depth issues and have discussed it already. I think we can expect signings midway through the year, when the cap hit is halved.

[Yohan]

Normally I rewatch the game before putting up my thoughts, but it was so ugly that I have no desire to see it again.

Ratings

Cesar: 5
-Looked ordinary. Getting chipped is always not pretty.

Orr: 4.5
-Aimlessly wandering around, poor positioning, esp in RSL 3rd goal

Caldwell: 4
-Brutal performance, and lucky not to be sent off for a horrid studs up tackle from behind on Grabavoy.

Henry: 4
-Makes one bonehead mistake per game, and this time was a dumb wrestling tackle that resulted in a PK.

Morrow: 5
-Ok defensively, but didn't add much going forward. He's going to have to work on that part of his game.

Bloom: 4
-Also wandered around aimlessly at RM. Was a bit better at RB after Orr sub. His runs are only effective as a fullback making an overlapping run catching the defence off guard, and I hope Nelsen never uses Bloom at RM again.

Bradley: 6
-Probably only guy who showed up, but he had his share of turnovers as well.

Hall: 5
-Better than what most people said, applying pressure in the mid esp in 1st half. Had his share of turnovers, and was virtually a non factor offensively.

Rey: 4
-Probably his worst game as a Red. Got shutdown, and couldn't impose his will on the game.

Gilberto: 4.5
-Other than a lot of frustrated long range shots, didn't do much.

Defoe: 5.5
-Had few half chances, but he wasn't getting the service he needed. As much as we'd all love yanking the Dirty Hippy's dreads, doing that in front of Toledo was probably not a good idea.

Nelsen: 3
-He outsmarted Sigi at Seattle, but he got outcoached by another rookie manager in Jeff Cassar, who really didn't do anything special; it's just Nelsen refused to adjust tactically to RSL.

-No brainer that RSL is going to play 4-4-2 diamond, which relies on possession and overlapping FBs to overrun opposition midfield. Nelsen's tactic of thinking RSL is vulnerable on counter is correct, esp if Wingert/Beltran get caught up the field and lack of speed of Borchers and Schuler at CB get exploited. But RSL at home is especially good at maintaining possession. So, TFC midfield basically had to deal with 5-6 RSL players in the mid, vs basically Bradley, because Hall was not in sync with Bradley and coming off an injury/first match of the season. Bloom was useless at RM, and Rey has never been good defensively.

-Combined with 4-5 yrs these RSL players played together, you just can't buy team chemistry, and RSL was able to hurt TFC at key times.

-Nelsen tried high pressure esp against Borchers and Schuler and had limited success. Once RSL got the ball to midfield, concentrating on shutting down Beckerman and Morales didn't work, because they always seemed to manage to find an outlet pass while under pressure, because TFC lacked numbers to defend, and Gilberto wasn't effective helping out.

-Poor personnel decision didn't help. Bloom and Orr both can't do shit at RM, but Nelsen insists playing one of them at RM. Jeremy Hall actually has experience at RM. Not ideal, but if you're looking to replicate Jackson as close as possible, Hall is probably the guy closest who can do what Jackson does. Which leaves Bekker with Bradley at CM, but at least that puts guys at their natural position, or at least familiar with, instead of shoehorning in someone.

-Defensively overmatched, and offensively, lack of creativity from the flanks, and Jeremy Hall sucking going forward meant all offence was generated by Bradley, who couldn't do anything other than balls over the top. That actually had some success, nothing once Defoe got subbed off.

-While I'm not going to write off TFC just yet, the lack of depth at certain positions are glaring. Missing Oso is just as bad as losing Bradley, IMO. Tim B will have to get to work, because few injuries and suspensions make this team really vulnerable.

-RSL at home is one of toughest team to play against, esp considering TFC's record at Rio Tinto. 6 pts out of 3 games is still better than what most of us hoped for and if TFC goes .500 by WC, I'd be satisfied. Team chemistry. Once TFC develops this, we're going to be better, as our ok players will look decent.

[redisthenewblk]

Just watched the game for a second time and wanted to share my thoughts (sorry if there is some repetition here).

After sleeping on it and coming back to reality, while still frustrating, the game wasn't as bad as it felt last night. I think there were a few missteps by Nelsen which we can chalk up to "experimentation" and learning on the job. The biggest of which was thinking that Bloom would be able to fit in at mid. As soon as Orr came off and Bloom was moved to right back, he and Rey started linking up almost immediately. This is a partnership that has been developing since the end of last season and I think it bodes well for the future of the team. As we've been saying over and over, familiarity with the other players on the team is important and RSL had that in spades. What I don't understand is why Nelsen didn't make the appropriate changes at half-time. By then it was very obvious that the experiment wasn't working.

I'm not really a Bekker fan, but he definitely looked a lot better than Hall. Granted, by the time he came in he only had 15 minutes to play and they were already 3 down so there was very little pressure. I wonder if Nelsen will consider starting DeRo or Bekker in the middle next week in Osorio's absence?

Everybody has been really hard on Jackson, but his absence made it really obvious to me what he brings to the team - we could have benefited a lot from his speed and defensive play (assuming Toledo wouldn't have given him a red card within the first five minutes ). Our wingers were completely invisible in the first half.

As for Doneil Henry, let's give the guy a break! Saborio totally baited him into that foul. With more experience he will stop making these kinds of mistakes. The last two games everyone was going on about how much he has matured and what a rock he will be for us. I think he's going to be one of the best CBs in the league - we're all human and we all do dumb shit on occasion.

So given we lost this game on midfield depth, I echo everyone else's sentiments that we need to get our buns in gear and fix this. Unfortunately, it may be difficult to do so before the draft unless we can bring in some players from outside the league which could be challenging because of the salary cap (we need to keep our draft picks). Our expectations were raised because of the early two wins, I think we just have to adjust those expectations back to where they were before the game against Seattle. It's going to take time to be elite - I have faith in our current team of managers though.

One thing that drove me NUTS: All of the RSL flopping. That was infuriating. Did anybody else notice they went down at the lightest tap and stayed on the ground for ages? Suck-it-up buttercup.

My last thought: Does anybody know why they waiting until Friday evening to fly into Utah? Had they flown in on Wednesday like they did in Seattle they would have had time to acclimatize to the altitude, the time change, the atmosphere etc. While not an excuse, they just seemed a bit squirrely.

Looking forward to the next one against Columbus. Come on you Reds!

-Deanna

[Yohan]

Just watched the game for a second time and wanted to share my thoughts (sorry if there is some repetition here).

After sleeping on it and coming back to reality, while still frustrating, the game wasn't as bad as it felt last night. I think there were a few missteps by Nelsen which we can chalk up to "experimentation" and learning on the job. The biggest of which was thinking that Bloom would be able to fit in at mid. As soon as Orr came off and Bloom was moved to right back, he and Rey started linking up almost immediately. This is a partnership that has been developing since the end of last season and I think it bodes well for the future of the team. As we've been saying over and over, familiarity with the other players on the team is important and RSL had that in spades. What I don't understand is why Nelsen didn't make the appropriate changes at half-time. By then it was very obvious that the experiment wasn't working.

Agreed. Infuriating to see Nelsen make zero adjustments at the half.

I'm not really a Bekker fan, but he definitely looked a lot better than Hall. Granted, by the time he came in he only had 15 minutes to play and they were already 3 down so there was very little pressure. I wonder if Nelsen will consider starting DeRo or Bekker in the middle next week in Osorio's absence?

DeRo simply doesn't have the stamina or speed anymore, and he rarely puts in effort defensively. Bekker can't handle pressure and has poor work rate as well. Playing either of them means Bradley has to do most of work defensively, and limits him offensively (which is critical to TFC attack right now)

As for Doneil Henry, let's give the guy a break! Saborio totally baited him into that foul. With more experience he will stop making these kinds of mistakes. The last two games everyone was going on about how much he has matured and what a rock he will be for us. I think he's going to be one of the best CBs in the league - we're all human and we all do dumb shit on occasion.

Henry has gotten better, but Henry has consistently made bonehead plays throughout his career. Hopefully he'll learn to control his aggression, but he has some really bad habits, like being overly grabby in the box. Henry will have his good days, but he'll have crappy days too. I just hope his good days outnumbers his bad days.

[james]

Not surprised. People thought we were much better then we really were in those first 2 games. We did not dominate any of the first 2 games but people were acting like we were untouchable, but in fact the other teams in some ways out played us, we just happened to come up on top but we could of easily lost. We still got a long way to go boys before we are a top team. Hopefully our players can gel together as this season continues on.

[shwade]

How about a positive? Issey. He opened up play really well, got into good positions and made the right passes. Hope he gets the start next game.

[adam1001]

Tactically speaking, we have seen the best Nelsen has to offer (which is not much). It's the same bullshit approach as last year. We try to get a goal or two up off a counter or a a mistake, then sit back on on the lead and hope for dear life that the opposition doesn't score. It's really a house league approach which will never work in the long run.

[PopePouri]

Not surprised. People thought we were much better then we really were in those first 2 games. We did not dominate any of the first 2 games but people were acting like we were untouchable, but in fact the other teams in some ways out played us, we just happened to come up on top but we could of easily lost. We still got a long way to go boys before we are a top team. Hopefully our players can gel together as this season continues on.

Exactly. DC completely outplayed us and we were lucky to get the points. They had some crazy chances.

[starter]

---
Maybe it's the quality of the pitch, but my early MLS experience has been a lot of "Why the heck can't they string 5+ passes together?"
...

The flow of RSL game looked really effortless, but there is certainly a lot of work behind it.
As long as TFC are coached with mantra "possession stats does not matter" we will not realize our investments in personnel.
Possession oriented teams can occasionally choose to play counters, but team that mostly plays counters will have hard times to play possession game.
We will do better this year, but I really wish we went after Kreis.

[Abou Sky]

Here's what I got from this thread over the last 12 hours.
Defoe is too old,
Defoe is injury prone,
Nelsen can't coach,
4-4-2 will never work,
It's time to panic,
Proof that Henry is not up to par,
We have no quality wingers,

Thank you for the contributions. Does anyone other than a handful of people talk about the facts of the game, tactically, rather than point fingers and put blame?

I don't think that pointing out our holes is necessarily negative.

DeRo IS old, but he still has his uses.
Defoe isn't necessarily injury prone, but we need to be VERY protective of him.
Nelsen's ability to coach is still questionable, his contacts OTOH are invaluable.
We don't really have much quality on the wings.

We knew these things, I am sure that the Tims and RN are working on fixing all these things. (Although it would have been nice if RN did some badges over the offseason, something I heard nothing about)

All that said, I still expect to walk out of the Colorado game in 2 weeks with 8-9 points which I think is more than respectable. If we don't pull off ANY points out of those two games, I think that it may be possible our issues are bigger than we thought.

[Abou Sky]

Exactly. DC completely outplayed us and we were lucky to get the points. They had some crazy chances.

I can't agree there, I think we WAY out played DC, both technically and tactically.

We cut them down and Hamid had an AMAZING game but with 12-15 of the keepers in this league that would have been 3-0

[ManUtd4ever]

Exactly. DC completely outplayed us and we were lucky to get the points. They had some crazy chances.

Not sure what game you watched. TFC was far from dominant the first two games, but posts like this are way over the top. Seattle and DC generated very little in the way of quality scoring chances despite their possession stats. Hell, even last night, the scoring chances were fairly even.

I'm not a fan of Nelsen's tactical approach, but considering the amount of time this roster has actually played together, our performance over the first 3 games doesn't warrant such criticism.

[speckles]

Good to see it only took 600 odd post before someone actually noted what this teams loses without Jackson.

Simply put, the manager does not have the time to develop or have a broad enough technical skilled squad to start off with a high possession game. He has to make the playoffs as his boss said so and therefore he has to get points up early or hes out. Given the world cup window makes the timing even more acute.

Actually anyone who has managed a new team at anywhere near senior level... I have talked to agrees, the odds of making it through it to the playoffs are only realistic with our top eleven being available the majority of the time. This in itself in MLS is highly unlikely. This team only has a chance of making the plays off if it getting results early, the odds are against this team and the manager so the manager is playing a high risk game as he has limited other choices...time is not on his side.

Why...ask his boss who knows a limited amount about football.

[Abou Sky]

Rewatched the condensed match. Feeling much better about the team really.

We did pretty well. RSL's goals TORE US APART, but I think they were at the top of their game, they gave a performance to be very proud of. We really didn't do that badly but were not 'at the top of our game', the PK was warranted, Henry will hopefully not do that again but he is still a great player.

Anyway, I take back most of what I said earlier, although depth is obviously an issue.

[OgtheDim]

Positives

I liked how Gilberto played.

Defoe scares opponents.

That leap by Henry was quite amazing (where he couldn't get the ball down).

Cesar's save was cool.

Bradley is Bradley.

Issy and Bekker did OK in a non-pressure situation.

We had some chances including a couple of posts.

Henry had a decent second half which shows some maturity - last season he would have panicked after a call like that on him.

The reaction after the game in the interviews was mature and realistic. Nobody looked lost.

[RealG-TFC]

Im pretty sure he was being sarcastic guys.

Exactly. DC completely outplayed us and we were lucky to get the points. They had some crazy chances.

[PopePouri]

Im pretty sure he was being sarcastic guys.

Whatever. That shot from Silva outside of the box that went straight to Julio could have easily been spilled.

[speckles]

good grief..

[ag futbol]

Whatever. That shot from Silva outside of the box that went straight to Julio could have easily been spilled.

Lol. Everyone bit down hard on that one.

[T-boy]

Tactically speaking, we have seen the best Nelsen has to offer (which is not much). It's the same bullshit approach as last year. We try to get a goal or two up off a counter or a a mistake, then sit back on on the lead and hope for dear life that the opposition doesn't score. It's really a house league approach which will never work in the long run.

How would you play against RSL away? High pressure game at altitude? Keep possession as much as possible and try and out-fitness the home team?

I would have done the same as Nelson....counter attack. It didn't work - and it doesn't work for most MLS teams, and that's why RSL have been one of the best teams in the league over the last few seasons.

[ag futbol]

One thing that drove me NUTS: All of the RSL flopping. That was infuriating. Did anybody else notice they went down at the lightest tap and stayed on the ground for ages? Suck-it-up buttercup.

My last thought: Does anybody know why they waiting until Friday evening to fly into Utah? Had they flown in on Wednesday like they did in Seattle they would have had time to acclimatize to the altitude, the time change, the atmosphere etc. While not an excuse, they just seemed a bit squirrely.

Get used to the diving, it's tactical and it unfortunately works. Other teams have already complained about the physicality of our play, this is their way of drawing attention to it. Another one or those things where real refs could clean it up if MLS was interested.

Regarding the second point: altitude adjustment is U shaped. You can perform almost regularly for the first period (unsure of how long it lasts), then you completely crash but build back to normal in the final period.

[notthesun]

I'm hoping we see Gilberto start to assert himself going forward. Hopefully it will show that he's adjusting in the same way Laba did when he arrived. Laba was ok for 3-4 games then began playing really well.

Gilberto can really strike a ball, with either foot. He just needs to get comfortable.