Rate Mariner: June 2012

[Canary10]

It's legitimate to think the system won't work. But that's a debate for when we were figuring out what system to play. We made that decision already. I can't see the benefit of now throwing the baby out with the bathwater mid stream yet again. We've gone from a defense first sytem, to a possession oriented attacking sytem, to a basic kick and run system in the span of three years, each time having to fundamentally alter the personnel playing the system. I can't see how that's good for the club in the short or long-term. Certainly wasn't how RSL, Seattle, Dallas and the other successful clubs have done it.

[Canary10]

Reminds me of a Groucho Marx line: "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others."

[Beach_Red]

It's legitimate to think the system won't work. But that's a debate for when we were figuring out what system to play. We made that decision already. I can't see the benefit of now throwing the baby out with the bathwater mid stream yet again. We've gone from a defense first sytem, to a possession oriented attacking sytem, to a basic kick and run system in the span of three years, each time having to fundamentally alter the personnel playing the system. I can't see how that's good for the club in the short or long-term. Certainly wasn't how RSL, Seattle, Dallas and the other successful clubs have done it.

True. But none of those teams made a big deal about playing a different style (and none of them talked about, "changing the way the game is played in North America" - that kind of arrogance from MLSE is very telling), they just went about their business and did it. And none of them started a season 0-9. Sure, they may have toughed it out anyway, but we'll never know.

[Canary10]

I just can't see how it's good for the club to keep getting then shedding players around a constantly shifting playing style.

[pekduck]

It's legitimate to think the system won't work. But that's a debate for when we were figuring out what system to play. We made that decision already. I can't see the benefit of now throwing the baby out with the bathwater mid stream yet again. We've gone from a defense first sytem, to a possession oriented attacking sytem, to a basic kick and run system in the span of three years, each time having to fundamentally alter the personnel playing the system. I can't see how that's good for the club in the short or long-term. Certainly wasn't how RSL, Seattle, Dallas and the other successful clubs have done it.

they have real ownership and a sporting mentality combined with experience in the sport

we lack a real owner, real visionary, real leader at management level who understand this sport. some of the moves (beyond player transfers) over the years reeks amateur maneuvers, organizational deficiency and outright political turf wars

[ManUtd4ever]

10 out of 19 teams are playing that system.

This is simply not the case. Winter's version of the 4-3-3 was far more intricate and complex than any of the 4-3-3 variations being utilized successfully by other MLS clubs. That is precisely why it failed miserably at the MLS level.

I've watched many MLS matches over the last couple of seasons involving other clubs that play the 4-3-3, and while the formations were comparable, the style of play was not. The 4-3-3 variations that other MLS clubs have implemented do not involve the same level of positional rotation, and they are based on a far more direct style of play than the system that Winter emphasized.

[Kaz]

I'm happy with that. Out with a system that didn't work, and wouldn't never organically work in the MLS, and replacing it with something that has, so far, worked! Fantastic!

Winter's system didn't work because he played it the same way.... he allowed for very little creativity, didn't spend enough time in the right area's and didn't build a strong enough back line.

What Winter did was basically the reverse of Preki. (not completely but close, attacking without strong defence, but that was a failure in players and coaching not in style)

Several clubs can make 4-3-3 work.

The players are there, the players are there to be developed. as well. If they work on 4-3-3 with creativity and that can just as easily go through the centre, as the wings, as well as long ball it from time to time, and can effectively defend a counter attack, set pieces, then you are set.

That is where Winter failed.. he developed a team that was week on set pieces, struggled on counters, and attacked almost exclusively from the wings. It wasn't the 4-3-3 it was the coach... and if it was the players it is still the coach because he brought them in, or allowed them to be brought in. Because Winter never adjusted his style, never modified it for the players, he stuck to his plan. It was like trying to defend a city like it had functional fortifications while those fortifications were still being built.

If we get a decent CB out of all this, and lose 2-3 defenders in the off season, and bring in a replacement for Soolsma, get Plata Back, and some back up in the DM and back up for Koevs. Then the 4-3-3 can be brought back without issue.

Though I don't think Winter's system was ready to be used... he should have been put in charge of the academy and brought Mariner to Coach the first time for a few years while the academy was developing the players to fit this system and then put Winter in Charge, 3-4 years down the road. Even then I'm not so sure.

[ag futbol]

This is simply not the case. Winter's version of the 4-3-3 was far more intricate and complex than any of the 4-3-3 variations being utilized successfully by other MLS clubs. That is precisely why it failed miserably at the MLS level.

I've watched many MLS matches over the last couple of seasons involving other clubs that play the 4-3-3, and while the formations were comparable, the style of play was not. The 4-3-3 variations that other MLS clubs have implemented do not involve the same level of positional rotation, and they are based on a far more direct style of play than the system that Winter emphasized.

Right, so given that Winter was too far in one direction, wouldn't it be more logical for us to change to one that's closer to the same end of the spectrum?

[ManUtd4ever]

Right, so given that Winter was too far in one direction, wouldn't it be more logical for us to change to one that's closer to the same end of the spectrum?

Well, that remains to be seen. In a general context, I concur with your logic, but Mariner has decided that the makeup of our roster is more condusive to executing the 4-4-2 and 4-3-1-2 effectively in order to achieve results in the short term. Therefore, it's entirely reasonable if we judge him based on the results in the short term as well, meaning the duration of this season.

[ag futbol]

Well, that remains to be seen. In a general context, I concur with your logic, but Mariner has decided that the makeup of our roster is more condusive to executing the 4-4-2 and 4-3-1-2 effectively in order to achieve results in the short term. Therefore, it's entirely reasonable if we judge him based on the results in the short term as well, meaning the duration of this season.

I think that's fair. I haven't liked our 4-4-2 much, but the 4-3-1-2 has been ok.

For me personally, I'll be looking at the short-term results and the ability of the management team to find upgrades in the summer window.

Cheers

[T-boy]

10 out of 19 teams are playing that system.

They are playing 4-3-3, NOT Aron Winter's extremely complicated version of it! There is a reason why its called the Ajax model....cos Ajax played it! Not the MLS! Can you name another MLS team who is playing Winter's system? (I'm not just talking formation, I'm talking the extremely complex version that Winter brought with him).

[T-boy]

Winter's system didn't work because he played it the same way.... he allowed for very little creativity, didn't spend enough time in the right area's and didn't build a strong enough back line.

What Winter did was basically the reverse of Preki. (not completely but close, attacking without strong defence, but that was a failure in players and coaching not in style)

Several clubs can make 4-3-3 work.

The players are there, the players are there to be developed. as well. If they work on 4-3-3 with creativity and that can just as easily go through the centre, as the wings, as well as long ball it from time to time, and can effectively defend a counter attack, set pieces, then you are set.

That is where Winter failed.. he developed a team that was week on set pieces, struggled on counters, and attacked almost exclusively from the wings. It wasn't the 4-3-3 it was the coach... and if it was the players it is still the coach because he brought them in, or allowed them to be brought in. Because Winter never adjusted his style, never modified it for the players, he stuck to his plan. It was like trying to defend a city like it had functional fortifications while those fortifications were still being built.

If we get a decent CB out of all this, and lose 2-3 defenders in the off season, and bring in a replacement for Soolsma, get Plata Back, and some back up in the DM and back up for Koevs. Then the 4-3-3 can be brought back without issue.

Though I don't think Winter's system was ready to be used... he should have been put in charge of the academy and brought Mariner to Coach the first time for a few years while the academy was developing the players to fit this system and then put Winter in Charge, 3-4 years down the road. Even then I'm not so sure.

Fantastic post IMO, agreed fully.

[Pookie]

This is simply not the case. Winter's version of the 4-3-3 was far more intricate and complex than any of the 4-3-3 variations being utilized successfully by other MLS clubs. That is precisely why it failed miserably at the MLS level.

I've watched many MLS matches over the last couple of seasons involving other clubs that play the 4-3-3, and while the formations were comparable, the style of play was not. The 4-3-3 variations that other MLS clubs have implemented do not involve the same level of positional rotation, and they are based on a far more direct style of play than the system that Winter emphasized.

I say this respectfully but I think you are missing the fact that Winter's system was actually Klinsmann's blueprint.

The same blueprint that the entire US Soccer Federation has adopted and subsequently each US MLS Academy and soon to be first teams will adopt (10 of 19 as Denime says or 10 of 16 US Teams).

Klinsmann gave us the model. Maybe Winter's interpretation of it was too complex. Fine. Dumb it down a shade but don't throw it out. Bring in someone else, like a Rongen who is still with the bloody team FFS.

When US Soccer Federation goes one route and we choose to go another, after getting the plans from the guy that is driving US Soccer... and we play in the US Soccer league for all intents and purposes... that's dumb. To argue otherwise is to believe Anselmi knows more about football and can set direction better than the US Soccer Federation/Jurgen Klinsmann.

[denime]

This is simply not the case. Winter's version of the 4-3-3 was far more intricate and complex than any of the 4-3-3 variations being utilized successfully by other MLS clubs. That is precisely why it failed miserably at the MLS level.

I've watched many MLS matches over the last couple of seasons involving other clubs that play the 4-3-3, and while the formations were comparable, the style of play was not. The 4-3-3 variations that other MLS clubs have implemented do not involve the same level of positional rotation, and they are based on a far more direct style of play than the system that Winter emphasized.

I like when you throw in how complex was his system,FFS 10 years old kids playing it today in NA,it is pass and move system,movement of the ball.

I do understand that for that system you must have PROFESSIONAL players that can PASS and MOVE.

Formation is 433 point to the back what ends up a 4-1-2-3,or in some games Winter played 3-4-3.

Like I wrote 10 year old kids can do it;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DThjb...layer_embedded

[jloome]

Winter's system didn't work because he played it the same way.... he allowed for very little creativity, didn't spend enough time in the right area's and didn't build a strong enough back line.

He also didn't adapt tactically to full-field pressure. He had to push higher up the field and build down the wings instead of from the back, because MLS players aren't generally all able to escape pressure AND outlet the ball accurately. In Europe, on a top team like Ajax, full-field pressure often gets pulled apart by individual brilliance. That wasn't going to happen here.

The question to me (and don't get me wrong, I like winning) is whether Mariner saddled him with players he knew would have no chance at succeeding at a building-from-the-back tactical approach.

But ultimately, it was still up to Winter to recognize this and adjust, and he simply wasn't flexible enough to do so.When the team had player meetings, it was clear from teh Kocic interview that they shared their concern about not challenging the other team enough, they came out with high pressure in Winter's last two games, and we got results.

Again, that wouldn't have turned Winter into a tactician, and he was going to have to adjust again at some point. I don't think he was close to ready or smart enough for this level, just a nice, honest ex-pro.

Mariner on the other hand seems likely to win some games. Not sure I'd trust him with a wooden nickel, but he'll win some.

[ManUtd4ever]

I like when you throw in how complex was his system,FFS 10 years old kids playing it today in NA,it is pass and move system,movement of the ball.

I do understand that for that system you must have PROFESSIONAL players that can PASS and MOVE.

Formation is 433 point to the back what ends up a 4-1-2-3,or in some games Winter played 3-4-3.

Like I wrote 10 year old kids can do it;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DThjb...layer_embedded

Denime, I have no doubt that these kids are being trained to be tactically adept at that level in their formative years. In fact, it's very encouraging for the future of football in Canada and the U.S.

Unfortunately, that doesn't change the reality that it is extremely difficult and highly unlikely to field a competitive roster in a salary capped league like MLS that can execute the Ajax model of the 4-3-3, based on the general pedigree of the current generation of most players that are available within the league imposed salary constraints.

Your post just reinforces the rationale for gradually implementing the philosophy with the first team over the next few years with the next generation of homegrown talent.

[jloome]

WOW just wow.. I just watched a bit of the link you put up and am amazed how well some of those kids can play.. I just witnessed more consecutive passes by 10 years old then i have seen our guys put together in quite a long time..

It's not the complexity at issue. Denime is right; kids can do it. But as Edmonton discovered (they did well with it for the first half of their first season), it only works if the kids using the system can play at speed with it, to match the speed of the pressure they'll face. Two sets of 11-year-olds may generally be very equal, so they can adjust and adapt easily to the speed required to deliver the ball accurately to escape pressure.

But at the pro level, it's a hell of a lot harder to make that adjustment. Remember when Frings dwelt too long on the ball against RSL and they stripped him in front? That's what happens when you play the 4-3-3 with guys who can't make quick decisions.

We didn't have the right players for that system. But even though I accept that may have been based on front office duplicity and politics, I also note that Winter wasn't at field level, didn't recognize it, didn't adapt. He was either taken out by a corporate predator or offered himself up to one by being bad at his job.

I agree with Denime that it's realistic to make this work on MLS; but that doesn't mean easy. It means expensive, taking time, signing smart, quick players and bringng up only the best of your own kids. It's a long haul turnaround, and should have been sold as such.

They should have been direct in their expectations, but they all snowed themselves with the quality of the late run last year and performance in CONCACAF, where the other teams also play possession football and don't even start challenging the ball until it crosses midifield. So they got a sense that it was going faster than anticipated and started making claims about the playoffs.

What they should have said from the start is "we're going to play possession football, which means rebuilding the team, and that's going to take two or three years of hard work." If we'd heard that in March, things on this board would be quite different.

[denime]

WOW just wow.. I just watched a bit of the link you put up and am amazed how well some of those kids can play.. I just witnessed more consecutive passes by 10 years old then i have seen our guys put together in quite a long time..

U11 California kids,it makes me lough every time when I hear excuse how "Winter System" was complex.

Receive,pass,move, is complex indeed for Dunefeild,the rest of team should be able to execute this system.

Tomorrow Hershey centre from 9am until 3pm if any of you have some time drop by to see GTA kids from Sigma FC U11-U15 playing this complex 433 system,exactly the one Winter was trying to implement with our 1st team,and than Sunday 9am at OSA one more possession based game.


Complex

[denime]

It's not the complexity at issue. Denime is right; kids can do it. But as Edmonton discovered (they did well with it for the first half of their first season), it only works if the kids using the system can play at speed with it, to match the speed of the pressure they'll face. Two sets of 11-year-olds may generally be very equal, so they can adjust and adapt easily to the speed required to deliver the ball accurately to escape pressure.

But at the pro level, it's a hell of a lot harder to make that adjustment. Remember when Frings dwelt too long on the ball against RSL and they stripped him in front? That's what happens when you play the 4-3-3 with guys who can't make quick decisions.

We didn't have the right players for that system. But even though I accept that may have been based on front office duplicity and politics, I also note that Winter wasn't at field level, didn't recognize it, didn't adapt. He was either taken out by a corporate predator or offered himself up to one by being bad at his job.

I agree with Denime that it's realistic to make this work on MLS; but that doesn't mean easy. It means expensive, taking time, signing smart, quick players and bringng up only the best of your own kids. It's a long haul turnaround, and should have been sold as such.

They should have been direct in their expectations, but they all snowed themselves with the quality of the late run last year and performance in CONCACAF, where the other teams also play possession football and don't even start challenging the ball until it crosses midifield. So they got a sense that it was going faster than anticipated and started making claims about the playoffs.

What they should have said from the start is "we're going to play possession football, which means rebuilding the team, and that's going to take two or three years of hard work." If we'd heard that in March, things on this board would be quite different.

Agree on all of the above,TFC FO fuck this one up once again.Winter wasn't the right person for the job,he was cheap solution,I have no problem with firing Winter although month or two earlier would be probably better,my problem is that TFC FO with Cockrane and Mariner did absolutely nothing to help Winter and BDK to implement this philosophy/culture change and now they are running the circus with total overhaul,right move would be to give BDK interim coach title for the rest of the season and tweak it as we go.
Playing 442 and having academy learning 433 will fire back,yo can not switch overnight,unless you bring all 18 academy player into 1st team at once,other wise all boys coming from 433 will have to learn boot ball once they end up,when and how you implement 433 when majority of your team is playing442,how you switch with same players?


Damn,this is wrong thread for this discussion,lets go back to topic.

This is more for Rate the mariner thread.

[DaBandit]

It's not the complexity at issue. Denime is right; kids can do it. But as Edmonton discovered (they did well with it for the first half of their first season), it only works if the kids using the system can play at speed with it, to match the speed of the pressure they'll face. Two sets of 11-year-olds may generally be very equal, so they can adjust and adapt easily to the speed required to deliver the ball accurately to escape pressure.

But at the pro level, it's a hell of a lot harder to make that adjustment. Remember when Frings dwelt too long on the ball against RSL and they stripped him in front? That's what happens when you play the 4-3-3 with guys who can't make quick decisions.

We didn't have the right players for that system. But even though I accept that may have been based on front office duplicity and politics, I also note that Winter wasn't at field level, didn't recognize it, didn't adapt. He was either taken out by a corporate predator or offered himself up to one by being bad at his job.

I agree with Denime that it's realistic to make this work on MLS; but that doesn't mean easy. It means expensive, taking time, signing smart, quick players and bringng up only the best of your own kids. It's a long haul turnaround, and should have been sold as such.

They should have been direct in their expectations, but they all snowed themselves with the quality of the late run last year and performance in CONCACAF, where the other teams also play possession football and don't even start challenging the ball until it crosses midifield. So they got a sense that it was going faster than anticipated and started making claims about the playoffs.

What they should have said from the start is "we're going to play possession football, which means rebuilding the team, and that's going to take two or three years of hard work." If we'd heard that in March, things on this board would be quite different.

Great post J,

But here's the thing.. They did sell it as a re-building process, after every single game last year Winter mentioned 'rebuilding', almost to nausea. So what happened to the PLAN of rebuilding, i think the frustrating part is that they did sell it as a rebuild and change in philosophy. Then bang, we are going a complete different direction.. Do i think Winter was the right guy to continue, no, but I feel that whoever took over should have stuck to the initial philosophy. A would be happy with a dumbed down version of the 4-3-3 if the initial plan was too complicated for MLS. As Denime mentioned, pass and move its pretty simple if you ask me. And if most of our players can not do that then the question is why are they here and who is responsible for them being here..

[Canary10]

Great post J,

But here's the thing.. They did sell it as a re-building process, after every single game last year Winter mentioned 'rebuilding', almost to nausea. So what happened to the PLAN of rebuilding, i think the frustrating part is that they did sell it as a rebuild and change in philosophy. Then bang, we are going a complete different direction.. Do i think Winter was the right guy to continue, no, but I feel that whoever took over should have stuck to the initial philosophy. A would be happy with a dumbed down version of the 4-3-3 if the initial plan was too complicated for MLS. As Denime mentioned, pass and move its pretty simple if you ask me. And if most of our players can not do that then the question is why are they here and who is responsible for them being here..

I think the FO underestimated the fans' willingness to be patient. As you can see from the board, there is more than a majority of people who were willing to stick to the plan. The FO was the one that cold feet, probably aided by some Mariner pushing.

[Ultra & Proud]

Agree ,brand of football we play now is 'when under pressure Boot it" hoofball, instead pass, move ,possession brand that previous coach wanted to implement.

And that hold the ball and pass it out of the back left all of the our opponents, who are very athletic in this league, to toss 8 players forward to pressure us and force errors since we could never 'hoof' it out of the back and thus single handedly make us the worst defensive team in the history of the league. I admit it was exciting though. You knew you were never going to see a 0-0 yawner with us playing.

[DaBandit]

Agree on all of the above,TFC FO fuck this one up once again.Winter wasn't the right person for the job,he was cheap solution,I have no problem with firing Winter although month or two earlier would be probably better,my problem is that TFC FO with Cockrane and Mariner did absolutely nothing to help Winter and BDK to implement this philosophy/culture change and now they are running the circus with total overhaul,right move would be to give BDK interim coach title for the rest of the season and tweak it as we go.
Playing 442 and having academy learning 433 will fire back,yo can not switch overnight,unless you bring all 18 academy player into 1st team at once,other wise all boys coming from 433 will have to learn boot ball once they end up,when and how you implement 433 when majority of your team is playing442,how you switch with same players?


Damn,this is wrong thread for this discussion,lets go back to topic.

This is more for Rate the mariner thread.

I was going to say this as well, how do you 'Gradually' implement the system being played at the academy into the first team, if the 1st team is playing 442?

Sorry last post..

[jloome]

Great post J,

But here's the thing.. They did sell it as a re-building process, .

Not well. They kept saying it was a rebuilding process but at the same time, Winter himself said we could still make the playoffs in year one. Yes, they sold it as rebuilding but they undersold it. They should have been much more conservative.

I agree on the player front; in fact, given how we were playing and with whom, it's almost like we signed players who'd perform better in a 442 (i.e. lots of fullback overlap, complimentary forwards, multiple DMs) Hmmmmmm.........

See, here's the abject reality. I'm not sure i care if he's a wanker or not, if he puts a winning and entertaining product on the field. These people are all paid to play soccer for a living; I'm never going to feel too sorry for any of them.

Be interesting to see how JDG fits in Dallas. They tend to build into a possession zone, like the Mexican teams, so it might work for him. He's good at holding, generally, and delivers an OK pass.

[Canary10]

And that hold the ball and pass it out of the back left all of the our opponents, who are very athletic in this league, to toss 8 players forward to pressure us and force errors since we could never 'hoof' it out of the back and thus single handedly make us the worst defensive team in the history of the league. I admit it was exciting though. You knew you were never going to see a 0-0 yawner with us playing.

They're no better defensively hoofing it out.

[denime]

Not well. They kept saying it was a rebuilding process but at the same time, Winter himself said we could still make the playoffs in year one. Yes, they sold it as rebuilding but they undersold it. They should have been much more conservative.

I agree on the player front; in fact, given how we were playing and with whom, it's almost like we signed players who'd perform better in a 442 (i.e. lots of fullback overlap, complimentary forwards, multiple DMs) Hmmmmmm.........

See, here's the abject reality. I'm not sure i care if he's a wanker or not, if he puts a winning and entertaining product on the field. These people are all paid to play soccer for a living; I'm never going to feel too sorry for any of them.

Be interesting to see how JDG fits in Dallas. They tend to build into a possession zone, like the Mexican teams, so it might work for him. He's good at holding, generally, and delivers an OK pass.

Exactly,Hmmmmmm.........

[DaBandit]

Not well. They kept saying it was a rebuilding process but at the same time, Winter himself said we could still make the playoffs in year one. Yes, they sold it as rebuilding but they undersold it. They should have been much more conservative.

I agree on the player front; in fact, given how we were playing and with whom, it's almost like we signed players who'd perform better in a 442 (i.e. lots of fullback overlap, complimentary forwards, multiple DMs) Hmmmmmm.........

See, here's the abject reality. I'm not sure i care if he's a wanker or not, if he puts a winning and entertaining product on the field. These people are all paid to play soccer for a living; I'm never going to feel too sorry for any of them.

Be interesting to see how JDG fits in Dallas. They tend to build into a possession zone, like the Mexican teams, so it might work for him. He's good at holding, generally, and delivers an OK pass.

Your right very true.. Winter basically through himself under the bus.. The word playoffs should never have come out of anybody's mouths last year.

[Ajax TFC]

Winter wasn't the right man for the job, but what we needed even more than a new coach was someone who knew how to hire a coach. We need a president who knows how the game should be played and has extensive experience with soccer in north america. His job would be to hire/fire the head coach, hire scouts and a technical director, and oversee the academy. And the beauty of it is that we already have the guy to do the job on the pay role. Just give the keys to the club to Rongen already FFS

[Ultra & Proud]

They're no better defensively hoofing it out.

Almost every stat says otherwise (GA, GD, Wins, SO). Possession is down but most of that was BS possession anyways so it added up to nothing.

[trane]

I know that it is another level. But you know, Italy could go from 3-5-2, to 4-3-1-2, to a 4-2-3-1, with almost the same players. Two things the players must have basic footy understanding, and what the manager asks them to do must be well defined, understood and within the players ability. There was a clearly a disconnect under winter, (well even since our first game in MLS)