New Vanney evaluation thread

[Kaz]

Not to nitpick (and I'm enjoying your rationale btw) but many would consider the perfect team to maintain a one goal lead and possession of the ball. We are obviously not that confident yet but it's seldom seen anywhere.

I'm not one of them.

2 goal lead gives that buffer.

1 goal is a best case. I'm a strong believer in hope for the best plan for the worse. As such you should always try to get at least 2 goals. If you have 1 goal and are just protecting that single goal lead you are asking for a late game goal against costing you two points. A poor penalty call, a injury... any number of things.

Ideally to me. (realistically) 1 goal great make sure to keep your shape defensively, don't take any needlessly risky chances that open you up to counters, but at the same time patiently try to break them down and keep pushing up for that goal. When you have a second goal.. you keep pushing for another.. because 3 goals are better than two.. Defend through attack gives everyone a chance to think, and forces the other team to keep thinking about defending on top of attacking. If you never push more than 1 or 2 people past the half except the occasional counter the other team knows it can focus on attack.. that is needlessly risky. At least to me.

[reggie]

i think vanney has done a fine job this season with all the injuries,i think the big fail again is BEZ unable to a make a good deal in the summer transfer window to boost this club in the dog days of summer.

[Richard]

i think vanney has done a fine job this season with all the injuries,i think the big fail again is BEZ unable to a make a good deal in the summer transfer window to boost this club in the dog days of summer.

My issue is less with getting players in the summer window, the lack of foresight before the start of the season that a solid AM was also something we needed is more concerning.

I'm not really fond of summer acquisitions either though in truth, I believe you should get all of your major moves done in the offseason and make minor adjustments midseason. Only a team in a rebuilding mode should look to add significant pieces in the summer, we only need about one more significant piece.

[reggie]

totally agree with you on that..but he blew his cap amount at the start of the season.when he got rid of PERQUIS,he should had somebody in his hip pocket and now he has around 200 k cap space in his hip pocket doing nothing.

[Richard]

Its hard to say how much cap room we do have, but yes they did screw up with Kantar/Gomez/Luke Moore/Perquis.

I will give management credit for signing Ricketts though, he looks like the summer deal you were talking about, amazing how I'm doing a 180' on the guy haha.

[molenshtain]

totally agree with you on that..but he blew his cap amount at the start of the season.when he got rid of PERQUIS,he should had somebody in his hip pocket and now he has around 200 k cap space in his hip pocket doing nothing.

He's not going to needlessly handicap our cap again after what happened last year. I don't think the club sees A cup as likely this year, all things considered. Better to save the money for the off-season when we have a lot of cap space and let the kids get the needed minutes.

It's cup or bust next year, and we'll see the signings in the off-season as evidence of that. 'till then this is what we got.

[sn0re]

Check out this tweet at [URL]https://twitter.com/BobbyBrizzo/status/761632806401376256?s=09[/URL]

There is still room left, folks

[Detroit_TFC]

I was nervous about the 3-5-2 but it wrecked NER. Good call from Vanney on that one.

[Gazza_55]

Check out this tweet at [URL]https://twitter.com/BobbyBrizzo/status/761632806401376256?s=09[/URL]

There is still room left, folks

Nice!!!!

[Kaz]

I'm not sure it is Vanney's wagon, he is at the wagons but I don't think he is getting directions from someone else. That being said he deserves some credit for that game. We actually kept searching for goals, we were fairly strong defensively.

NER is a team we should have beat like that.. so far we are playing to our potential this is a good thing. If we keep doing that I suspect Vanney and Bez will keep their jobs. If it is Manning pulling the strings forcing us to play to that potential great.. if it is Vanney actually getting a clue that is good too.

I'm certainly on no Van Wagon though..

[Oldtimer]

Sorry but Philly is crap who's luck ran out. They have nothing or nobody special on their roster.
TFC will get at LEAST 6 points out of the next 4 games. Book it.

Half way there now!

[Oldtimer]

First Vanney only won because of Giovinco. Now he only wins because of Manning directing him. Poor guy never gets any credit here.

[reggie]

that is true..but sure doesnt hurt to have a guy like Seba on your team.

[Kaz]

First Vanney only won because of Giovinco. Now he only wins because of Manning directing him. Poor guy never gets any credit here.

Actually if you look back I have criticized Vanney for a long while. Particularly his give Gio the Ball and hope for the best strategy which I think lead to Seba feeling too much pressure putting him off his game. When Gio gets a free Kick that isn't Vanney.

I also don't think a person that has been doing things the same way all season long suddenly changes and starts asking the team to actually play as a team without some form of outside influence. I don't rule it out.. I don't however think it is all Vanney. I think I have been fair in my opinions and criticisms of Vanney. I have used stats and game play for the most part to state my case. My opinion has always been malleable and the recent play has actually seen a change and has seen me give Vanney his due when it is clearly him. The Change we have seen I do not see has being all Vanney it happened to rapidly. Going from playing for a single goal and then basically only sending people on the attack opportunistically here and there for the rest of the game to suddenly playing as a team, and attacking for much larger amounts of the game is not a change that one expects without outside pressure so late in the season.

So no.. I have not felt that we only won because of Gio and I don't place everything on Manning. It isn't that simple. The whole of the argument that I have repeatedly presented in a statistical and malleable way has been based on the play and results not on a rhetorical talking point or a unfounded narrative as this statement suggests.

More so my opinion hasn't changed with wins or loses alone but with the game play and overall form of the team, tactical changes and substitutions. My opinion isn't not Rhetoric.. it is instead a formed opinion based on real world data. I shouldn't have to defend the nature of my opinion in this way though. I realize it isn't a popular opinion when we are winning... it isn't however deserving of condescension

[Oldtimer]

No condescension Kaz (tone of voice is hard to read), I just feel you haven't given credit where due. I like Molinaro's balance from this tweet :

John Molinaro
John Molinaro‏ @JohnMolinaro
@VLKE my sense is he doesn't get enough credit from fans. He deserves it, though. He's blossoming into a good coach.

[Oldtimer]

Vanney was not that good a coach when he took over, he was too inexperienced. What I saw early on though was a technical geek side and a willingness to learn. So I was willing to give him a chance.

[Red CB Toronto]

Vanney was not that good a coach when he took over, he was too inexperienced. What I saw early on though was a technical geek side and a willingness to learn. So I was willing to give him a chance.

Fact is everyone coach is/was a first timer at some point which means they are inexperienced. Greg has brought it to the Reds, stabilizing things along with Bez. None of the circus stuff that has gone on way too many times in the past.

[Detroit_TFC]

The tactical flexibility is welcome, whether it is the product of Vanney figuring things out, Manning sorting things out, or the informal coaches in the dressing room. Likely a combination of all three.

[ronzilla]

Vanney was not that good a coach when he took over, he was too inexperienced. What I saw early on though was a technical geek side and a willingness to learn. So I was willing to give him a chance.

Having a super star on the team is covering up a lot of Vanneys mistakes. If Giovinco was a mediocre player, Vanney would have been out the door at beggining of season.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Check out this tweet at [URL]https://twitter.com/BobbyBrizzo/status/761632806401376256?s=09[/URL]

There is still room left, folks

Bobby's got a good one there but I'd go with - The Vanney Vanwagon.

[Kaz]

No condescension Kaz (tone of voice is hard to read), I just feel you haven't given credit where due. I like Molinaro's balance from this tweet :

Then you clearly haven't read my comments check the game threads and further back in this thread.

That comment was sarcasm if not condescension... and it seems to fall under the "attacking the person not the argument" area to me. Which you have openly admited to doing here and it is a no no on the boards these days. I stayed out of this thread of a while due to the fact that I could give data and facts and it is ignored with these kinds of comments and only came back in when I was sure the "attacking the person" censures weren't bias modding. The "we win, vanney good" argument to me is pointless without real data to back it up. I'll give him credit when he does something deserving of it... and I do.

You have to give Vanney credit for the Youngsters play, though you also have to criticize the metal shape they were in on Wednesday, both those things are the coaches job to deal with.

I was going to say something nice about Vanney.. but now we are playing absorb the pressure Vanney Ball instead of defending through offense which is just annoying and asking for a mistake to happen.

I have to give them credit. This is the way I like seeing the team playing. Chasing goals. Though I'm worried about Vanney ball in the second half. Still that half worked out well... Though honestly without Gio on the pitch it would still be nil nil

-----


Actually until about 2 weeks ago Vanney ball was play for a goal and then try to absorb pressure for the rest of the match and hope for the best. which is why we have so many 1 goal games this year compared to last year.

Each of those acknowledge what I have saw on the field.

We have seen a significant change in general shape. Earlier in the thread it was suggested that Vanney was given a talking to.. suddenly after San Jose we started seeing a massive change. The team started working together, all the things that I've criticized all season started to melt away. Unsurprisingly once we stopped playing a game of give gio the ball and hope for the best the pressure was taken off him and he started raining goals down. The rest of the team looked dangerous and had to be dealt with once we started passing and playing as a team and keep putting pressure instead of just bunkering down once we scored. We went from teams swarm Gio ignoring most of the rest of the team to having to actually watch for runs from everyone. Which gave gio the space to do his thing as well as the chance for others to do things.

That has only improved since then. Yesterday we played most of the game playing for more goals, looking to score the whole game, which left us open to a counter where we made a single mistake but we scored 4 goals and had 1 scored against. 2 of those goals came from Gio being Gio but the first was a team play, the second was a bit of confusion. The Third game from team play and the fourth was a sneaky goal but a goal from a hungry team.. a team allowed to play. Had we played typical Vanney Ball we likely would have tied or lost as they would have spent most of the game crossing in looking for goals.

Chapman said in a mid game interview (a few games back) that Vanney has allowed them to attack more.

All of these changes don't happen from a coach like Vanney without outside pressure not when all season things have been the same. It is a total turn around. Something clearly has happened. The question becomes is this a blip or is this the new Normal. I don't know yet.. it has been two weeks. No where enough time to excuse 5 months of valid concerns. As such my opinion hasn't been swayed on Vanney yet.. there isn't enough data.

There had to be some major changes. If Manning is responsible for us starting to play as a team and drop the give it to Gio and bunker down into Vanney ball if we are up by a single goal for the whole game.. my opinion of Manning has gone way up. That seems to be the change. We are attacking more we are pushing harder. These are good things. I still see Vanney ball but no where near as often.

to which

Freudian slip

But yeah, Manning had some serous issues with tactics and how we are not playing 'our' game especially at home. To Vanneys credit he listened and adjusted. Its seems to be going well. Lets keep the finger crossed.

The question now becomes will he keep listening.

which is why I said later

Or he realized that Vanney isn't capable of making sound strategies on his own and is forcing him down the path a little. Vanney seems to be the kind of guy that would be a great assistant and youth coach.. but He was told in the off season not to let in too many goals and rather than creating a sound strategy with an offensively capable team he create Vanney Ball the give Gio the Ball and no one else and once we get a gaol park the bus and dare teams to take points strategy that I have been complaining about for most of the season. We finally started seeing at the end of July the team playing together and building up play forcing defenders to looks at the rest of the team. Suddenly Gio Breaks his Goalless streak.

Since than we have seen most games result in multiple TFC goals. instead of the more common 1 per game. Prior to July 23rd we only scored more than 1 goal in just 5 out of 19 games only two of those were wins. Our first 3 game streak of the year came from the team pushing for goals for most of the match. Our defensive shape is good. our offensive pieces are there, we have the ability to play. Last season we scored more than 2 goals in 10 games out of the first 19.

If we are finally going to be an offensive side again and actually chase multiple goals a game and play as a unit where everyone not just Giovinco and defenders are considered potential goal scorers I think we could do very well for the rest of the season.

Vanney has the ability to coach.. the shape we have seen lately shows that.. no matter what our attacking shape is we should defend as a team that is a normal thing to do, however I don't think he has the ability to create winning strategies on his own. He needs to be pushed by outside forces to be successful. If Manning is able to do that and it works.. great.

There was certainly a change. Sadly It is still Vanney on game day.. RSL shows the issue there where he basically tried playing the same exact game as he did against Columbus. RSL has some poor defensive shape at times.. yet we regularly went out to the wings when on the attack giving RSL the extra few seconds to compose themselves. There was a communication issue too, we had to attacking players (I think it was Osorio and Hamilton) run into each other in what could have been a strong goal scoring chance. It literally looked like part of a montage of a bad team in a comedy movie. I expected to see a replay with Benny Hill music. these kinds of errors shouldn't happen. The players should know their roles well enough that one of them calls it and the other preps for a rebound run.

I still see things regularly that suggest bad coaching or bad mentality. Hamilton likely shouldn't have started the second half. Either he isn't in it mentally or the rest of the team thinks he isn't because people did not want to let him touch the ball.

But ya never do I give Vanney credit for anything.

clearly my opinions have been set all season and haven't evolved and reflected the play on the pitch. I'm just a nonsensical person spewing nonsense and deserving of no more respect of my opinion than sarcastic condescension.

[noimpactinmtl]

Having a super star on the team is covering up a lot of Vanneys mistakes. If Giovinco was a mediocre player, Vanney would have been out the door at beggining of season.

A bad pass, botched coverage, being at the butt end of poor refereeing or just a depleted team are far bigger factors than Vanney's tactical mistakes when it coms to losses.

[Oldtimer]

Then you clearly haven't read my comments check the game threads and further back in this thread.

That comment was sarcasm if not condescension... and it seems to fall under the "attacking the person not the argument" area to me. Which you have openly admited to doing here and it is a no no on the boards these days. I stayed out of this thread of a while due to the fact that I could give data and facts and it is ignored with these kinds of comments and only came back in when I was sure the "attacking the person" censures weren't bias modding. The "we win, vanney good" argument to me is pointless without real data to back it up. I'll give him credit when he does something deserving of it... and I do.

I was not saying anything against your character or intelligence, I was specifically attacking your argument. Anything else is reading into my comment.

I actually agree with a lot of what you write, I have been following what you say, and a lot of it is well-reasoned. If you look at my own posts you will see that I am not firmly pro or against Vanney but react to what I see him doing as he develops. There is a lot of contradictory evidence when you look at the facts.

Vanney has changed in several ways as he has learned over the last couple of years, not just the last few games. He is constantly learning and evolving as a coach, that's been a significant plus for him. The other plus is how well he has brought along the young players. That is why I felt it was unfair to give the credit to Manning.

But ya never do I give Vanney credit for anything.

clearly my opinions have been set all season and haven't evolved and reflected the play on the pitch. I'm just a nonsensical person spewing nonsense and deserving of no more respect of my opinion than sarcastic condescension.

I never said anything like that, that completely misstates my opinion of you completely (I actually respect your opinion more than you think).

My comment actually was not directed specifically at you.

Secondly, my comment in no way was about anyone's intelligence, character, or ability. It was directed at a certain mindset that is common among a lot of supporters (one that Molinaro has criticized as well) that gives Vanney too little credit for what he has accomplished. Maybe he was prodded at points by Manning (and prodding is what a good boss should be doing anyways), but the execution was his own and he deserves credit for that.

[Gazza_55]

First Vanney only won because of Giovinco. Now he only wins because of Manning directing him. Poor guy never gets any credit here.

This.

The development of players like Zavaleta, Chapman, Bloom, Delgado etc, the formations he's used, the tactical changes and the injuries he's had to deal with it should be more than enough to earn him credit.

Maybe it's all Robin Fraser doing

[Oldtimer]

Bradley's comments on Vanney start at 3:40

http://www.torontofc.ca/post/2016/08...?autoplay=true

[Kaz]

My comment actually was not directed specifically at you.

No condescension Kaz (tone of voice is hard to read), I just feel [b]you]/b] haven't given credit where due. I like Molinaro's balance from this tweet :

could have fouled me.. when you specifically stated your commented was directed at me. A statement that was sarcastic and meant to ridicule anyone that doesn't see things your way. There is no way else to read your comments as there is no other substance.

Nor have you ever challenged anything I have put forward.. sarcasm alone is not a valid criticism without nor is saying there is a lot contradictory evidence without providing it.

[Detroit_TFC]

“Yes, yes, I know all the jokes. What else could I have expected at Highbury? But I went to Chelsea and to Tottenham and to Rangers, and saw the same thing: that the natural state of a football fan is bitter disappointment, no matter what the score.”
― Nick Hornby, Fever Pitch

[Oldtimer]

could have fouled me.. when you specifically stated your commented was directed at me.

You are included, but you aren't the only one. I hope that is clear enough? Just a short visit to Facebook will show how Vanney is treated. I'm not targeting specifically you.

sarcasm alone is not a valid criticism without nor is saying there is a lot contradictory evidence without providing it.

I guess you didn't get a chance to listen to the link to Bradley's comments that I posted? He gives full credit to Vanney and says he has been "great." I'd take that as at least a little evidence that Vanney deserves some credit. Now one could argue that Bradley is sucking up to the coach, but Bradley doesn't need to do that to get playing time and he criticizes the league's handling of international dates earlier in the interview. Bradley's always been very straight-forward in what he says both positive and negative.

The problem isn't with the facts, it's with the interpretation of the facts. If bad things are "Vanney's fault," and good things are said to be usually due to other factors, then the analysis is not balanced. That is a criticism of a position, but it is a fair one.

[OgtheDim]

“Yes, yes, I know all the jokes. What else could I have expected at Highbury? But I went to Chelsea and to Tottenham and to Rangers, and saw the same thing: that the natural state of a football fan is bitter disappointment, no matter what the score.”
― Nick Hornby, Fever Pitch

I remind myself of this quotation at least once a game. I find myself not moaning as much about bad plays as I used to.

Life is too damn short to worry about a bad pass by Delgado.

[Detroit_TFC]

I remind myself of this quotation at least once a game. I find myself not moaning as much about bad plays as I used to.

Life is too damn short to worry about a bad pass by Delgado.

I try to remind myself of this basic truth. But the better the team plays, the more frazzled I'm going to be over the little things, I expect.