TFC @ NY, July 6, post-match rant

[bgnewf]

A 5-0 Loss & An Incomplete Spine

http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/20...omplete-spine/

In my customary video blog I take a brief look back at a game I would rather forget, TFC's latest loss on the road, this time in New York. I also comment on the defensive lapses that had led the club to be in the unenviable position of conceding seventeen goals more than they have scored and why the impending arrival of Kouvermans/Frings might all be for naught this season without some significant reinforcements on the back line. I also try to look at the individual quality of the defenders TFC has on the roster and I debate whether the raw stats tell the whole story.

[Nicholas982]

would you support a team named after an energy drink

why not fucking magicJack FC

That is one team in serious need of a re-branding, al la Sporting KC. Perhaps Red Bull can be persuaded to give up ownership of the club and remain as the corporate sponsor, although I seriously doubt it. Just buy this club from 'em and move these guys to an SSS in Queens, FFS. The club would die a swift and brutal death if it had to compete with a revived Cosmos, anyhow. Maybe THAT's the leverage MLS can use against them to pry the club out of their hands?

New York City FC
New York FC
New York United FC

Keep Cosmos as the club's nickname if you want, but please, no more of this NA-style nomenclature, such as New York Cosmos. That sheit just reeks of MLS 0.5 era.

[Blizzard]

Is there any way in the 4-3-3 to play Koevermans and Gordon together?

I hate the idea of Gordon playing limited minutes if healthy. He may not be an elite target man, but he a heady player and understands the game well. He makes good things happen and while it's a strength to have him come off the bench and helps keep Koevermans fresh, I'd like them both playing significantly in key games (by which I mean CCL games).

I think the only way to keep Gordon healthy is by limiting his minutes. I welcome him as a last 20 super sub. I certainly hope that he starts in Houston though. We need somebody like him (or Koevermans) ASAP.

[cochrdoc]

Bgnewf talks about how shitty our fullback line is.We have always given up alot of goals .Marco Velez and Usinov are better players then what is on our present roster and they were not good enough.Our depth players don`t have much of an impact on the game as other teams do.Frei must be getting very frustrated pulling the ball out of the net.Who on our roster are we going to trade to get a quality CB to give us some stability.Eckersly is the only one who has shown his worth.I have never seen a team get scored on by so many corner and free kicks.Our left back seems to caught up field on so many goals.I love it when the reporters say we are making gains and then we go out and get our asses handed to us.If Winter was back home in europe he would have his ass sent out the door.Our 2 DP`s should help the slaughter but our back line problems have never been dealt with.Most players on this roster need to be turned over and unfortunately some of the boys Winter brought in are not good enough.The only teams we have results from are poor sides.WE would have a hard time to compete in the usl pro league.I will still cheer the reds on but it is going to be awhile before we compete

[jloome]

Is there any way in the 4-3-3 to play Koevermans and Gordon together?

I hate the idea of Gordon playing limited minutes if healthy. He may not be an elite target man, but he a heady player and understands the game well. He makes good things happen and while it's a strength to have him come off the bench and helps keep Koevermans fresh, I'd like them both playing significantly in key games (by which I mean CCL games).

Not really. Gordon is a very good distributor for a centre forward but he couldn't be the high man in the triangle mid because you still need him to mark going backwards, and I doubt highly he's good enough to do that.

To me, I think maybe John has it right: maybe a patient 433 can't work in this league due to elevated technical expectations.

With the players we'll have after Frings and Koevermans join, I'd move to a 442 and use both central mids as holders, so that play is directed from the wings, playing both target men at the same time. Those two guys are big and strong and would cause havoc if on the pitch at the same time. Borman's fast and would be a step up from Martina, I think

-------------------Frei----------------------
Eckersley---Attakora---Williams---Yourassowsky

Soolsma-----DeGuzman--Frings---Plata

--------------Gordon----Koevermans---------

To me, tactically, the only way to play with a 433 and our lineup is to move Joao Plata into the hole, play Koevermans at the top. We don't have another hole player, unfortunately, who fits the requirements as well, even if he is too small for that much contact; I'm not sure less space in the middle is an issue, as he creates a lot of his own. Plus, it's hard to mark a hole player out, as he can break up coverage zones and assignments by moving in either direction.

-----------------------Frei-------------------------
---Eck-------Attakora----Williams----Yourass

-----------Deguzman------Frings---------------

----------------------Plata-----------------------

------Soolsma--------------------Borman-------
------------------Koevermans------------------------

[ensco]

But I just don't see any purpose to condemning the guy entirely after half a season when he's playing without half his roster. It's just pointless and unfair.

I have seen enough of Winter's performance as a leader of men (his press conferences, his public statements, his handling of complex player problems, his body language, how his team responds to adversity) to conclude that men will not follow him.

His talent ID skills ain't looking so great, either, but I will admit it's probably early on that one (I am certainly impressed by the return he got for Dero relative to what Dero fetched from DC, but most everything else he's done leaves me cold).

You want to condemn me because I got there in half a season, instead of a full season, it's a free country.

In my opinion, the weight of evidence is on my side.

[rocker]

In my opinion, the weight of evidence is on my side.

of course you can say that when you use half season as your limit on the acquisition of evidence. The rest of the season doesn't exist yet to provide evidence to weigh in the other direction.

[Cashcleaner]

Haven't had a chance to go online over the last day to vent my spleen, and perhaps that's a good thing given the awful spectacle that occurred on Wednesday.

After looking at how things went down last night and in previous games this season and how we've been playing regardless of results; I'm pretty much convinced that Aron Winter is in way over his head and barring a miracle in the second half of this season, should not return for the 2012 season. Furthermore, Tom Anselmi needs to be walked (or dragged) away from this team.

Unfair? Absolutely not. Consider the fact that we haven't just racked up more loses than we should, but also take into account the margins by which we've lost. We've been beaten in games by 3 goals or more 4 times this season and have a total goal differential of -17. The two expansion sides Portland and Vancouver only have GDs of -9 and -8, respectively.

Long story short; we're not just losing, we're losing badly.

So now obviously people are going to say that we can't just drop Winter after one season. You'll note that more often than not, many won't actually give a reason as to why we can't - just that we can't. Personally, I believe stability for the sake of stability gets us no where. I certainly don't like the prospect of seeing someone go through that revolving door at BMO, but the absolute worst thing we can do is stick with a failing plan in this manner.

I was more than prepared to give Winter the two years I thought he needed, but the overall stagnant level of competition we're putting out on the pitch (with the exception of a very few good players) is too great to simply brush off with the tired "rebuilding" line.

I'm not calling for heads and I'm not sharpening the pitchfork, but if this trend continues despite the infusion of Frings and Koevermanns, we simply won't be able to afford to keep Tom and Aron on much longer in their current positions. Who knows, maybe by tomorrow my outlook will change, but I can't shake just how badly we've played some games this season and what sorta chances we have in the second half of 2011. I'm really, really trying hard to remain optimistic, but the numbers and overall level of play so far is not very heartening.

[ExiledRed]

of course you can say that when you use half season as your limit on the acquisition of evidence. The rest of the season doesn't exist yet to provide evidence to weigh in the other direction.

My hero.....

thanks captain!

[swan]

Haven't had a chance to go online over the last day to vent my spleen, and perhaps that's a good thing given the awful spectacle that occurred on Wednesday.

After looking at how things went down last night and in previous games this season and how we've been playing regardless of results; I'm pretty much convinced that Aron Winter is in way over his head and barring a miracle in the second half of this season, should not return for the 2012 season. Furthermore, Tom Anselmi needs to be walked (or dragged) away from this team.

Unfair? Absolutely not. Consider the fact that we haven't just racked up more loses than we should, but also take into account the margins by which we've lost. We've been beaten in games by 3 goals or more 4 times this season and have a total goal differential of -17. The two expansion sides Portland and Vancouver only have GDs of -9 and -8, respectively.

Long story short; we're not just losing, we're losing badly.

So now obviously people are going to say that we can't just drop Winter after one season. You'll note that more often than not, many won't actually give a reason as to why we can't - just that we can't. Personally, I believe stability for the sake of stability gets us no where. I certainly don't like the prospect of seeing someone go through that revolving door at BMO, but the absolute worst thing we can do is stick with a failing plan in this manner.

I was more than prepared to give Winter the two years I thought he needed, but the overall stagnant level of competition we're putting out on the pitch (with the exception of a very few good players) is too great to simply brush off with the tired "rebuilding" line.

I'm not calling for heads and I'm not sharpening the pitchfork, but if this trend continues despite the infusion of Frings and Koevermanns, we simply won't be able to afford to keep Tom and Aron on much longer in their current positions. Who knows, maybe by tomorrow my outlook will change, but I can't shake just how badly we've played some games this season and what sorta chances we have in the second half of 2011. I'm really, really trying hard to remain optimistic, but the numbers and overall level of play so far is not very heartening.

i see what you are saying but replacing mangers every year hasn't worked out either, i don't want a revolving door of players and managers..

yeah we have sucked really really bad this year but if we did sack him we would have to start all over again and suck next year with cleaning house and all that so i guess we are stuck between a rock and a hard place..

i'm not positive but i thought even SAF first year with united sucked balls, not that i think AW is on the same lvl but you never know things could turn around next year.. i hope anyway..

[ag futbol]

Long story short; we're not just losing, we're losing badly.

Exactly. And frankly I'm not even as far as you are with evaluating Winter's skills, all I'm saying is for things to stink this much, something has gone terribly wrong here.

I simply can't accept that these guys were dealt bad cards and we were destined to suck this much. Not making the playoffs? sure. Finishing near the bottom of the league? probably. Getting absolutely trampled at every turn? Absolutely not.

[ExiledRed]

I say let Winter manage his resources and attempt to compensate for poor league showing in the CL.

We get better picks and more allocation if we finish last, and if we focus on the CL I actually think we have a stab at getting beyond the group stages.

If I'll credit Winter for one thing this season, its been to make sure we end up with the NCC and get a stab at CL group stages again. This goal was much more achievable than the playoffs, and had we given it up Winter would be in a dark place right now.

You can definitely see he's trying to manage his resources, and the level of commitment from the players has been higher throughout the NCC (except on the cancelled game, but thats mitigating circumstances)

So theres one thing. I definitely think that Saturdays team plus the DP's and a couple of trades could break out of the group stages and doing that would shift the focus of the season enough for Winter to be able to recover his diminishing credibility.

I gotta agree with Ensco though. I dont see him as a motivator, leader of men or insirational coach, and he's not able to compensate for this by being a wily tactician. Hes been outsmarted, outplayed and he's lost players. It really looks like he underestimated the league and I think there needs to be a shake up in the coaching dynamic. I cant see this guy lasting the course.

[Cashcleaner]

i see what you are saying but replacing mangers every year hasn't worked out either, i don't want a revolving door of players and managers..

yeah we have sucked really really bad this year but if we did sack him we would have to start all over again and suck next year with cleaning house and all that so i guess we are stuck between a rock and a hard place..

i'm not positive but i thought even SAF first year with united sucked balls, not that i think AW is on the same lvl but you never know things could turn around next year.. i hope anyway..

But that's the thing, we don't want a revolving door, but does that mean we should settle with what we have when the results clearly indicate a lack of experience and ability to adapt on the part of the current manager and director? I hate black-and-white arguments such as that, but that's pretty much the point where we are at. Trust me, I hate the thought of going through the whole routine again with a new manager but I hate the thought of another go-nowhere season even more.

And again, I believe it is vital to bring Mr. Anselmi's name into this debate because I think that so much of the "revolving door" can be traced back to his decisions. He brings in the consultants, coaches, and managers; and they in turn bring in the players. Management seems to be the contentious issue here, which is why I'm adamant that he needs to step away from the club. He's the guy at the top and as far as we can see, hasn't been held to the right level of accountability.

Believe me when I say it, but I take issues of employment very seriously, and I think we have to understand that we're talking about peoples livelihoods here, however, everyone and their mom will agree that sports is a results-driven business. Well, we're not getting the results and there is only so much critism we can heap on the individual players before we realise their bosses deserve similar scrutiny.

[brad]

i see what you are saying but replacing mangers every year hasn't worked out either, i don't want a revolving door of players and managers..

yeah we have sucked really really bad this year but if we did sack him we would have to start all over again and suck next year with cleaning house and all that so i guess we are stuck between a rock and a hard place..

i'm not positive but i thought even SAF first year with united sucked balls, not that i think AW is on the same lvl but you never know things could turn around next year.. i hope anyway..

I won't derail this thread by turning it talking much about SAF (he didn't suck balls in the first year, btw).

The one fundamental issue with your comparison between the two that I will point out though is that he arrived at United after transforming his two prior clubs from under achievers to champions.

If Winter had a similar track record, or any track record for that matter, it would be easier to for me to put my faith in him being the right person for the job.

[brad]

But that's the thing, we don't want a revolving door, but does that mean we should settle with what we have when the results clearly indicate a lack of experience and ability to adapt on the part of the current manager and director? I hate black-and-white arguments such as that, but that's pretty much the point where we are at. Trust me, I hate the thought of going through the whole routine again with a new manager but I hate the thought of another go-nowhere season even more.

Leaving the wrong person in place could easily end up being MoJo part two. Think how better of this club would be if we had replaced Mo with someone competent halfway through (or even at the end of) the first season.

[swan]

I won't derail this thread by turning it talking much about SAF (he didn't suck balls in the first year, btw).

The one fundamental issue with your comparison between the two that I will point out though is that he arrived at United after transforming his two prior clubs from under achievers to champions.

If Winter had a similar track record, or any track record for that matter, it would be easier to for me to put my faith in him being the right person for the job.

i don't wanna derail it either that just what i thought i heard one time i must of heard someone else.. thats why i said i wasn't sure.. back on topic now..

[Whoop]

There's no fire from him when he's coaching.

[swan]

But that's the thing, we don't want a revolving door, but does that mean we should settle with what we have when the results clearly indicate a lack of experience and ability to adapt on the part of the current manager and director? I hate black-and-white arguments such as that, but that's pretty much the point where we are at. Trust me, I hate the thought of going through the whole routine again with a new manager but I hate the thought of another go-nowhere season even more.

And again, I believe it is vital to bring Mr. Anselmi's name into this debate because I think that so much of the "revolving door" can be traced back to his decisions. He brings in the consultants, coaches, and managers; and they in turn bring in the players. Management seems to be the contentious issue here, which is why I'm adamant that he needs to step away from the club. He's the guy at the top and as far as we can see, hasn't been held to the right level of accountability.


Believe me when I say it, but I take issues of employment very seriously, and I think we have to understand that we're talking about peoples livelihoods here, however, everyone and their mom will agree that sports is a results-driven business. Well, we're not getting the results and there is only so much critism we can heap on the individual players before we realise their bosses deserve similar scrutiny.

no you are right but if it's with AW or someone else i just want some stability with this team starting over every year gets us nowhere..

[brad]

Something I have been doing from time to time this season is seeing how we measure up against our year one side at the same number of games. Personally, I think it's interesting to see how we measure up against a side assembled and coached by Mo, starring the likes of Lombardo, Braz, Reda.

Full disclaimer, I know there are a host of reasons that this comparison is not entirely meaningful, but I still find it an interesting exercise.

After 20 games:
Year 1

W:5
L:10
D:5
Pts:20
GF:18
GA:32

Year 5:
W:3
L:8
D:9
Pts:18
GF:17
GA:34

All things considered, we are currently around as bad as we were in our first year. We are a bit worse in every category, except we've turned a number of losses into draws.

[bman27]

i think a big question could be would you feel the same way about this season right now if we were not into year 5 of this circus? There was such a turnover of players this year, and with the change of style, it has felt like a Expansion team. I guess the question I'm getting at is do you feel that you would still be this upset with the team right now if it wasn't for the team's history?

[ensco]

i think a big question could be would you feel the same way about this season right now if we were not into year 5 of this circus? There was such a turnover of players this year, and with the change of style, it has felt like a Expansion team. I guess the question I'm getting at is do you feel that you would still be this upset with the team right now if it wasn't for the team's history?

I don't think so. We are really, objectively, a terrible side. As exciting as the NCC was, and I really am glad we got through....let's face it, it was a damned lucky thing, and no real accomplishment.

I just don't see the "building" that others see. I'm dying to feel differently. I put my view forward in full knowledge of how absolutely terrible it would be to make a manager change in the near future.

But there it is. Imho he's not up to it. Now what...? I don't know. I really don't.

[Beach_Red]

i think a big question could be would you feel the same way about this season right now if we were not into year 5 of this circus? There was such a turnover of players this year, and with the change of style, it has felt like a Expansion team. I guess the question I'm getting at is do you feel that you would still be this upset with the team right now if it wasn't for the team's history?

Oh, definitely it being year five is a contributing factor.

But looking ahead I can't help but see a mid-table team at best. MLS teams have 8 international spots and the rest of the roster has to be made up of domestic (Canadian or US for us, they threw us a bone) players. How long is it going to take to put together a roster of mostly Canadian and US players willing to play in MLS who can play this system?

It just seems like we're going to be hearing this line about not having the right players for a long time.

[johntv]

Soccer is a left brain game with right brain flashes.The skill,system,decision making are left brainers while the rest makes it exciting.It basically is a game between left and right brainers.

[Stryker]

All I have to say after the red cow game is that I want Harden tossed into a bottomless pit. Gawd he sucks.

[Pachuco]

i think a big question could be would you feel the same way about this season right now if we were not into year 5 of this circus? There was such a turnover of players this year, and with the change of style, it has felt like a Expansion team. I guess the question I'm getting at is do you feel that you would still be this upset with the team right now if it wasn't for the team's history?

I personally don't see how we could be competitive next season without another major turnover of players next year. I think only a select few are untouchable on this team and half the roster could easily go. Pretty much no different then any other year in my mind.

See I agree that turnover has been our biggest problem. But turnover like this doesn't happen because it's mandatory, turnover has happened because our coaches/GM have made very bad decisions coupled with the typical atrition every team goes through.

Winter hasn't proven to be any different yet. Some of the guys he's acquired will be gone because they aren't good enough. Some of them will be gone because they are on loan. Some of them will leave because they are overpaid DPs. I don't know, I just have a feeling we'll see lots of turnover next year. And I don't think Winter/Mariner have the luxury to get the new signings wrong. At this point if they don't become the core of the team it may be 3 years before we make the playoffs.

[jloome]

I have seen enough of Winter's performance as a leader of men (his press conferences, his public statements, his handling of complex player problems, his body language, how his team responds to adversity) to conclude that men will not follow him.

His talent ID skills ain't looking so great, either, but I will admit it's probably early on that one (I am certainly impressed by the return he got for Dero relative to what Dero fetched from DC, but most everything else he's done leaves me cold).

You want to condemn me because I got there in half a season, instead of a full season, it's a free country.

In my opinion, the weight of evidence is on my side.

OK. Perspective and opinion aren't evidence, but OK.

Look Eugene, you're probably right. My contention was that you're being unfair if you don't consider both the limitations he faced and the time he's been there; but if your perspective of linguistics and body language is that good....well no, that's not evidence either.

They suck so far. I get that. I also get that the only centre back Paul marriner has managed to land since coming here was Dicoy Williams, a guy it was screamingly obvious Winter didn't even want, but took because he was a warm body.

That's what they see this as; a warm-body season, with a CCL run if possible, because they knew getting in would be relatively easy compared to competing in MLS.

And I just disagree that there is no sign in the play, in what the players are doing on the pitch. It's gradual improvement, but it's there. On the weekend, with half (if that) the squad he needs? It holds together for 20 minutes. With a commanding new centre back, Torsten frings, Koevermans and our first team healthy? It might have actually been a competition for 45, or 60. We get rid of some serious dead weight at the end of the season (we have at least eight players making first team money who couldn't start on any team in the league) and maybe it's a competition for a whole game.

I get it. You and Roogsy are both type-a achievers and this is probably driving you nuttier than some of us, becuase it's all unnecessary shit that should've been resolved years ago. But starting over at this point, with a new manager, halfway through a dramatic shift in the actual on-field cohesion of the team, is a bad idea.

It's just too early to say.

I didn't say you were wrong. I said you weren't being particularly fair and stand by it.

[tiberius]

I am now a believer.

I think i am beginning to see the progress everyone has been talking about for weeks. Thank god my eyes have been opened.

#roogsyislatetotheparty

It is nice to see that you have finally seen the light!

[trane]

Not really. Gordon is a very good distributor for a centre forward but he couldn't be the high man in the triangle mid because you still need him to mark going backwards, and I doubt highly he's good enough to do that.

To me, I think maybe John has it right: maybe a patient 433 can't work in this league due to elevated technical expectations.

With the players we'll have after Frings and Koevermans join, I'd move to a 442 and use both central mids as holders, so that play is directed from the wings, playing both target men at the same time. Those two guys are big and strong and would cause havoc if on the pitch at the same time. Borman's fast and would be a step up from Martina, I think

-------------------Frei----------------------
Eckersley---Attakora---Williams---Yourassowsky

Soolsma-----DeGuzman--Frings---Plata

--------------Gordon----Koevermans---------

To me, tactically, the only way to play with a 433 and our lineup is to move Joao Plata into the hole, play Koevermans at the top. We don't have another hole player, unfortunately, who fits the requirements as well, even if he is too small for that much contact; I'm not sure less space in the middle is an issue, as he creates a lot of his own. Plus, it's hard to mark a hole player out, as he can break up coverage zones and assignments by moving in either direction.

-----------------------Frei-------------------------
---Eck-------Attakora----Williams----Yourass

-----------Deguzman------Frings---------------

----------------------Plata-----------------------

------Soolsma--------------------Borman-------
------------------Koevermans------------------------

Since Plata started playing and showed vision and passing ability I had wanted to see what he can do as a ACM . It just does not seem to be in winter's plans, to me it is a natural, at least to try.

[Beach_Red]

And I just disagree that there is no sign in the play, in what the players are doing on the pitch. It's gradual improvement, but it's there. On the weekend, with half (if that) the squad he needs? It holds together for 20 minutes. With a commanding new centre back, Torsten frings, Koevermans and our first team healthy? It might have actually been a competition for 45, or 60. We get rid of some serious dead weight at the end of the season (we have at least eight players making first team money who couldn't start on any team in the league) and maybe it's a competition for a whole game.

I think is the key right here - are you sure that in a league that requires teams to have a majority of American players on the roster these guys couldn't start on any other MLS team? Certainly American players are over-valued in MLS but that's the only reason these guys are here - if they could get more money somewhere else they would. So I see where we could get different overpaid Americans but it's going to be very tough to get better middle-roster players.

Still, you're right, the new DPs and a healthy roster and TFC is at least middle of the table, with a shot at 10th place. Getting past that....

[DangerRed]

All I have to say after the red cow game is that I want Harden tossed into a bottomless pit. Gawd he sucks.

Yep, he certainly does. And the numbers bear it out. Check out this gem I just came across:

TFC goalkeeper Stefan Frei has faced a league-high 107 shots on goal this season.

Whose fault do you think that might be?