I don't disagree that it was closer to AW's system. That being said who knows what the complaints were? Could have been stuff about positional responsibilities within the formation or complaints about the amount of shuffling in the starting lineup.Originally Posted by Canary10
"Dude, you are missing my point. I will not reiterate it for the third time. I am not trying to be an ass but a 4-3-3 is a way to demarcate the basic form of a formation, not a system."
Ok, I see, we're having a difference in language. I don't see system and formation used in the same way. I understand what you're saying.
The major complaint was that they weren't playing it all. That's what Johnson was saying.
Gotta play to his strengths!
Congrats to Winter last night for winning the game. Cause lord knows he got completely douched on for the 8 losses.
Can you please read this between the lines,you seems to be very good at it.Random thoughts on the game and the thread:
Great win. The hustle and heart the boys showed was admirable and we have seen a few fleeting images of that this year. Personnel-wise I don't think we are far off being a decent team. The thought of Montreal advancing sickened me and this is at least one positive we can take from this year, if nothing else.
The game did nothing to convince me Winter is a competent coach, quite the opposite in fact. By all accounts the team meeting was emotional with the players fed up with playing his system. Reading between the lines I think mutiny was in the air, and Winter had no choice but to concede and let the players play how they wanted to.They had a point to prove and it showed. This win is not Winters' doing. My vote would be Frings as player/coach until a suitable replacement is found.
From Arash Madini Twitter
Frings: "Everyone needed to fight for everybody." ... And on Winter: "We have no problem with the coach." #TFC
Ryan Johnson on Aron Winter: "He wants to win really bad... We were unlucky on a lot of them. He has our backs and we have his." #TFC
Ryan Johnson "I've always had confidence in him." ... Ahh, the joys of victory. Apparently all is forgotten
Frings: "Everybody's satisfied." Shoulder is in pain. Kocic said Frings took 3 shots to go. "Was very important for me to play today." #TFC
Frings: "Now everybody knows we can still win if we play like that today." #TFC
Frings: "I told the guys before the game, 'we've spoken too much. We need to show it on the pitch today.'" #TFC
After a quarter to a third of the season at the current pace this is what the final points totals would look like---- if the current points totals were pro-rated out for 34 games. Good news is at the current pace Toronto needs 39 points to make the playoffs not 45 or 46 points. (The bright side of things always)
Team and position--------PTS GAMES PROJECTED POINTS
5 Montreal Impact 11 10 37.4 6 New England 9 9 34 7 Houston Dynamo 8 7 38.9 8 Columbus Crew 8 8 34 9 Philadelphia 7 8 29.8
Last edited by Lumpy; 05-10-2012 at 05:43 PM.
My statement about how I think mutiny was in the air stems from jloomes post regarding the meeting: "Little bird says it was specifically to address players' frustrations, and that they aired out tactical and personnel concerns, and at least outwardly, all came out on the same page."
I doubt they all would have come out on the same page if Winter told the malcontents to stfu and it was his way or the highway. Bottom line is I believe the players' input and the resulting tactics is more deserving of credit than the pre-meeting 0-8 MLS season (aka The Winter Gong Show).
I dont think either BDK or Marsch had any intention of shaking each others hand, just thought it was funny to see Marsch try to shake Winters' when he had to navigate around a large, angry, immovable object
Great game by the lads. Solid effort all around. Great to see the players overcome adversity after going down to 10 man (BS red). If we bring the same kind of intensity game in and game out, there is no reason why we wouldn't be able to compete with the rest of the teams.
As for the post-game scuffle, as some have mentioned already, things got pretty ugly with those UM02 scum. It started with them spitting on us, followed by a fight between a TFC and IMFC fan, a thrown lit flare and several seats being tossed from their section. To top things off, lit cigarettes were also being thrown. Fucking cops thought I was going to spear one of their supporters with my flag even though I was only coming over to see what was happening in the area of the fight so I ended up getting tossed around a bit before they realized that I had no ill intentions. I have no problem with words or a middle finger being exchanged, but spitting, throwing lit flares and tossing chairs on our supporters is going a bit overboard.
Last edited by Code Red; 05-10-2012 at 07:12 PM.
Absolute scum, nothing lower than indiscrimintaely throwing shit at people. Far as i'm concerned Impact fans and UM02 specifically are not welcome at BMO anymore
Nothing like a bit of fan hatred to unite the supporters eh?
ah well.
Consistency is key. If he wins the next 8 games straight, things change. I might even end up wearing a tutu.Congrats to Winter last night for winning the game. Cause lord knows he got completely douched on for the 8 losses.
You know I only posted this for you ExGood win none the less.
Six years in, an 0-0-8 record, no playoffs in the past or on the horizon and there's still people who act like MLS, the league we play in, is below us? Some things never change I guess.
The Club World Cup is a week long, 8 game, 6 club tournament played half way around the world from us and out of season for half the teams participating. It's a fun little diversion that exists to make sponsors happy and give FIFA some direct role in the club game. Maybe one day it'll grow into something more serious - it would do well to reach the level of seriousness the Confederations Cup has achieved! - but no one is rearranging their life because of it. And just participating isn't going to suddenly put TFC on the map globally. Quick, without wiking it, who were all six clubs who participated in the 2010 version? What was the final score of the final?
The CONCACAF Champions League will never be the UEFA Champions League. CONCACAF is a weak confederation mostly made up of very poor countries. Outside of the Mexicans and a few clubs from Central America there are no big scalps to be had. Even then, the success in the competition will not resonate globally because the Mexicans don't have to prove themselves against rigourous competition to win; to do that they go to Copa Libertadores. Ironically, much of the serious competition we face in the tournament and the only long term threat to Mexican dominance comes from other MLS clubs: the very same clubs that you claim playing against doesn't hold much appeal.
TFC will never be a credible club until they start challenging for honours in the league they play in. That's the way it is every where else in the world. No club would ever get away with giving anything less than full commitment to league success: the league makes up the majority of any team's schedule and is where most people watch their team play. It doesn't matter that MLS is an American league and TFC is a Canadian club; MLS is OUR league. From the beginning of the Canadian Championship to the end of the Club World Cup it would take TFC 13 games to be crowned World Champions under the current formats: 4 ACC, 10 CCL, 3 CWC. Notwithstanding that such a run is incredibly improbable and that focusing on that at the expense of a 34 game (plus playoffs) league season is both delusional and deeply insulting to season ticket holders (who paid in advance for a league season) can you actually imagine what it'd be like to lose 34 games in one season? We'd be more famous globally for being the team that "never won" than we could ever achieve with one million Voyageurs Cup wins. We'd be an international laughing stock not just an MLS one.
Enjoy last night. Celebrate it. Laugh at Montreal for 12 more months. But writing off the league we play in as if it's not just as serious a competition as any other domestic league in the world is doing MLS a distinct disservice and the sort of self-loathing crap, in this case masquerading as Canadian nationalism, that confirms for me that there'll always be a group of people for whom TFC can never be good enough.
Last edited by BHTC Mike; 05-10-2012 at 11:27 PM.
^^Nice assessment Mike. Couldn't agree more kiddo.
No supporter ever would want to spend time/energy/$$ to protest the ownership of a club and it's failings.
That is not a lot of fun.
But under the circumstances Toronto now faces, with the same complacent owners of every professional sports club in the city, enough is enough.
If you glance back over the years at club teams around the world where the owners disregard (understatement) for the clubs success, you will see a large number of ongoing protests by it's supporters to right the ship.
Most are successful but it's a long hard road and, once again, not a lot of fun.
I am at a loss as to why this team is in the shape it is in.
I have my theories and I choose not to stoke the fire.
That is someone elses department.
KD
Here is what I observed @ the game Wed. night.
First TFC game @ BMO I have been to in over a year.
I was 9 rows back of the players benches for the 90.
TFC looked far more aggresive off the hop.
What I found interesting was that Winter would rise out of his folding chair every 20-30 seconds and make a muted whistle directed at certain players on the pitch.
On almost every occasion the player(s) either didn't hear him or, on a few occasions within 15-20 yards, were purposely ignoring him.
Winter tried several times to get a players attention and quickly returned to his folded chair, sat down with arms folded.
Declerck was clearly in charge Wed. night.
Now what do you think the players meeting this past week was about?
I think the team is composed and very professional and want a new manager and went about it in the right manner.
The last thing you need in an 0-8 club is for players to start calling out the coach for whatever reasons they have. Only gonna make it worse for everyone.
I think the team just decided to coach themselves Wed. night and it was far better than before.
Winter? Gone in 2 weeks I think.
KD.
Last edited by king dave; 05-11-2012 at 12:49 AM.
Moderator
That's a pretty serious assertion based on some unsuccessful whistling attempts. And if they were trying to get rid of the coach, they wouldn't offer quotes specifically supporting him. They would say nothing, or not address the subject of Winter at all.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes public pressure on a coach can rally his players around him. Perhaps you are right, but Frings is the heart of this team, and he seems to be specifically in Winter's corner. As do the other players who offered comment after the meeting.
Which isn't an argument for keeping him at all, I should note. But evidence that the team has tuned him out is highly conflicting at best.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
I was a reporter for a lot of years and interviewed literally thousands of people, and I can tell you what I think took place, based on repeated statements, body language, strength or weakness of comment etc.
* They had both one-on-one meetings and group with the players.
* The one-on-ones identified some repeating names as under-performers, which is part of why neither Dunfield nor Aceval started.
* They discussed why they were spending so much time in their own end
* The question of the coaches communicating with players came up
* The players suggested pressuring higher up the pitch, saying half-field pressure (which we played in every game except Santos, L.A. and Seattle) is gonna get you slaughtered in a league where you need to make the other team make mistakes. DeKlerk and Winter accepted this.
* THe coaches told the players that whatever happens, they've got their backs.
So, basically, players were frustrated by poor tactical decisions. When asked about the coach, Johnson DID say they had his back, but Kocic (? going on memory here, but it was definitely one of the players) referred to him as a "nice man" and it was not a particularly complimentary tone.
To me, it still sounds like the Gullit situation: a guy who just didn't realize until the edge of the cliff was approaching how involved he had to be. The difference in this case might be that they did the sensible thing and had meetings with the players to work it out. So in the end, Winter and DeKlerk's decision was the right one, and showed important humility. We'll see where it goes.
Yeah, lot of supposition. But that's how I read it.
^Have you ever heard the man speak?
I could speak better English with a golf ball and a brick in my mouth.
I have always held firm that to lead any group to success you must be able to communicate clearly.
I am an assistant manager @ an LCBO and I have always maintained that communication is the key to any success in any given field.
And I have followd this team, albeit, from a distance recently and can assure you that Winter cannot communicate with this team.
Period.
He may have the best footy resume, credentials up the yahoo, knowledge to beat the band but that is BS if you can't communicate with 11 players on a weekly basis.
KD.
Last edited by king dave; 05-11-2012 at 01:20 AM.
Now this is a very intelligent discussion.
Not bad for this time of the morn.
KD.
This video was posted on BigSoccer and some of the posters claimed this was good for MLS because its hardcore support. That is possible the worst logic I've ever heard, I responded with this:
So for the record, you condone violence? Violence means real football? You're an idiot. This has nothing to do with 'hardcore' fans and 100% to do with idiots. If behavior like this picks up, no more away support at TFC/MTL games and the league gets a bad rap for fan violence. THINK people.
I personally know many UM02 supporters, I lived in Montreal for four years and would always check out Impact games. They are great guys, great supporters but idiots will always infiltrate their ranks. If they know whats good for their own groups health, they'll deal with this internally because behavior like this should not be accepted under the guise of 'hardcore' support.
And on a major side note.
I was very displeased with the team not going over to the corner to show their appreciation @ the final whistle.
I waited and waited expecting it to happen and it never did.
Any league any where on this planet. That's a given. Win, lose, draw.
This inherent gesture is what keeps/grows SGs through good/bad times.
Now I realize the team is not in the best of spirits on any game day so far.
But you know?
Fuck off! Throw the supporters some biscuit for showing up and giving more effort for 90 than you fucking twats have.
Sorry but that really fucking iritates the fuck out of me.
KD.
If I had to have been fortunate enough to play in any football league with any support to speak of, I would toss my kit, my shorts and my fucking boots into the supporters section each and evrery fucking game!
But then again, if I had to take a corner in the supporters end and some douch in the first row offered me a beer . . .
Short lived football career I believe.
KD.
Hey, here's a thought.
Winter = gone.
MLSE has a contest.
Winner get's to manage the team for 1 week.
Full-on access.
$25 per applicant.
I figure they could pick up a quick $250,000 in apps. alone.
KD.
Well I guess everyones gone night-night.
Goodnight and I leave you with this.
KD.
Last edited by king dave; 05-11-2012 at 02:11 AM.
Moderator
Yeah, the team should always come over to the supporters area and give their appreciation. Especially after a terrible run like they've been on - they should have the utmost appreciation for the fans who continue to endure it and sing their hearts out.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
Moderator
I think this is a comlpletely plausible series of events, but as you say yourself - that's a LOT of supposition. At any rate, I wouldn't be shocked if at least a few of them don't like him as the manager after this terrible run, but as long as they continue to play with the same lvel of poise and purpose as they did Wednesday, I don't really care either.
And of course, winning will ultimately solve everything.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
Wow! Did you guys read Paul Beirnes' twitter? Absolutely scathing in his ripping of UM02 for throwing chairs and flares from the top of 104.
MLSE exec of the year, REPRESENT!!!
@UM02 Wreckless!!! Sorry guys I don't do spell check. You wouldn't either if you had my accolades.
Last edited by RedRum; 05-11-2012 at 03:07 AM.
LOL. The guy has resorted to shilling tickets on twitter.Wow! Did you guys read Paul Beirnes' twitter? Absolutely scathing in his ripping of UM02 for throwing chairs and flares from the top of 104.
MLSE exec of the year, REPRESENT!!!
@UM02 Wreckless!!! Sorry guys I don't do spell check. You wouldn't either if you had my accolades.
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