USA eliminated from the World Cup

[tfclucha]

Pro Rel is not the issue, at all.

If it was, Scotland would be a powerhouse - every team but Celtic has been relegated lately.

There is absolutely no proven co-relation between pro/rel and MNT success.


What is proven is youth development & coaching is important, and the US had a period prior to 2008 where youth development was really really bad. They have a lost 4 year cohort, now aged 23-27, where hardly anybody got to a decent enough level. They are starting to come out of that (see their U17 success of late).

That and JK was a complete sham when it comes to development of talent at the NT level.


And, as much as people harp on MLS for this stuff, its actually the rise of MLS academies that has led all this down there. Here's hoping that works up here too and that CPL teams recognise the long term investment in academies - I'm not sure they do.


Coach kids properly.

Just like taylor twelmman said, the usmnt IS FULL OF TATTOOED millionaires who play in a league where there is no pressure. they are the stars and they have no responsibility because there is ALWAYS NEXT YEAR. Pro/rel isnt the only problem, but it is a big problem. Why do we have to do soccer differently here? obviously its not working

With pro/rel young players have more to look forward to. a chance to play in the big leagues and to be better than the stars they may look up to. If a team from Scarborough moves up the ladder and gets to the top league im sure that would bode well for the national team seeing as how a scarbrough team would be home grown. players who would otherwise might not get a second look from the national team scouts and coaches.

Does that at all sound bad to you?

[OgtheDim]

Just like taylor twelmman said, the usmnt IS FULL OF TATTOOED millionaires who play in a league where there is no pressure

That was Lalas, and he's an ass, and part of a generation who think the current ones don't work as hard as they did, which is patently false.

Pro Rel, if anything, plays havoc with academies because it sucks up all the money to the top clubs of the top league. See the recent discussion about the huge problems with academies in England.

https://www.theguardian.com/football...cted-academies

As between league movement in a pro/rel atmosphere is completley dependent upon investments by ownership, you end up with an arms race that punts kids out at a young age with nowhere to go. If anything, you get pressure at an even younger age to perform, instead of the bringing kids along and developing technical skills.

[ensco]

This is a subset of the bigger issue. Concacaf get a ridiculous free ride. No way are any of the US, Panama or Honduras better than about 20 European and African teams that aren’t going.

The Concacaf qualification rules, which is I have read linked to Warner’s regime/corruption, needs to change.

That is the elephant in the room, for the US, and for us.

[TheGoodson]

Just like taylor twelmman said, the usmnt IS FULL OF TATTOOED millionaires who play in a league where there is no pressure. they are the stars and they have no responsibility because there is ALWAYS NEXT YEAR. Pro/rel isnt the only problem, but it is a big problem. Why do we have to do soccer differently here? obviously its not working

With pro/rel young players have more to look forward to. a chance to play in the big leagues and to be better than the stars they may look up to. If a team from Scarborough moves up the ladder and gets to the top league im sure that would bode well for the national team seeing as how a scarbrough team would be home grown. players who would otherwise might not get a second look from the national team scouts and coaches.

Does that at all sound bad to you?

I just want to discuss what I have bolded in your comment:

1. In any give league in Europe how many teams are struggling with demotion 5-6 maybe? so that means there are 14-15 teams that just have to worry about there position in the table so where is their pressure? So this concept of fighting for every game only works if you play for really shitty teams. Is that where you want these players to go?

2. Do you really think that a team from insert small suburb/town in Canada or the US will have the facilities to compete in the MLS? Or is playing a 5,000 seat stadium good enough when you compete with teams who pay 1 player more than the teams whole salary? Is there enough fan support to go to these games? This isn't Europe the die hard support of lower teams is not established in North America. Do you really think the TV partners would like it for LA to go division 2 and some team from Toledo gets promoted? The game would never survive or grow with that model at the present time.

3. Explain how this is a good thing for young players? As if these kids are good enough or the potential to be CMNT players they already know about them. Very few players would fall through the cracks...

So all of that being said let's look at the biggest issue with soccer in North America.... That is the concept of pay to play.

This concept is unheard of in Europe or pretty much anywhere else in the world. I went through this system and the clubs/academies make sooo much money off the players and all they care about is winning not developing talent. These teams poach players from each other trying to win a stupid trophy. Which if you look at it is the stupidest thing as if these organizations focused on development in theory their teams would win more due to the talent that they nurtured.

So with the growth of the MLS academy's which at the moment is the best avenue for a player to develop, save a few pay for academies. See the development of the USMNT Under 17's as the effect of MLS academies on the development of talent. Soccer clubs in the GTA are a joke as they block players from either trying out or playing for the club academy. They put their own agenda ($$$$) over the kid's best interest, as they have to win a trophy to get more money. All MLS academies are free for their players and they get significantly better coaching and training.

When the CPSL starts up if they do not mandate academies for all over their clubs, that would not help the development of players in this country and will not give us a chance to develop our own Pulsic etc...

[OgtheDim]

This is a subset of the bigger issue. Concacaf get a ridiculous free ride. No way are any of the US, Panama or Honduras better than about 20 European and African teams that aren’t going.

The Concacaf qualification rules, which is I have read linked to Warner’s regime/corruption, needs to change.

That is the elephant in the room, for the US, and for us.

Rumour has it CONCACAF are moving to a larger group stage and away from the single Hex approach. In essence, the third round would become a double Hex, with two groups of 6. This would make it easier in some ways but also slowly increase the quality and engagement within the competition. Of course, when FIFA goes to a 6 teams qualifying out of CONCACAF for 2026, this will change slightly.

I know its a long way away but 2030 is going to be a beast of a qualifying campaign with no guaranteed teams as hosts. By then, we'll know how good Canada is. Its the current 12 year olds who will be the stars of that team.

[Kaz]

Just like taylor twelmman said, the usmnt IS FULL OF TATTOOED millionaires who play in a league where there is no pressure. they are the stars and they have no responsibility because there is ALWAYS NEXT YEAR. Pro/rel isnt the only problem, but it is a big problem. Why do we have to do soccer differently here? obviously its not working

With pro/rel young players have more to look forward to. a chance to play in the big leagues and to be better than the stars they may look up to. If a team from Scarborough moves up the ladder and gets to the top league im sure that would bode well for the national team seeing as how a scarbrough team would be home grown. players who would otherwise might not get a second look from the national team scouts and coaches.

Does that at all sound bad to you?

OMG


If Pro Reg is a big problem why is the US and Canada still major players in Hockey? England has Pro Reg in Hockey using the same system as they do for Football. Why are they not a power house at this point...because they aren't getting the players or the development from the ground up to identify the talent.

In North America the kids with the body types that excel at Football at an elite level are playing other sports. That may not even be Hockey, Basketball or American/Canadian Football. It maybe Baseball, Running, Tennis. They may never achieve Elite Status because the training to get isn't available as it is with other sports.

In Hockey in North America, Scandinavia and Russia you start young, kids learn the fundamentals and there is a path from bottom to top. In Every major sport in a country for the most part that path is there. It is easier to fall into other paths. Kids with the body types and talent/drive to play are identified and they get better and move to upper tiers. By the time they are 16-17 they are already being scouted. With Soccer a lot of kids aren't really even starting to take soccer serious until they are 13-14 with High School. We still have parents that don't want a score kept. It isn't viewed as a Sport but instead as a game.

Pro Reg is useless and Twellman is an idiot about that, I'm sorry but he is.

For those players there is no consequence. Why? Because the best teams with the best players are at the top of the league in European Football Leagues. There is seldom and major movement in the top tier. The bottom 6 teams might fluctuate but the elite players that have national team players.. there is no worry about regulation. There is not even anything to really play for if you happen to be on a middling team. You are just sort of there.

Look at the Wolfpack D3 (iirc) Rugby team. Bring in the best players they can, train hard and work the arses off and finish top of the league move to D2. Now with the same players they will have a harder time so they will have to bring in new players to replace some of the players last year. Same thing happens. Take a look at the rosters of the Teams at the bottom of the tables and see how many players either stay on (because being in the Premier league is a bonus) or move on to other teams in other leagues at a similar pay. Very Little issue there.

In North America there is a chance of success every year and a chance of failure every year. Not adapting not evolving brings failure Ala the Galaxy. That is the Consequence.

In North America it isn't Pro/Reg soccer snobs need to get this bull crude out of their heads. What is holding back the North American game is WE DON'T TAKE IT SERIOUSLY. Until Soccer Mom's start becoming Soccer Parents and they are pissed their kids aren't learning good dribbling skills at 7 or 8. Or that a coach isn't working on crossing with teens or that practices only last 1 hour twice a week instead of 3 hours 3 times a week. The game isn't going to improve.

Until kids see Soccer as a viable sport to play from Age 7 till 17 and School put effort into as they do with Baseball, Basketball, Hockey and Football we won't improve. I went to high school with guys that were OHL, and AHL.. one even played at the top tier in England. (My high school bullies as it happens both now cops.. fun) My High School soccer Legacy... a PRO Linesmen who I see at TFC games from time to time (by which I mean I notice he is there) Even though I went to high school in the 90s in a heavily Italian populated high school after a World Cup win for Italy and while they game in second in the World Cup. I didn't try out for the Soccer team because (even though I was built for it) I hadn't played since I was in grade 3 when I switched to Baseball because that is what family watched. (I sucked balls at baseball.. truly awful)

I ended up getting into Track instead. I could kick a ball with good accuracy from distance, ran cross country and sprinted a 100m in about 12.5 seconds (not amazing but not shabby for grade 9) if I had grown up in england by everything I have ever heard I would have been pushed into Soccer likely stuck with it. I don't know if I could have gone anywhere but the point is in Canada it isn't seen as a serious sport. Still isn't. I might have been decent at it. Many kids that never play may be decent at it.

We don't need Pro/Reg we need to get kids playing it seriously, stop treating it like a game like red rover (though Kabbadi is semi popular in India) and actually get down to business and start training the kids to play identifying the ones that are good and pushing them to play better.

[Smokecell]

https://youtu.be/_zYLi0jPwFc

Jermaine Jones rant. I'll just leave this here...

[molenshtain]

All this hand-wringing and searching for big answers by people who are supposed to know better is getting nauseating. Mexico were a Graham Zusi stoppage time goal away from not qualifying for the last world cup. Now they're ushering in what many consider a new golden generation - being held back only by the Klinsmann-esque selection and tactics from their current coach.

Gulati will be ushered out next month. The new manager will have a wealth of very talented young players to blend into a squad that's talented in spots. The 2022 world cup will be expanded to 40 something teams and the U.S. will never miss a world cup again. Arena isn't far off when he talked about not much actually being wrong. What was wrong was sticking with Klinsmann for five years and letting him dig a whole that Arena couldn't in the end dig them out of. That's dealt with now. If the new manager can do things like line up a midfield that consists of more than Just Bradley the U.S. will do fine.

[Richard]

https://youtu.be/_zYLi0jPwFc

Jermaine Jones rant. I'll just leave this here...

He makes some good points, especially talking about football IQ as its an important area to develop.

I also like the fact he called out players for taking the easy route, if you have the opportunity you should look to go to Europe and not cash in on MLS.

While it important to have a strong national league, I still think your top and up and coming players shouldn't be in MLS. They need the top level competitiveness and mindset to excel at the world class level.

[OgtheDim]

Nice bit Kaz.

Just one point

We still have parents that don't want a score kept. It isn't viewed as a Sport but instead as a game.

Reason they shouldn't keep score at a young age is by focusing on winning and scoring then the emphasis placed on brute strength, speed and "KICK IT!!!".

We don't develop passing and technique and defending well at all.

Mind you, the whole freaking world has issues developing fullbacks.

[denime]

All this hand-wringing and searching for big answers by people who are supposed to know better is getting nauseating. Mexico were a Graham Zusi stoppage time goal away from not qualifying for the last world cup. Now they're ushering in what many consider a new golden generation - being held back only by the Klinsmann-esque selection and tactics from their current coach.

Gulati will be ushered out next month. The new manager will have a wealth of very talented young players to blend into a squad that's talented in spots. The 2022 world cup will be expanded to 40 something teams and the U.S. will never miss a world cup again. Arena isn't far off when he talked about not much actually being wrong. What was wrong was sticking with Klinsmann for five years and letting him dig a whole that Arena couldn't in the end dig them out of. That's dealt with now. If the new manager can do things like line up a midfield that consists of more than Just Bradley the U.S. will do fine.

Disagree 100% ,and I'm not the only one


WATCH: ESPN FC TV breaks down the USMNT disaster


WATCH: Craig Burley finally weighs in on U.S.

[molenshtain]

Disagree 100% ,and I'm not the only one


WATCH: ESPN FC TV breaks down the USMNT disaster


WATCH: Craig Burley finally weighs in on U.S.

Which parts are you disagreeing with in particular? There are a lot of takes in those two clips ranging from respectable (Hislop and Twellman) to downright idiotic ( Nicol saying there was nothing wrong with how the team lined up and that they were just missing the captain whose going to kick people). Klinsmann broke everything about this team. No identity, no cohesion, non-existent mentality brought to each game. Arena tried and failed to put duct tape over the cracks. I don't think there's any proof that it's more than that.

[Kaz]

Nice bit Kaz.

Just one point



Reason they shouldn't keep score at a young age is by focusing on winning and scoring then the emphasis placed on brute strength, speed and "KICK IT!!!".

We don't develop passing and technique and defending well at all.

Mind you, the whole freaking world has issues developing fullbacks.

Yes but in Ontario they stopped keep score for kids under 12. The kids can keep score in their head. I don't know if they reversed that but this isn't timbits level this a level where they should start developing that desire to win. Without the desire to win you see soccer as a recreational game not a competitive sport to compete at the highest level. I can understand not keeping score at 6 or 7. MLS hopefully is changing that but I have my doubts.

Good coaching, teaching the kids that developing is important, and teaching them how to deal with a loss at a young age is important. Not just for sport but in life. I stopped working with kids in a youth organization because of a parents that demand that their child aways be given special treatment. A child that has never learned to deal with loss and disappointment and at 13 when he started seeing it he started acting out. I know first hand what happens to kids who feel like they have always won because of Parents with the don't keep score mentality... on top of the heliocopter my kid is special parents. You can have one or the other.. in our society we have both. My experience with parents though leaves me a tad biased.

I'm not a sport psychologist maybe that is how the rest of the world does it I don't follow the rest of the world enough to know... and if the rest of the world is developing the players like that then so be it. As long as they are actually learning the skills here. I'm not convinced they are doing that either. I'd take the time to learn to coach or ref or be involved.. but I have 0 interest in dealing with parents from my generation.

[Auzzy]

Watch this for the T&T commentary, amazing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsJNQLYI3RA

[ensco]

^That is great.

For those who haven't seen/heard, the Egyptian TV call of the bedlam in the Egypt-DR Congo game last Sunday is a classic. (This is what it looks like when a serious soccer country qualifies for the first time in a generation)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SZB3wNphfs

[molenshtain]

None of those calls holds a candle to the stuff Ray Hudson comes up with on a weekly basis.

He once described Messi as "like a zombie hunter looking for a Twinkie", which is such a specifically insane reference on so many levels. That game must have been 7-8 years ago back when I had cable but to this day I still think about it about once every week or two. Seriously the most underrated character in football this side of the ocean. Crazy to think he once won an MLS championship as a coach.

[Hamilton_Red]

This is a subset of the bigger issue. Concacaf get a ridiculous free ride. No way are any of the US, Panama or Honduras better than about 20 European and African teams that aren’t going.

The Concacaf qualification rules, which is I have read linked to Warner’s regime/corruption, needs to change.

That is the elephant in the room, for the US, and for us.

Sorry but that is Euro bias nonsense. Only 1 out 4 CONCACAf team didn't make the Knockout stages. We sell ourselves way too short.

Pos	Team v t e	Pld	W	D	L	GF	GA	GD	Pts	Qualification
1	Costa Rica	3	2	1	0	4	1	+3	7	Advance to knockout stage
2	Uruguay	3	2	0	1	4	4	0	6
3	Italy	3	1	0	2	2	3	−1	3
4	England	3	0	1	2	2	4	−2	1

Group G

Pos	Team v t e	Pld	W	D	L	GF	GA	GD	Pts	Qualification
1	Germany	3	2	1	0	7	2	+5	7	Advance to knockout stage
2	United States	3	1	1	1	4	4	0	4
3	Portugal	3	1	1	1	4	7	−3	4
4	Ghana	3	0	1	2	4	6	−2	1

and Group A

Pos	Team v t e	Pld	W	D	L	GF	GA	GD	Pts	Qualification
1	Brazil (H)	3	2	1	0	7	2	+5	7	Advance to knockout stage
2	Mexico	3	2	1	0	4	1	+3	7
3	Croatia	3	1	0	2	6	6	0	3
4	Cameroon	3	0	0	3	1	9	−8	0

[PAOK17]

We've used it (the slow clap) since around 2011, the only thing we've borrowed from Iceland is using a drum to coordinate.

Exactly! When I was in 127 in 2009, the North End Elite would do it every game. And even then it wasn't a new thing, as I had already seen other teams in Europe use it for years before TFC's existence (such as PAOK). The only people who actually believe it to be Icelandic are those who only watch soccer every other June.

[denime]

Sorry but that is Euro bias nonsense. Only 1 out 4 CONCACAf team didn't make the Knockout stages. We sell ourselves way too short.

Pos	Team v t e	Pld	W	D	L	GF	GA	GD	Pts	Qualification
1	Costa Rica	3	2	1	0	4	1	+3	7	Advance to knockout stage
2	Uruguay	3	2	0	1	4	4	0	6
3	Italy	3	1	0	2	2	3	−1	3
4	England	3	0	1	2	2	4	−2	1

Group G

Pos	Team v t e	Pld	W	D	L	GF	GA	GD	Pts	Qualification
1	Germany	3	2	1	0	7	2	+5	7	Advance to knockout stage
2	United States	3	1	1	1	4	4	0	4
3	Portugal	3	1	1	1	4	7	−3	4
4	Ghana	3	0	1	2	4	6	−2	1

and Group A

Pos	Team v t e	Pld	W	D	L	GF	GA	GD	Pts	Qualification
1	Brazil (H)	3	2	1	0	7	2	+5	7	Advance to knockout stage
2	Mexico	3	2	1	0	4	1	+3	7
3	Croatia	3	1	0	2	6	6	0	3
4	Cameroon	3	0	0	3	1	9	−8	0

It's not bias it's the reality,CONCACAF has rigged system to make sure Mexico and USA qualify every time,and we are not selling us short,COCNCRAP Region is light years behind UEFA.

If I'm not mistaken it was announced that CONCACRAP is changing their WCQ formation more HEX.

[Fort York Redcoat]

This thread is where its at.

I really don't care that US under achieved their over achieving past selves. The US should be worried with how much they've invested in their progress but that's not really my concern.

I love that they are changing the route to World Cup in our region. The route hurt one team more than any other in development, folks. That would be us not the US. Our free ride with such a poor ranking hurt our competitiveness.

I'm looking forward to a double hex our any version with more competitive matches for Canada.

[OgtheDim]

Having a Canadian running CONCACAF is certainly helping. And as part of his mandate is to give more hope to the smaller Caribbean countries, that is going to help us as well.

Warner pretty much fixed the system so that the US & Mexico would always qualify and that T&T would likely get to the final round of qualifying. Everybody else he didn't care about as they couldn't line his pockets.

[ensco]

Sorry but that is Euro bias nonsense. Only 1 out 4 CONCACAf team didn't make the Knockout stages. We sell ourselves way too short.

Let's keep going. Iceland are better than England, the Netherlands, Croatia, Turkey and the Czechs, based on the last couple of years.

My personal favourite: New Zealand were the only undefeated team at WC 2010.

These tournaments have a huge element of luck, in terms of what happens at them. They are so short. On the day, sometimes, Crystal Palace beats Chelsea, but people don't start writing stories about how Crystal Palace is the same as Chelsea.

You can cherry pick anything you want, that's why you have to have a time series.

EDIT:
I think people are possibly being a bit harsh on the US. They have gotten out of the group stage 3 of the last 4 times. In 2014 they were in a Group of Death (with Ghana, Portugal and Germany, and finished in the top two)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...FIFA_World_Cup
They are not that far from elite status. Not making it is a pretty big upset.

Mexico have made it out of the group stage 7 straight times. That is actually quite impressive. They clearly deserve to consider themselves, and be considered, an elite program.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico...FIFA_World_Cup

[notthesun]

A statistical look...

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/tutulismyname/status/917796591653834752

[ensco]

^That methodology flatters South American because there are no true minnows there to pull the ELO down.

African qualifying is brutal. I think if they looked at the ELO of the teams that just miss, African qualifying would look as tough as Conmebol. (Same might be true for Europe.)

You have to win your group - no playoffs in Africa. Look at these groups:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018...fication_(CAF)

[Hamilton_Red]

Let's keep going. Iceland are better than England, the Netherlands, Croatia, Turkey and the Czechs, based on the last couple of years.

My personal favourite: New Zealand were the only undefeated team at WC 2010.

These tournaments have a huge element of luck, in terms of what happens at them. They are so short. On the day, sometimes, Crystal Palace beats Chelsea, but people don't start writing stories about how Crystal Palace is the same as Chelsea.

You can cherry pick anything you want, that's why you have to have a time series.

EDIT:
I think people are possibly being a bit harsh on the US. They have gotten out of the group stage 3 of the last 4 times. In 2014 they were in a Group of Death (with Ghana, Portugal and Germany, and finished in the top two)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...FIFA_World_Cup
They are not that far from elite status. Not making it is a pretty big upset.

Mexico have made it out of the group stage 7 straight times. That is actually quite impressive. They clearly deserve to consider themselves, and be considered, an elite program.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico...FIFA_World_Cup

Certainly agree with your Edit: section. Mexico is the best footballing country that hasn't won the World Cup. I'd love to see them win it some year. In some ways it might be a good thing for the US to sit out this World Cup. For one thing it's in Russia and is going to be an absolute shitshow. Imagine Trump on trial for collusion with Putin in the middle of that?

[Richard]

I don't know if I'm out of touch in saying this but where was this thread when Canada got eliminated? Where was all of this discussion then? Of course this was a shock result, however we shouldn't be resigned to accept Canada not making it to a World Cup either.

[ag futbol]

I don't know if I'm out of touch in saying this but where was this thread when Canada got eliminated? Where was all of this discussion then? Of course this was a shock result, however we shouldn't be resigned to accept Canada not making it to a World Cup either.

They’ve been so bad for so long it’s basically treated as an inevitability. Sad but there was little going into this qualifying round suggesting we’d be competitive.

Player development in this country has been extremely awful for about a decade. We’ve been getting comparably worse vs. some other nations in CONCACAF.

Until that gets fixed it’s hard to get excited.

[PizzaEatingYeti]

Pundits talking about:
Does MLS play a role in USMNT struggles?

[PizzaEatingYeti]

I don't know if I'm out of touch in saying this but where was this thread when Canada got eliminated? Where was all of this discussion then? Of course this was a shock result, however we shouldn't be resigned to accept Canada not making it to a World Cup either.

This thread is only here because Bradley and Altidore are 2 of the most defining players of TFC.
If these 2 guys would be not among the best 6-7 TFC players over 2016-17, I am sure there would be no such thread.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I don't know if I'm out of touch in saying this but where was this thread when Canada got eliminated? Where was all of this discussion then? Of course this was a shock result, however we shouldn't be resigned to accept Canada not making it to a World Cup either.

In the Canada section. I start a lot of the threads there. When that convo ends I go to the V's.

This thread isn't just relevant for the American stars we have on our club team but for our league that is designed to be a vehicle for American talent. If Canadian talent improves from MLS they don't care. It's why we need our own league below it for the kids from the academies to go to. Not just get in line with the NCAA.