Not interested in "Vanney out". I think any discussion about Vanney should be solely focused on year end. I also want a combo deal here. Both Bez and Vanney stay, or they both leave.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
I agree with this. It has to be both. They are both at fault here.
Does anyone have confidence that Manning and his staff have the ability to properly do this though. My biggest worry is that he won't know what he wants.
MLSE needs to bring in a full pay staff. Sell Jozy and bring in a staff that can coach at this level. I like that Vanney is flexible but He doesn't have the pieces.
And honestly I'm not sure if that is him or Bez.. I'd be ok with just Bez going and the offseason is spent fixing the defence.. or even just working with the kids to get them up to par.
But I honestly think this is a Bez+Vanney issue. Both need to be replaced.
Two things I will say about what Vanney has done:
1) We have a system that gives us a chance to get something out of every match. Even when at our ugliest, we manage to hang around because of the system in place and for the first time ever, everyone, even bench players, seem to know what they are meant to do. More often than not these bench players or players returning after long breaks (Bloom) are getting the job done and not looking horrible out of place.
2) Connected to number 1: for the first time I recall in our history, we can swap players in and out of the squad, change formations by game or in game, and have the players all get it. That's good preparation on the training ground. I didn't see enough of that last year but maybe the guys who argued against me in the Vanney Deathwatch thread were right. He needed time to get it into the players heads.
I don't remember a time in our history that we could have that many starters out and have a line up filled with rookies and a returning player like Bloom and get something from the match. We'd have been happy with putting up a good fight. This game should have been won in the first half and would have if it wasn't for some dodgy finishing. Says something when the best player on the team and the guy people complained about being all we had last year to win matches can be one of the worst players on the pitch last night and we get a point in a match that was ours for the taking.
I was the biggest anti-Vanney guy on here for his first year and a half on the job and I had zero faith in him this season. I predicted he'd be gone by now. Now there is no reason for him to go. Are there better options available? Maybe but they come with risk and turnover and I don't see the need for us doing that again.
Bez however is a different story. There should be an evaluation thread on him as this upcoming window is key for us. If all he adds is Ricketts then we're screwed and he isn't doing his job. That's a Mo type acquisition. Just grab whatever trash is available and if you can sell said trash as a CMNT player then all the better for the rubes to swallow. Whatever goes down at the end of the season, to me, is on him.
Defence isn't our issue. Its goal scoring.
4th best goals against in the league. 4th worst goals for.
Bez was hired for one reason; the Byzantine MLS salary cap system that would drive most managers insane.
This is in a nut shell my issue.
Last year we had a great offense but we had a few defensive holes.
You can't tell me Beit, Moor and Irwin ate up the same salary as Luke Moore, Robbie Findley, Jackson, both keepers and whatever was freed up with Gomez (as iirc we are still on the hook for some)
Then instead of an attacking wing we brought in.. Wil Johnson... who I like but wasn't needed.
Then Bez and Vanney basically spent the whole off season taking a really strong offensive goal scoring side with some defensive woes and shifted it the entirely opposite direction counting on a single player who now has the world on their shoulders to pick up the slack. That is poor management. We needed to let in 5-10% fewer goals than last year while scoring about the same. Instead we may let in 33% fewer goals and score 33% fewer as well.
In the end we are in the exact same spot we were last year, having a hard time winning games because our goal differential is poor.
The positives, like getting the most out of the depth players is out weighed by the inability to build the team properly. They had to know what the off season moves were going to mean to the offense and it is poor coaching to put all your hopes on one player and a second player that can't score without service (which is well documented by Jozy's Sunderland stint).
Bradley floating can be a difference maker in the attack but he is seldom doing that this season due to him having a defined Defensive role. Morrow and Osorio are expected to be our wingers and Gio who would do well in a floating AM role is placed as a forward.
There is a system but; it is defence first and can't win the league. On top of that it has only gotten worse as the season has gone on.
Last year from May 1st to July 4th (2 months) the team dropped 13 points in 10 games (1.7ppg). This year 18 points in 9 games (1ppg).
- if you think I'm cherry picking I just took May 1st (about the time I decide the issue was real)
Other ways to do it:
- from home opener to July 4th weekend 2015 1.4ppg (9 games) 2016 1.125ppg (8 games)
- 9 games from May 1st 2015 1.8ppg 2016 1ppg
- last 9 games 2015 1.56ppg 2016 1ppg
- last 8 games 2015 1.75ppg 2016 1.125ppg
- last 10 games 2015 1.7ppg 2016 1.2ppg
- first 16 games 2015 1.44ppg 2016 1.25ppg
No matter how you spin it.. we are doing worse this year than last. You can blame injuries etc.. yet the simple fact, injuries or not, is we aren't a threat going forward, we put too much pressure on a single player allowing other teams to just swarm him at which point no one knows what to do.
Our system has other issues too.. Hamilton and Endoh collided as they both went for a ball against Orlando. Endoh has had this issue in the past not being aware of where other players were.. last time it resulted in a goal because Jozy backed off. In this case Hamilton didn't and it cost us a goal. One of them needed to back off and watch for the rebound. It's good to see the kids hungry but they need to be better aware of where other players are.
These are all coaching issues. Yes players know what to do.. but they still can't do it in the final third because the plan is still.. give Gio the ball.. not get the ball to the feet of the player with the best chance to score.. ie the player that doesn't have 4 players closing him down half the game.
Last edited by Kaz; 07-04-2016 at 05:50 AM. Reason: fixed the horrid grammar now it is just really bad instead of nearly unreadable
Couldn't see the Fireworks in the Upper West side
MANNING OUT!!!!!!!
Get rid of the roof! Blocks the views of the fireworks!
This is how I see it. Vanneys strategy was poor after he replaced Nelsen - naive - and last year fragile defensively, giving up a ridiculous number of goals in the first half. But this year he has got his tactics better, used the available players well, and brought the younger players along. He has shown growth in the position, and when he does things that seem weird, like putting Oso wide and Endoh at the tip of the diamond a few games ago, he has a coherent explanation. The big things with the team for me are that they defer to Seba and Seba doesn't pass, which I am not sure that you can blame on Vanney. Anyways, it seems to be changing the last few games, with better movement and Seba using his team mates. The first Montreal game was excellent in this way and may have been a turning point for improved team attacking play.
I am deeply confounded by Vanney, I wanted him out at a point last season, as I thought we were not good enough defensively, and were only good going forward because of our talent. Now at times, we looked better then we ever looked early this year, but now I again have a feeling that he is someone who cannot get results unless he has a certain level of talent, he cannot take mediocare/decent players and organize them and push them into a winning side. If we have decent tallent we will have a decent team with him, if we have crap, the team will be crap. I always hope that a manager has the vision, to truly get the best out of his players tactically and push them to grow as players and as a team. I am not sure Vanney has that. Which leaves me wating more. BUT he has shown growth and he may be able to surprise me even in this aspect. We will see. If we want to be a strong playoff team he needs to be able to move up a notch.
this should be the bez deathwatch thread ... on pace for 40pt season here
Quite simple I would've thought. Fail to make the playoffs he goes. (Orlando is currently tied, which puts us below the red line) In fact if he fails to make it past the wild card game, he goes. Our season has imploded, but to be fair on him our luck with injuries has been horrendous. If we can somehow get everyone fit again over the next month, and get some form going, then perhaps my season goal of conference champions would still be possible, but it's a long shot. However anything short of Conference semi final and Vanney's position should be seriously evaluated
This is what concerns me. I was expecting some number-crunching mastermind the way he was bigged up when he arrived. Instead he gets himself into such a jam that he had to release all our forward depth just to get the numbers to work after signing a player we didn't need (Johnson - who admittedly has been very good).
BTW did we ever get Moore off the books, seeing as he never signed with anyone after being let go?
It's true that talent is the main reason why teams succeed but I don't think tactics, work on the training pitch and man management can be understated. A good coach can make an average group of players into a good team through smart tactics, being a great motivator and continually improving them in training. Look at Bournemouth in the EPL, their manager took the core of their squad from League 1 to the PL and survived comfortably. All that said I don't think Vanney should be fired, he seems like an average MLS Manager and is improving. Plus I'm not sure there's a better replacement right now.
Last edited by AFCB+TFC; 07-08-2016 at 10:36 PM.
Agreed. But he scored an amazing important goal so that apparently means he is everything we needed during the off season.
What you're saying is correct - we had a heap of midfielders and unloaded all of our offence and picked up a DM. Definitely could have used those resources to bolster our creativity.
We needed solidity at the back and that's what we got and it's working. Can't complain there. The offense would be much better if Altidore could manage to stay healthy and if Osorio stepped up and became that creative force we need in the attacking midfield. Yes, he helped out on two goals in Orlando as pointed out endlessly when discussing him but the season is longer than one match. He is basically a veteran now as he's been around long enough to know the league and what he has. Yes, we're relying a lot on rookies for our offense but he isn't one of them and he hasn't stepped up to fill the void. Yet. Not saying he is junk but it'd be nice if he took the role by the horns and made his case to be an everyday quality starter.
This is key, he is improving steadily, he'll be well above average by next year, just needs to work on his people motivating skills, he sounds like a kindergarten teacher, not inspiring motivator. Even leaders like Drogba have said they would die for Jose Mourinho, he makes every player that plays for him realize their true strengths and potential. He makes sheep and boys feel like lions and kings.