Bmo Field Expansion

[king10]

Not from the original problems reported by the Argos when talking about it back in 2012.

Either way it's not going to happen.

And yes buy low sell high..... How long has the Argos been on the market? Lots of buyers for a failing franchise isn't there.

Source?

The Canadian field of play is 150 yards long by 65 yards wide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_American_and_Canadian_football#Playi ng_area

Bmo field is (120 x 75 yards)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMO_Field

The width has never been an issue in construction talks. It's been the length.

I'll take you up on that statement that its never going to happen. If that were the case people on this board wouldn't be up in arms about it happening. There is a REAL possibility of it happening.

[BuSaPuNk]

It was in one of the papers when it was being talked about back in '12.

They were worried about the amount of length and width especially in certain areas.

[king10]

It was in one of the papers when it was being talked about back in '12.

They were worried about the amount of length and width especially in certain areas.

We'll just have to wait and see what transpires. Both our positions are clearly stated. Cheers.

[Auzzy]

<snip>

C shouldn't be an issue either because desso grassmaster is essentially grass and is already used at the top stadiums in europe. It isn't turf

Evidence from Wembley & elsewhere shows that Desso Grassmaster or other hybrid turf does not work well for sharing grounds between soccer & NA football, especially if the latter has regularly scheduled games. I'm sure we will have games where the pitch is atrocious for TFC or for national team games, due to the field getting chewed up by CFL games in rainy/muddy weather. In addition, the hybrid pitch will probably have to be replaced often, likely paid for by my TFC ticket prices (in the long run) if Argos continue to be such a poor draw. Plus the Argos may say "what's the problem with the pitch being bumpy and muddy, it's good enough for us, the soccer guys can pay for the replacement."

I think there's a good chance we will take a huge step backward, and revert to 100% plastic after a couple of seasons of crappy hybrid grass. Yes I know Seattle etc have plastic, but it's awful. One of the best things to happen in Toronto was to switch BMO Field to grass, with lots of lobbying by many TFC fans including myself. It would be a massive disappointment if we go back to plastic.

It has also been shown that it can be hard to wipe the gridiron lines before soccer games. -- even at Wembley.

Argos/CFL missed their chance multiple times. Not just that previous deal at York. If they cared to plan ahead a bit, I bet a deal could have been swung as part of the Pan Am games. A shared venue with a university or other public institution would have made sense for them, or some other Pan-Am related deal. [EDIT but even with Pan Am public funding, of course the Argos would have needed to invest at least a few $ themselves -- which doesn't seem possible for whatever reason.]

I like the Argos. I don't want them to fail. But BMO has been doing very well as a soccer stadium, for a long time (and makes good money for the City BTW, plus tax dollars returned to the province & feds). Argos are VERY late to the show there. It royally pisses me off that not only are they going to screw up a good thing, they (Argos owners, CFL, or anyone who might care enough) can not even find the few million $ needed to specifically accommodate CFL at BMO. (And of course it will be much more expensive to retrofit the stadium for CFL, than if they had been planned in from the beginning -- instead they pissed that chance away as well.)

And BTW the "90% public funding" for BMO is BS especially when you consider all the further millions that MLSE has & is still investing at BMO.

Yes I know that some of these points may be moot if MLSE end up buying the Argos. I think that would be a stupid move -- they really should get get their act together with their existing teams before taking on more. And I'm pissed that MLSE don't seem to be fighting against moving the Argos to BMO one way or another. I think that Leiweke & others are being extremely unrealistic about the negative impacts on TFC & the national teams.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Evidence from Wembley & elsewhere shows that Desso Grassmaster or other hybrid turf does not work well for sharing grounds between soccer & NA football, especially if the latter has regularly scheduled games. I'm sure we will have games where the pitch is atrocious for TFC or for national team games, due to the field getting chewed up by CFL games in rainy/muddy weather. In addition, the hybrid pitch will probably have to be replaced often, likely paid for by my TFC ticket prices (in the long run) if Argos continue to be such a poor draw. Plus the Argos may say "what's the problem with the pitch being bumpy and muddy, it's good enough for us, the soccer guys can pay for the replacement."

I think there's a good chance we will take a huge step backward, and revert to 100% plastic after a couple of seasons of crappy hybrid grass. Yes I know Seattle etc have plastic, but it's awful. One of the best things to happen in Toronto was to switch BMO Field to grass, with lots of lobbying by many TFC fans including myself. It would be a massive disappointment if we go back to plastic.

It has also been shown that it can be hard to wipe the gridiron lines before soccer games. -- even at Wembley.

Argos/CFL missed their chance multiple times. Not just that previous deal at York. If they cared to plan ahead a bit, I bet a deal could have been swung as part of the Pan Am games. A shared venue with a university or other public institution would have made sense for them, or some other Pan-Am related deal.

I like the Argos. I don't want them to fail. But BMO has been doing very well as a soccer stadium, for a long time (and makes good money for the City BTW, plus tax dollars returned to the province & feds). Argos are VERY late to the show there. It royally pisses me off that not only are they going to screw up a good thing, they (Argos owners, CFL, or anyone who might care enough) can not even find the few million $ needed to specifically accommodate CFL at BMO. (And of course it will be much more expensive to retrofit the stadium for CFL, than if they had been planned in from the beginning -- instead they pissed that chance away as well.)

And BTW the "90% public funding" for BMO is BS especially when you consider all the further millions that MLSE has & is still investing at BMO.

Yes I know that some of these points may be moot if MLSE end up buying the Argos. I think that would be a stupid move -- they really should get get their act together with their existing teams before taking on more. And I'm pissed that MLSE don't seem to be fighting against moving the Argos to BMO one way or another. I think that Leiweke & others are being extremely unrealistic about the negative impacts on TFC & the national teams.

"Improve atmosphere" indeed.

Well said. Them banking that the field won't be terrible and enough people not caring will be a deciding factor. It makes it a simple choice for me as well.

[OgtheDim]

C shouldn't be an issue either because desso grassmaster is essentially grass and is already used at the top stadiums in europe. It isn't turf

No field using desso ever has to put up with 9-11 gridiron games on it over 6 months as well as a full football schedule.

Ultimately, that is the biggest concern (beyond lines)

[nfitz]

No field using desso ever has to put up with 9-11 gridiron games on it over 6 months as well as a full football schedule.

No, though Argos are only playing 9 games at Rogers most years recently - 8 this year. With preseason at other locations, such as Varsity.

Several stadiums have full seasons of football and rugby.

There stadiums with TWO football teams and desso. Lincoln Financial Field in Philadelphia had at least 17 gridiron games in 2014, at least one soccer game, along with Lacrosse and concerts. Denver is currently replacing their 14-year old Desso surface with grass; however they've also had 2 NFL teams for the last few years, plus some soccer and other events. And before that it had an NFL team and the Colorado Rapids for 5 years. How did that work out?

[jazzy]

No not really. When comes to "brown" sports, it's field hockey that is popular with South Asian community in Brampton not cricket. Cricket is more popular with South Asian community living in Toronto and perhaps Mississauga.

Brampton is soccer hotbed. Our best soccer players from GTA come from Brampton these days which is reflected on TFC roster (Osorio and Roberts while Henry being former TFC player is from Brampton) Even Jason Bent (highly respect coach who will be coaching TFC II this year) is from Brampton as well.

k I"ll buy that , but a year ago I was working in all the high schools in Mississauga and Brampton and cricket like soccer in football eccentric Toronto was really trying to burst onto the scene with the students scraping by to find equipment and play the game . There are numerous fields and clubs now throughout the west GTA and where last week saw close to 1 Billion people watching the game,(1/6th of the world btw,) btwn Pakistan and India I'd say cricket has a chance , to be huge if not a fast growing sport where Canadians with a cricket background live .It is a fascinating game . .......and to Macksam ?? .....uh? .................................................. ..

[jazzy]

and now we return back to regular programming ,........any more photos.....and will they really remake the south end if like the star suggests have an agreement with the argos by summer . ?? I blame Larry Tannenbaum , he has been with his personal whims always a thorn in the pro teams in this city with his meddling , or should I say personal player/team choices .

[Shakes McQueen]

Allianz Arena in Munich has a Desso Grassmaster pitch, and two full-time soccer tenants - how is their pitch rated?

The proof will be in the pudding, I suppose. If everything we fear comes to pass, and the pitch is all chewed up for TFC home dates - every supporter will have to band together to loudly voice our displeasure.

Hopefully the artificial fibres, and the drainage system, can mitigate a lot of the damage. I don't expect any mud bowls, for example. Of course, the first time the Argos are playing in the snow on our grass, I'm going to be biting my nails. I also can't imagine being uncovered at all in such weather, will be good for the pitch?

Bah. Hopefully these talks fall apart.

[Waggy]

Source?

The Canadian field of play is 150 yards long by 65 yards wide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_American_and_Canadian_football#Playi ng_area

Bmo field is (120 x 75 yards)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMO_Field

The width has never been an issue in construction talks. It's been the length.

I'll take you up on that statement that its never going to happen. If that were the case people on this board wouldn't be up in arms about it happening. There is a REAL possibility of it happening.

While you're technically right about the size of the field- a football field needs to have about 10 yards of space on each sideline for the teams to stand/medical staff/water boys/benches/tv people and space for players to safely get out of bounds without running smack into a wall (like they used to at Ivor Wynne). So a CFL stadium would need about 80 yards of width at an absolute minimum. BMO is too narrow

[Ajax TFC]

I wish the Argos would just get their own stadium. It would be best for both parties. It's unfortunate that the Argos ownership is only willing to do the bare minimum to keep the team going.

[kshep]

Will this also mean an end to the digital ad boards? Or are they removable?

[Yohan]

can't wait to see all the Argos blue all over BMO Field

[Richard]

can't wait to see all the Argos blue all over BMO Field

I don't think its going to sink in for a lot o people until that point, just the thought of blue and white disease migrating to our home is saddening.

I've ha enough of Blue lol.

[kshep]

Exactly, Montreal will come rolling in and think there playing a home match.

The argos at BMO, will ruin TFC as you will see a mass exodus after one year of watching our particular brand of soccer made worse as we watch the ball bobble and bounce around on a shitty pitch, grass master or not. (Which I did a purchasing project on when i was doing my final to recieve my SCMA designation, grass master is generally about 2 to 3 times the cost per sq foot than any option in existance.)

God forbid we're in the playoffs and the ball skips the keepers foot because of shitty Argo torn up turf on a pass back and that eliminates TFC from the post season, you might just see a riot take place.

On top of that where are TFC and the argos going to play for a season? while the new pitch takes root, grass master won't do any good unless the grass has firmly taken root. Other wise it's just going to get torn to shit and be full of barren areas.

[Blizzard]

No, though Argos are only playing 9 games at Rogers most years recently - 8 this year. With preseason at other locations, such as Varsity.

Several stadiums have full seasons of football and rugby.

There stadiums with TWO football teams and desso. Lincoln Financial Field in Philadelphia had at least 17 gridiron games in 2014, at least one soccer game, along with Lacrosse and concerts. Denver is currently replacing their 14-year old Desso surface with grass; however they've also had 2 NFL teams for the last few years, plus some soccer and other events. And before that it had an NFL team and the Colorado Rapids for 5 years. How did that work out?

CFL is an 18 game season Nick so 9 plus pre-season (wherever that may be) and play-offs (whatever they are).

[king10]

While you're technically right about the size of the field- a football field needs to have about 10 yards of space on each sideline for the teams to stand/medical staff/water boys/benches/tv people and space for players to safely get out of bounds without running smack into a wall (like they used to at Ivor Wynne). So a CFL stadium would need about 80 yards of width at an absolute minimum. BMO is too narrow

There is absolutely NO way BMO is too narrow. BMO's soccer pitch is already 75 yards wide and still has at least 5 yards on either side of that. That leaves at LEAST 85 yards width. More than enough and more than your 80 yard minimum.

Also have a look at that picture of McMahon stadium, its narrower than BMO already.

[Blizzard]

While you're technically right about the size of the field- a football field needs to have about 10 yards of space on each sideline for the teams to stand/medical staff/water boys/benches/tv people and space for players to safely get out of bounds without running smack into a wall (like they used to at Ivor Wynne). So a CFL stadium would need about 80 yards of width at an absolute minimum. BMO is too narrow

They would likely do what used to be done at Ivor Wynne in Hamilton where both teams share the same sideline.

[king10]

Exactly, Montreal will come rolling in and think there playing a home match.

The argos at BMO, will ruin TFC as you will see a mass exodus after one year of watching our particular brand of soccer made worse as we watch the ball bobble and bounce around on a shitty pitch, grass master or not. (Which I did a purchasing project on when i was doing my final to recieve my SCMA designation, grass master is generally about 2 to 3 times the cost per sq foot than any option in existance.)

God forbid we're in the playoffs and the ball skips the keepers foot because of shitty Argo torn up turf on a pass back and that eliminates TFC from the post season, you might just see a riot take place.

On top of that where are TFC and the argos going to play for a season? while the new pitch takes root, grass master won't do any good unless the grass has firmly taken root. Other wise it's just going to get torn to shit and be full of barren areas.

Grassmaster is often installed in a matter of weeks it wouldn't take a season. Its often even relaid twice a year. Also TFC ripped out an entire Plastic pitch, installed drainage and heating. It didn't affect the season. Installing dessograssmaster isn't going to jeopardize a season.

[king10]

They would likely do what used to be done at Ivor Wynne in Hamilton where both teams share the same sideline.

Actually Hamilton even does that at THF. A lot of other CFL teams do that because it allows for the opposite side to be sold as premium seating at high tables.

[Auzzy]

Yeah I don't think the width is the problem. You always can see the big ugly gridiron sidelines inside of the soccer touchline at places like Gillette Stadium. Width wasn't mentioned as an issue in any of the recent BMO documents & discussions.

Bigger problem could be hordes of linebackers milling about in that area, i.e., inside of the soccer touchlines, in their cleats, on a rainy or snowy day...

[Blizzard]

No trust me. Ground sharing with Hamilton is ridiculous. Im from Hamilton nobody would go see an Argos game. And nobody from Toronto would travel to Hamilton to see an Argos games.

Its ridiculous. Hamilton is no Toronto.

Yes, it is a ridiculous idea and absolutely impossible.

I feel that the best option would be putting money into the new York Track and Field facility turning into a 25k seat stadium. Yes, I know the track hurts the experience but hey, people go to Commonwealth in Edmonton in great numbers.

[king10]

Yeah I don't think the width is the problem. You always can see the big ugly gridiron sidelines inside of the soccer touchline at places like Gillette Stadium. Width wasn't mentioned as in issue in any of the recent BMO documents & discussions.

Bigger problem could be hordes of linebackers milling about in that area, i.e., inside of the soccer touchlines, in their cleats, on a rainy or snowy day...

That would be a problem, but there are options available to prevent damage. I've seen NFL and College teams lay down a protective surface to protect the grass.

[Blizzard]

Yeah I don't think the width is the problem. You always can see the big ugly gridiron sidelines inside of the soccer touchline at places like Gillette Stadium. Width wasn't mentioned as in issue in any of the recent BMO documents & discussions.

Bigger problem could be hordes of linebackers milling about in that area, i.e., inside of the soccer touchlines, in their cleats, on a rainy or snowy day...

True but keep in mind that the NFL field is only 53.33 yards wide vs the CFL's 65 yards so it won't be quite as bad at BMO compared to one of those USA stadiums ........ but it still objectionable.

[Auzzy]

Grassmaster is often installed in a matter of weeks it wouldn't take a season. Its often even relaid twice a year. Also TFC ripped out an entire Plastic pitch, installed drainage and heating. It didn't affect the season. Installing dessograssmaster isn't going to jeopardize a season.

Trying to re-install some of the Grassmaster this summer at Wembley during their break was mentioned as one of the reasons for the poor field conditions for the English national team matches, after two (2) NFL matches at the venue. Winter conditions are often very bad in Toronto (like this year & last), which makes it hard for grass to root properly & grow.

The new grass was in pretty rough shape the first season after it was laid at BMO Field, with lots of chunks coming up especially early in the season; the same again after new grass was laid after they put in a better topsoil mix.

All this is potentially doable, but there are many risks involved. Saying it's all easy & no problem is not accurate.

[Blizzard]

Grassmaster is often installed in a matter of weeks it wouldn't take a season. Its often even relaid twice a year. Also TFC ripped out an entire Plastic pitch, installed drainage and heating. It didn't affect the season. Installing dessograssmaster isn't going to jeopardize a season.

Yes, Grassmaster is only the injection of artificial fibres into the existing surface. The standard installation is 2% fibres, 4 fibres per every two square cm section of grass although I do believe that it has been mentioned that the 2% could be increased. That might be inevitable.

Video of installation at Wembley: http://youtu.be/ETrfhSVHOtY

[OgtheDim]

FWIW
Kurtis Larson ‏@KurtLarSUN 3h3 hours ago .@prizby MLSE officials remain adamant to me no field turf will be coming to BMO, with one saying "it would be hard to attract players".


Somebody there seems to understand the issue. (That and its kinda hard to play money spinning friendlies on turf)

Argos don't make as much money as TFC does and will likely be a tenant (at least at first). The potential income from TFC is WAY higher then the Argos, even if MLSE owns the team.

Although its probably politically impossible to keep the Argos out, MLSE would be foolish to kill off the better money maker by putting in turf. E.g. The revenue for the friendly with Spurs was basically TFC and Spurs split (somehow). And the expenses for friendlies are low. But, are Spurs going to come play on a plastic pitch? Nope.

Is Real Madrid going to play on turf? Barcelona? Man U? No.

Are any of the top players in Europe going to want to play here on turf?

No.


So are MLSE going to put in turf for a money losing enterprise who's main income stream comes from an expense line of one of MLSE's owners own divisions?

No.

[Auzzy]

True but keep in mind that the NFL field is only 53.33 yards wide vs the CFL's 65 yards so it won't be quite as bad at BMO compared to one of those USA stadiums ........ but it still objectionable.

Wow I didn't realize there was such a difference between the NFL & CFL width, I only knew the details of the length. Perhaps the boards and field side tables would have to be made removable to get the necessary width.

[king10]

Wow I didn't realize there was such a difference between the NFL & CFL width, I only knew the details of the length. Perhaps the boards and field side tables would have to be made removable to get the necessary width.

The boards are removable, and of course so are the tables. And the Soccer field is already wider than a CFL field by almost 10 yards. NFL- 53 yards, CFL= 65 yards, TFC= 75 yards So you wouldnt need that much more space, especially if teams are on the same side like at THF and other stadiums in the CFL. The benches would essentially be where the Soccer benches are but with 10 more yards on the sideline because the CFL field isn't as wide.