Yes... They will finanlly get it
No.... They will screw this up royally
hmmm... not sure? how much money will they make from this?
Yes. Amount varies depending on the event and revenue type. In some cases, money goes to "stadium" in others it comes off concessions and ticket sales.Originally Posted by Ajax TFC
I don't see a competing stadium as likely though it goes without saying that MLSE would most likely prefer not to have a competitor.
Many have asked why not build their own (myself included). The City's 20k stadium would still be standing if they did.
What good would a competing stadium be, whatever happened there would never be on TV.
Something I don't understand is, if the new tier that they are building will add 8,400 seats and will increase capacity to 30,000 and if there is a phase 3 which would make the stadium expandible to 40,000, then where is that extra 10,000 coming from? Would that phase 3 mean building new stands at both the north and south ends? Even if it does, I doubt you could add 10,000 to both ends...
Fail to prepare, prepare to fail.
Roy Keane
Phase 3 isn't actually adding seats - it's putting the infrastructure in place to allow an additional 10,000 seats - that would be the infrastructure for the temporary seating - foundations etc. As well as reworking the north and south stands to allow for retractable seating and the change rooms for the CFL teams
From the city documents
I'm not happy about the prospects of ground sharing with the Argos either, but hopefully, the damage to the surface can be mitigated by investing in the previously referenced hybrid playing surface and astute planning with respect to the schedule.
Well if the Argos were there it would be. I think the idea isn't at all likely though.
I think the pics make it even more apparent the Argos are moving in. Lets face it, how many times in the last couple seasons has BMO been jammed and any additional seats neccessary?
Sure they say sold out, but the north end, and the upper reaches of the 200s rarely seem full, let alone the premium seats mid-field.
This new level looks huge. Those seats are going to be a mile away from the field.
The east side 200 seats look as far away as the 200 seats on the West side.
All this chatter about 'competing' stadiums has me a bit confused.
Competing for what, exactly?
It's not like there's scores of summer concerts happening at stadiums. We have the Molson Amphitheatre and Echo Beach handling a great many outdoor shows. Some crafty entrepreneurs have created a nifty weekend event at Fort York, but that's a one-off weekend, not a sustained series of events. The Air Canada Centre hosts a great many more events. BMO Field has hosted a few rugby games, but that's largely nickel and dime stuff.
So what's the worry for MLSE if the Argos were to eventually end up in their own home, something that would make abundant sense for both teams?
What they should be concerned about is maximizing their return from their core product - soccer. At first glance, looking at TFC's regular season schedule, it doesn't seem to difficult to work ten CFL dates into the July-Aug-Sept-Oct time frame.
But we have two Canadian Championship games in mid-to-late May. Win that and we now have three group stage CCL games to work into mid-week slots in August and September. MLS doesn't control that schedule, so we could easily have football played on Sunday and a vital Champions League game the following Tuesday and then further play on Saturday.
We also have to imagine that MLSE's corporate hubris will be boosted by the finished product once the roof goes on. With a soccer capacity north of 30,000, you just know they'll be looking to host one or two of the annual summer tournament games played by visiting European clubs, like this past summer's International Champions series with ManU, Milan, Chelsea, Real Madrid, etc. Would it shock anyone to see MLSE roll out the special event seating layout to grow capacity to 40,000+ ? There's big money to be made from these dates, far more than a competing Argo game. There's also the likelihood of TFC organizing their own friendlies, like with Spurs this summer, or for BMO Field to host other international friendlies. Again, the pitch is going to get hammered as mid-week games get squeezed in.
At some point, it stands to reason that the CSA might like to work in a few games for it's national men's and women's teams. It is, after all, the National Soccer Stadium and this is the country's biggest market. I don't know if MLSE make anything from these games, but they will put further stress on the pitch and we face the likelihood of our national teams playing vital games on a dog's dinner of a pitch.
All of this will come to a head in the fall as CFL football chews up the pitch even more just as playoff season approaches. And if the Argos host a playoff game, it will get even worse. All we need is a cold, wet fall to make an utter mess of the pitch and ruin the quality of any soccer games played in late season or playoffs.
It's been a barren eight years for TFC fans. You'd think after the fiasco of this past season that MLSE would be doing everything in their power to ensure that once the stadium begins to deliver additional resources from expanded capacity that not only making the playoffs would be a priority, but actually winning playoff games would be equally important. The money they'd generate from winning an MLS title would dwarf an Argos lease.
But at this point, priorities seem to indicate MSLE just want to run BMO Field the same way they run the Air Canada Centre. That sharing thing isn't doing much for the quality of Leafs hockey and it won't work for soccer. But they'll happily take our money until it becomes apparent. If that wasn't so, wouldn't someone have stood up by now to say soccer is the priority, we've got nothing to worry about? No, they haven't. All we've got is Tim Leiweke's bombast and bullroar that everything is going to be fine.
At least he won't be around to play foreman in this new Factory of Sadness.
Last edited by greatwhitenorf; 12-11-2014 at 04:14 AM.
For the 2004 Grey Cup, Ottawa was able to add 20,000+ seats in the endzones (total of like 53,000 seats), Hamilton plans a similar number to bring their Grey Cup capacity to 40,000. With design provisions, adding 10,000 will be a piece of cake.
The thing I'm questioning is if the roof over the south end actually makes it to construction. The height of it makes it very limiting to the amount of temps you can add.
Last edited by Mulder; 12-11-2014 at 09:23 AM.
The difference at BMO is - there's existing seats in the north and south end.
Frank Clair in 2004 didn't have anything there and THF doesn't have seating in the ends either - they have those party patios
It also doesn't help that the expansion wasn't fulled designed with modern techniques, open concourses is one, which is great. But newer designs usually taper off the top corner sections because no one really wants to sit there ( as done with Ottawa, Regina)
It was probably done to be symmetrical with west side though
No difference than what they did last season in Regina. Where they put temporary seating behind the more permanent temporary seating.
This is why they are building a second level concourse in the south endzone and moving scoreboards to the corners. Concourse will be-able to support the weight of extra people with the rest extending behind it.
I believe in Calgary in 2009 part of the Grey cup expanded seating was supported on the building in the north endzone.
It's true, if someone else wanted to spend the money to build a stadium MLSE wouldn't care at all - as long as they continued to get government money when they need it (there might be a little competition for that money but no one is better placed politically than MLSE).
But soccer isn't their core business. It's something they took a flyer on because a great opportunity opened up for them. And it turns out they aren't very good at it. And, they're happy with a reasonable return instead of going after the most (which would require being the best).
MLSE's core product is money - whether it comes from hockey or basketball or condos doesn't really matter.
From outside the stadium, the new deck seemed moderately steep. But you're correct in saying it's a huge addition.
The proper question is how many "Winter Classic's" & outdoor Leafs games does MLSE have to hold to make back money on it's investment? The MLSE sure knows that number, and I'm betting it's less than 10.
1. To just have the respect of the league for a team that depends so much on history and heritage.
2 would make it worthwhile I'm sure.
3 they'll try it but by then Toronto be like
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
They also don't just make the money off ticket sales for the winter classic. You also have to factor in the fact that they'll merchandize it to death. Winter classic jerseys, toques, scarves, etc.
I pulled those out of your thoughtful response as I think they are worth mentioning.
I don't think they see soccer as their core product. Tom A was given it to "learn on the job." Many many examples of them not treating this as a "core" product but probably the most telling is that the one guy that did seem to want to invest, Tim L, has found himself at odds with the Board and on his way out.
As to the pitch, yes. I agree. It will be a challenge. Which is why I think that over a 2-3 year span they may try hybrid grass and ultimately decide that it isn't worth it. Fans tired of a bad pitch may simply see turf as a solution to the problem… forgetting it was created in the first place. By then, maybe the Argos are drawing 30k like they used to and turf isn't a problem for CFL football so their decision to move to turf will only be a problem for us.
You conclusion is spot on as far as I am concerned. So I'll quote it:
But at this point, priorities seem to indicate MSLE just want to run BMO Field the same way they run the Air Canada Centre. That sharing thing isn't doing much for the quality of Leafs hockey and it won't work for soccer. But they'll happily take our money until it becomes apparent. If that wasn't so, wouldn't someone have stood up by now to say soccer is the priority, we've got nothing to worry about? No, they haven't. All we've got is Tim Leiweke's bombast and bullroar that everything is going to be fine.
At least he won't be around to play foreman in this new Factory of Sadness.
They haven't done that since the early 90's. They have a significant task ahead of them to get people interested in a 9-10 game season ticket package.
They averaged over 30,000 in 2007, 2005, and nearly in 2006. My god they use to get 35,000 at the dawn of the 90s.
The Argos main problem for attracting fans is playing in that soulless cavern once called the skydome. It's just not a fun place to watch football. I, for one, love the CFL, but I have no desire to go watch an Argos game at the dome. I would rather go watch a game in Hamilton except that I'm not a TiCats fan.
Papered.........very very heavily.
Or how about you could just admit you were exaggerating?
Meh...its the internet. I stand by what I said based on the games I went to at the time. Figures did not match reality. If others want to disagree, as I said, its the internet.
Yes, it will be tough for them and this is where things usually break down in Toronto (and Canada). We don't have a history of much marketing, we're used to regulated monopolies (not many markets in the world would put up with only one NHL team in a market this big).
But now that the Bills in Toronto is over and the Argos are back to being the only game in town a good stadium could make a big difference. Twenty years ago who would have thought that university football would be big in Quebec? Anything's possible, but that doesn't mean it's easy, it's still going to take some work.
conservatively, I bet they can squeeze and extra $5M in ticket revenue, but got to remember their concession revenue goes down from 100% of concessions to 25%. so even if they play 3 a year, it'll only take 8 years to pay for the sucker
MLSE plan to stage outdoor games annually. They'll have at least one, possibly two regular season games. They've got so many teams they can claim a rivalry with - Montreal, Buffalo, Ottawa, Detroit, the other Canadian clubs - that it's a no brainer. They'll shift boatloads of merchandise.
Plus, they'll tie in a whole week's worth of activities around the occasion - alumni games, Marlies games, even OHL or university games. Even minor hockey (GTHL) is being considered. A range of commercial and promotional endeavours are being planned and it's viewed as a way to both satisfy hard-core fans and introduce Canadian newcomers to the sport. The Direct Energy Centre will be taken over with displays, retail, concessions and interactive events. The Hall of Fame will bring its mobile displays.
In many ways, not having a massive, NFL-sized stadium works. The smaller capacity at BMO Field will make for a more intimate setting and tickets will be in high demand. This is one of the smartest things MLSE can do and the city loves everything it represents.
This is why they're willing to risk their soccer operation!
However, NHL isn't going to allow Leafs host Winter Classic every year. There's a high demand for Winter Classic event from NHL teams that NHL is trying to be fair and make sure every team gets a chance to host it while not to over do it to a point that people eventually get tired of it.
Last edited by TFC07; 12-13-2014 at 02:49 PM.
i think we're going to see a different relationship between the Leafs and the league - the Leafs are the biggest market and most profitable and they've never acted like it. But now with Bogers in charge it will probably be different. The Leafs will finally start making demands of the league and not worrying about what the league will "let" them do.
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