Bmo Field Expansion

[cmonyoureds]

Because he wants to do multiple Leaf games at BMO every year, and he wants to charge top dollar. The weakness in the Winter Classic is the terrible sightlines. Also, he would want to include some games during the TFC/Argo season (eg home opener), and temporary stands aren't practical for that, and don't feel like something people will pay up for.

There would be millions a year in doing that. Just my opinion.

I think I posted this before, but you're absolutely right about the winter classic stuff. Right now, if Ontario gets one, it goes down the street to the new digs in Hamilton. I can see Lieweke thinking "over my dead body". It's outdoors, and it has the capacity.

I also wonder if some of this years relentless ticket drive, and repeated calls to previous ST/package holders, (myself included) was an attempt to gauge how close they could come to filling 30k. They wouldn't get close on a regular basis right now, but if even 5-7k said they were thinking of coming back, it would sure make adding seats viable, wouldn't it?

[Beach_Red]

You really don't think there is any possibility that Leiweke wants to see this done because he wants Toronto FC to be the biggest club in North America, with some global presence in the biggest sport in the world, and playing in a Meccano set isn't part of that vision? Not asking to be an ass, I'm curious your opinion. I'm not sure that's not his reasoning, and things like hockey games are just part of the ride to make it a better sell to those who don't understand soccer is where you become a global brand, not hockey or North American football.

TFC can get as big as MLS - will that make it a global brand? A few years ago I would have said that MLS would just keep growing and growing but now I'm not so sure. Does it look like it will overtake any of the other NA sports anytime soon?

Sure, soccer is the biggest sport in the world but MLS is an American league and do Americans care enough about the rest of the world?

[pdogg]

ensco and cmonyoureds;

I still don't think this is as big a deal for the outdoor games. One game, maybe, but temp seats can do that for them. As I mentioned before, the NHL dictates who gets to do outdoor games, and they've tried to find the right balance. They did 6 this year and reports are they will be cutting that back down to 4 next year. Given that 2/3 of the teams are in a climate that might be able to host it (LA was VERY ambitious and I didn't include them in the number), I can't see them getting one every year or even every other year. They'll get 2016 or 2017 or whichever one it is that they want for the 100 year celebration.

[Areathrasher]

I really can’t see them having multiple outdoor games every year at BMO for a couple of reasons.

1. NHL mandates who gets them. You have to lobby the BOG and play nice to get your chance. Playing as the road team in one guarantees you will get one at a future date. Leafs will get the 2018 one in return for being the road team in this year’s one. Leafs getting multiple games a year will cause outrage across the NHL.
2. With regards to doing it for profit. Yea MLSE will make money off it but it will be a part of HRR (Remember that from the lockout?) The more Leafs related revenue MLSE generates the more they will have to throw into the revenue sharing pot.
3. The glut of games this year was to counteract the loss of revenues from the lockout season. Daly and Bettman have already stated they will scale it back in the coming years to sustain interest in them.
4. Washington, Minnesota, Colorado, Columbus, San Jose, Montreal, Ottawa and Florida are all candidates for future outdoor games.

You are going to have a situation where there are 2-4 outdoor games a year and they will rotate between cities. No team in the NHL is going to be able to host multiple games every year.
NBC will dictate what markets get the Winter Classic to make sure ratings are high and the Stadium Series games will be doled out to teams that have played nice over the previous years.

[Pookie]

I think I posted this before, but you're absolutely right about the winter classic stuff. Right now, if Ontario gets one, it goes down the street to the new digs in Hamilton. I can see Lieweke thinking "over my dead body". It's outdoors, and it has the capacity.

I also wonder if some of this years relentless ticket drive, and repeated calls to previous ST/package holders, (myself included) was an attempt to gauge how close they could come to filling 30k. They wouldn't get close on a regular basis right now, but if even 5-7k said they were thinking of coming back, it would sure make adding seats viable, wouldn't it?

TL was in LA. He knows that even Beckham couldn't get the Galaxy sold out or near 30,000.

To me the extra seats are a red herring. If the end game is outdoor games and Grey Cups, TFC attendance really doesn't matter. They need seats to be able to get those games.

[TFC07]

TL was in LA. He knows that even Beckham couldn't get the Galaxy sold out or near 30,000.

To me the extra seats are a red herring. If the end game is outdoor games and Grey Cups, TFC attendance really doesn't matter. They need seats to be able to get those games.

But Toronto isn't L.A.

It's a different city with different demographic.

If TL believes TFC can get 30K people to their games, then so be it. As a fan, I support higher capacity BMO field simply because MLSE wouldn't jack up ticket prices like they would with smaller BMO field.

EDIT: TL already made it clear that Toronto isn't L.A. in the past. He used media coverage both markets as proof that TFC will be bigger in Toronto than LAG would be in L.A.

Yet Leiweke does not shy away from the “superclub” notion. “I will let everyone tag us for what they think we are,” he begins when describing his ultimate vision. “In New York, the Red Bulls are still going through the process of defining themselves against the Yankees, Jets, Giants, Knicks and Rangers. No disrespect to them because their stadium is a very gutsy move, but they are still trying to claw their way through a competitive marketplace.”

His 17 years in Los Angeles taught him the Galaxy face a similar challenge. “Even with David Beckham, we were always humble enough to understand it was a Dodgers-Lakers town in which the Kings were popular thanks to their titles,” Leiweke says.

The peculiarities of Toronto, or as he consistently refers to it, “the uniqueness,” are core to Leiweke’s plan for the future. “Toronto is a top-four marketplace, behind New York and Los Angeles and close in size to Chicago, but what sets it apart and makes it unlike anything I have seen in sports is [Toronto FC] can be second only to the Leafs here,” he says. “The Leafs are the air they breathe in this city. Between air and the Leafs, it would be a toss-up -- but where else does [an MLS team] have the chance to become a relevant, important franchise in a relevant, important marketplace?”

This question answers another in Leiweke’s mind, one the North American football community keeps lobbing around: Has he overpaid by offering Bradley a $6.5 million a year salary -- more than six times his reported wage at Serie A Roma? “If you are in some MLS cities or even European clubs, what we paid for Michael will never make sense and I understand that,” he says. “But Toronto is a city that dedicates eight straight sports pages to his arrival and where he and Defoe received a standing ovation when they arrived at a Raptors game. … Where else does that happen in North America?”

Source: http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/relega...d/1608?cc=5901

[Beach_Red]

TL was in LA. He knows that even Beckham couldn't get the Galaxy sold out or near 30,000.

To me the extra seats are a red herring. If the end game is outdoor games and Grey Cups, TFC attendance really doesn't matter. They need seats to be able to get those games.

I forget, what was the reason given for this reno when it was first announced? Why are they doing this?

[OgtheDim]

If Seattle can get 40K we can certainly get 30K. The demographics are there in terms of disposable income, age and interest. That, and, 2 years ago, its wasn't 50K of Beckham supporters at BMO. The base for this team is bigger then people realise.

Pricing, quality, atmosphere - all can get this team to 30K.

Personally, I think the doable and attainable ceiling for this team is 40K by 2024.

[Beach_Red]

But Toronto isn't L.A.

It's a different city with different demographic.

If TL believes TFC can get 30K people to their games, then so be it. As a fan, I support higher capacity BMO field simply because MLSE wouldn't jack up ticket prices like they would with smaller BMO field.

EDIT: TL already made it clear that Toronto isn't L.A. in the past. He used media coverage both markets as proof that TFC will be bigger in Toronto than LAG would be in L.A.

So, if TFC. Is going to be bigger than the Galaxy, why do they have to share a stadium with a CFL team? Why isn't all this money being spent on a better soccer-only stadium for a team that's going to be so big?

[TFC07]

If Seattle can get 40K we can certainly get 30K. The demographics are there in terms of disposable income, age and interest. That, and, 2 years ago, its wasn't 50K of Beckham supporters at BMO. The base for this team is bigger then people realise.

Pricing, quality, atmosphere - all can get this team to 30K.

Personally, I think the doable and attainable ceiling for this team is 40K by 2024.

Agreed.

As long TFC puts out a good product on the field, then people will come to support them. Market is there if things are done right.

But if we see football lines and awful turf (which will affect quality of the game), then people wouldn't come out to support TFC.

[TFC07]

So, if TFC. Is going to be bigger than the Galaxy, why do they have to share a stadium with a CFL team? Why isn't all this money being spent on a better soccer-only stadium for a team that's going to be so big?

Honestly, that's million dollar question right now. Right now, it seems like City of Toronto is forcing Argos on MLSE, but who really knows what's going on in the background.

Btw: doesn't Galaxy share a stadium with university football team?

[Beach_Red]

If Seattle can get 40K we can certainly get 30K. The demographics are there in terms of disposable income, age and interest. That, and, 2 years ago, its wasn't 50K of Beckham supporters at BMO. The base for this team is bigger then people realise.

Pricing, quality, atmosphere - all can get this team to 30K.

Personally, I think the doable and attainable ceiling for this team is 40K by 2024.

I agree. Which is why this renovation is so frustrating. Is there really any need to ask for government money and make the stadium a compromise?

[Canary10]

I hate the meccano set too. I hate it.

The vision you have takes decades.

He's not imho going to invest in BMO if it's soccer only. He'll keep it as it is.

He saw what the financial impact of Beckham was. It wasn't anything close to recouping the incremental ninety million dollars we are talking about here.

BMO will never be soccer-only, and great (or at least not for a long time). The math doesn't work. (sigh)

Leiweke does think audaciously and sometimes unrealistically big. I think there is a big part of this that for him is about putting Toronto FC on the international soccer map, however realistic that is. I agree it can't be done at this point without the hockey and probably not the football too in terms of the finances, but possibly he sees that as the necessary evil?

[Whoop]

I really can’t see them having multiple outdoor games every year at BMO for a couple of reasons.

1. NHL mandates who gets them. You have to lobby the BOG and play nice to get your chance. Playing as the road team in one guarantees you will get one at a future date. Leafs will get the 2018 one in return for being the road team in this year’s one. Leafs getting multiple games a year will cause outrage across the NHL.
2. With regards to doing it for profit. Yea MLSE will make money off it but it will be a part of HRR (Remember that from the lockout?) The more Leafs related revenue MLSE generates the more they will have to throw into the revenue sharing pot.
3. The glut of games this year was to counteract the loss of revenues from the lockout season. Daly and Bettman have already stated they will scale it back in the coming years to sustain interest in them.
4. Washington, Minnesota, Colorado, Columbus, San Jose, Montreal, Ottawa and Florida are all candidates for future outdoor games.

You are going to have a situation where there are 2-4 outdoor games a year and they will rotate between cities. No team in the NHL is going to be able to host multiple games every year.
NBC will dictate what markets get the Winter Classic to make sure ratings are high and the Stadium Series games will be doled out to teams that have played nice over the previous years.

The more revenue the better, the team still gets it's slice. I mean the Leafs can make a killin on merchandise and auxiliary events.

NBC won't be driving it, Sportsnet will especially given the astronomical amount they paid for TV rights.

The Leafs probably have one of the few markets that can sustain multiple games, see Yankee Stadium this year.

Washington is getting next year's winter classic.

[Whoop]

The city isn't forcing the Argos on TFC. MLSE knows if it wants to get money from government they'll have to include the Argos. One way to avoid that would be to be pay for the expansion themselves. But you don't want to put up your own money up. And you know it's easier to get the money if you throw in "well we're also doing it for the Argos too"

[TFC07]

The city isn't forcing the Argos on TFC. MLSE knows if it wants to get money from government they'll have to include the Argos. One way to avoid that would be to be pay for the expansion themselves. But you don't want to put up your own money up. And you know it's easier to get the money if you throw in "well we're also doing it for the Argos too"

This might be true and I wouldn't be surprised if Bell is forcing the issue here.

[Areathrasher]

The more revenue the better, the team still gets it's slice. I mean the Leafs can make a killin on merchandise and auxiliary events.

NBC won't be driving it, Sportsnet will especially given the astronomical amount they paid for TV rights.

The Leafs probably have one of the few markets that can sustain multiple games, see Yankee Stadium this year.

Washington is getting next year's winter classic.

The New York games were tied into it being Superbowl week. Kind of an outlier situation.

Can you imagine the shit storm from other owners and markets if the Leafs have multiple outdoor games every year? Leopold and Ted L in Washington have been lobbying the BOG for years for a game. Washington is only getting it next year and there is still nothing slated for Minny.

The NYD Winter Classic is NBC's baby, it was their idea. They are going to hold sway what markets it's in.
Regardless, who knows what the appitite will be for these games in 3-4 years if there are multiple games every year. Demand/Novelty will probably wear off.

[Whoop]

The Leafs have been lobbying for a game for years too but they've never had the facility for it. Soon they will.
The Leafs will get the 2017 or 2018 Winter Classic , whichever is their 100th anniversary, regardless of NBC.

[TFC07]

The New York games were tied into it being Superbowl week. Kind of an outlier situation.

Can you imagine the shit storm from other owners and markets if the Leafs have multiple outdoor games every year? Leopold and Ted L in Washington have been lobbying the BOG for years for a game. Washington is only getting it next year and there is still nothing slated for Minny.

The NYD Winter Classic is NBC's baby, it was their idea. They are going to hold sway what markets it's in.
Regardless, who knows what the appitite will be for these games in 3-4 years if there are multiple games every year. Demand/Novelty will probably wear off.

Who cares what other owners think.

Toronto Maple Leafs are biggest and most profitable team in NHL which losing teams benefit from revenue sharing

[Pint]

Even if MLSE wanted to put up the money themselves they need city approval since it is a city property which would likely also be contingent on taking the Argos. It's like when you were a kid and the only way your mom would let you go to the park with your friends was to take your little brother.

The only people not being asked for money are the actual owners of the Argos or the CFL which happen to be the people getting the most out of this deal.

[OgtheDim]

The city isn't forcing the Argos on TFC. ..

Actually, they pretty much are.

If MLSE wants to do ANYTHING to that stadium, they require City approval. Even if the City put in no money, it would still require City approval at council level. In order to do that, the deal is the Argos get in. Typical Council trading - been going on for years. E.g. Jack Layton traded his support for the Sheppard Subway to Mel in exchange for Mel ensuring streetcar traffic was not expanded in Layton's ward (residents in the early 90's in that ward HATED the streetcars).

[Whoop]

The Leafs and Soortsnet will come up with some marketing thing like the Heritage Classic (which was around before the NYD Winter Classic).

This is more than just an "outdoor" game but a chance to increase capacity. You can't get more than the 19,000 you can get in the ACC. Having 40,000 seats will allow more people access to a game.

They'll come up with something like the Rivals Classic and the games will be against Montreal, Ottawa, Detroit, Chicago, maybe Vancouver, games that will be guaranteed sell outs. It will be the new premium games.

You won't see Toronto vs Nashville or Toronto vs Columbus at BMO.

[Whoop]

Actually, they pretty much are.

If MLSE wants to do ANYTHING to that stadium, they require City approval. Even if the City put in no money, it would still require City approval at council level. In order to do that, the deal is the Argos get in. Typical Council trading - been going on for years. E.g. Jack Layton traded his support for the Sheppard Subway to Mel in exchange for Mel ensuring streetcar traffic was not expanded in Layton's ward (residents in the early 90's in that ward HATED the streetcars).

But if MLSE paid for everything themselves the city wouldn't object.... Much like when MLSE paid for the north stands on their own and when they installed grass on their own.

The thing is MLSE is looking for money. At that point the city says sure - council did vote it through - if you take the Argos.

Why they need $10 million when they could do it all themselves is the question I have.

[TFC07]

But if MLSE paid for everything themselves the city wouldn't object.... Much like when MLSE paid for the north stands on their own and when they installed grass on their own.

The thing is MLSE is looking for money. At that point the city says sure - council did vote it through - if you take the Argos.

Why they need $10 million when they could do it all themselves is the question I have.

How much did it cost to install grass and north stand? Peanuts compare to putting a roof and adding 10K seats.

MLSE is making a major investment to a stadium they don't even own. Having City and/or Argos pay for some of it if they want CFL at BMO field sounds fair.

[OgtheDim]

The City still had to approve those things.

Its the threat of not doing so that creates wheeling and dealing - the city CAN object to whatever it wants when it comes to the Ex. Without the support of Kelly, this expansion dies. His support, and Grimes on the Ex board, is contingent upon the Argos moving. Without the exec approving this, MLSE would have to get 2/3 of council to add this item to a council agenda - Not going to happen.

[lanarkist]

But if MLSE paid for everything themselves the city wouldn't object.... Much like when MLSE paid for the north stands on their own and when they installed grass on their own.

The thing is MLSE is looking for money. At that point the city says sure - council did vote it through - if you take the Argos.

Why they need $10 million when they could do it all themselves is the question I have.

Not really, this expansion is way different than the North End expansion. Based on what we're hearing, MLSE is going to be completely overhauling that section of the Exhibition grounds. Seat expansion alone in the East, North and South would require the road way to be moved, and parking to be eliminated, especially with expanded concourses to match the higher number of people as well as the structural changes to build a roof. That's not even to mention where ever they plan to install temporary seating for expanded events.

If MLSE wants this, the reality is they have to play ball with the City because they built the stadium on City land in the first place. Trade offs are trade offs.

[Areathrasher]

Who cares what other owners think.

Toronto Maple Leafs are biggest and most profitable team in NHL which losing teams benefit from revenue sharing

Why don't they host the draft and all star game every year?

Same rules apply.

[Beach_Red]

How much did it cost to install grass and north stand? Peanuts compare to putting a roof and adding 10K seats.

MLSE is making a major investment to a stadium they don't even own. Having City and/or Argos pay for some of it if they want CFL at BMO field sounds fair.

"Making a major investment to a stadium they don't even own." When you put it like that it just sounds like bad business. And if the CFL field affects TFC at all it seems like really bad business. It seems like it will end up a bad compromise for the sake of not much money stadium-wise.

More and more I see why the NFL insist on individual owners putting up their own money and not corporate ownership.

[TFC07]

Why don't they host the draft and all star game every year?

Same rules apply.

Why would they want to host it every year? Outdoor game is a big deal for MLSE because they can make more money while getting more people who don't normally get the chance to watch Leafs play live to go their games.

[Huyton]

So, if TFC. Is going to be bigger than the Galaxy, why do they have to share a stadium with a CFL team? Why isn't all this money being spent on a better soccer-only stadium for a team that's going to be so big?

Why indeed? Think big...BMO Field will eventually be for the Argos. TFC will move into the stadium that will be built for the World Cup Final and the NFL team.