Keep Winter or Scrap Him?

[joeyjones]

for all the posters pointing to the CCL games as a reason for having hope in Winter as a coach: our defense was giving up way too many chances and Kocic came up big on several occasions and Frings helped "sweep" out other chances. i have not seen Winter adapt tactically in many situations, and the defense was not sorted out in the CCL games, imo....

[Roogsy]

^ It is funny I have no hate for Winter, I hope we get a win and he starts turning things around. That does not mean he shuold not be fired. But getting into these discussions makes me dislike the guy, his interviews are not helping, but the posters, comming up with excuse after excuse for him, gets tiresome.

I wonder what the media are saying about Pep after this week ( not that there should be calls for his firing) but I am sure that he is being heavely critized, its his team, he had a bad week, he takes responsability. That is called leadership.

We don't have a leader managing this club. We have a politician covering his ass. Sound familiar?

[pekduck]

Still waiting for a reply Roogsy. You called me out telling me how misinformed I am with your asinine face palms.
I backed up my arguement... where's yours?

In case you didn't notice, I am actually involved in a conversation that is actually the theme of THIS thread. But fine, you want to start hte DeRo thing up? You think you have what it takes to take this topic on against me? It's not like I haven't proven willing to go 100 pages with anyone on this topic right? You think you can come at me with an interview that doesn't even prove your point and think I will back down?



OK...let's go back and revisit your actual statement instead of what you are now saying you are proving shall we?



Please oh please look at the bolded part here and write down the exact quote from the interview where he says that? Please note that the key point I am disagreeing with is the timing. I do not deny he gave an ultimatum (which wasn't even a trade demand) and that can be backed up in months-worth of threads. I am telling you you are outright wrong that he specifically asked to be traded and in particular before Winter arrived.

So show me. No interpretations. No reading between the lines. Give me the exact words.

Until you can do that, I suggest you keep to the topic of THIS thread.

chill guys... i can't believe two professionals (at least i know one of them in real life, lol ) will entertain the notion of.. gasp... 'winning an argument over interwebz' lol

at least take it offline else where over PM or something. I think most of us can recite what Roogs will post (as we've seen thousands of times) and the counter points (as we've seen thousands of times) and know that at the end... it'll just be 'agree to disagree' at best...

soo... who's going to watch Bayern vs RM later today?

[Stryker]

You really think Winter wanted to lose his best player? DeRo made up his mind that he wanted to go to NY unless we offered him a king's ransom.

I was perfectly on topic and was not the one trying to ignite the whole DeRo bonfire again.
Whatever, I'd rather play Battlefield 3 than do the DeRo dance with Roogsy for umpteen pages.

[Roogsy]

chill guys... i can't believe two professionals (at least i know one of them in real life, lol ) will entertain the notion of.. gasp... 'winning an argument over interwebz' lol

at least take it offline else where over PM or something. I think most of us can recite what Roogs will post (as we've seen thousands of times) and the counter points (as we've seen thousands of times) and know that at the end... it'll just be 'agree to disagree' at best...

soo... who's going to watch Bayern vs RM later today?

It's not a "agree to disagree" issue Kev. There are lots of mistruths and falsehoods out there so why not settle them once and for all? Wouldn't it then help future conversations where somebody says "this person said this" and we call say "no he didn't"? This "let's all get along" doesn't work if you cover over the fundamental points that cause the disagreements to begin with because all you will get is the topic reappearing down the line.

Either water is wet or it isn't. Facts are facts. Either a person said something or they didn't. I can just imagine next year people are going to say "Winter didn't say we will make the playoffs" when this week that's exactly what he did. And I will sit here and my head will explode.

[trane]

We don't have a leader managing this club. We have a politician covering his ass. Sound familiar?

That seems to be a real plus if you want to work for this club.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I was perfectly on topic and was not the one trying to trying to ignite the whole DeRo bonfire again.
Whatever, I'd rather play Battlefield 3 than do the DeRo dance with Roogsy for umpteen pages.

Good idea. That horse has been soundly beaten.

[pekduck]

It's not a "agree to disagree" issue Kev. There are lots of mistruths and falsehoods out there so why not settle them once and for all? Wouldn't it then help future conversations where somebody says "this person said this" and we call say "no he didn't"? This "let's all get along" doesn't work if you cover over the fundamental points that cause the disagreements to begin with because all you will get is the topic reappearing down the line.

Either water is wet or it isn't. Facts are facts. Either a person said something or they didn't. I can just imagine next year people are going to say "Winter didn't say we will make the playoffs" when this week that's exactly what he did. And I will sit here and my head will explode.

i said the best outcome of will be' agree to disagree', come on roogs, winning argument over interwebz using logic and facts?

those who know, knew. those who doesn't, doesn't is how i view most of the discussions on the internet anyway...

therefore, my point is that trying to convince each other over internet is futile... i'd rather go have a pint and watch CCL, lol

[Canary10]

It's not a "agree to disagree" issue Kev. There are lots of mistruths and falsehoods out there so why not settle them once and for all? Wouldn't it then help future conversations where somebody says "this person said this" and we call say "no he didn't"? This "let's all get along" doesn't work if you cover over the fundamental points that cause the disagreements to begin with because all you will get is the topic reappearing down the line.

Either water is wet or it isn't. Facts are facts. Either a person said something or they didn't. I can just imagine next year people are going to say "Winter didn't say we will make the playoffs" when this week that's exactly what he did. And I will sit here and my head will explode.

There is no truth in the DeRo matter. Everyone who has had an experience with two parties who are in a disagreement know there isn't truth. That's what makes this so pointless to keep rehashing it.

[Menelaos]

So, this thread continues with such new information.

If I could offer a summary of what I'm reading from our more vocal and repetitive contributors it might read as follows.

Winter's system isn't working quite yet and though there are countless examples of teams that have struggled but turned it around, it will never work. This includes SKC in our own league. Well, it might work with a different coach but that coach is going to have to play some new system for awhile while we develop our talent to play a 4-3-3... which might never happen since the 4-3-3 never works anyways.

As for a new system, well it won't be a possession minded attacking style. As was definitively stated, it never works. Except in other examples but those are irrelevant. It should be a MLS suited style. Like a long ball kind of thing. Well, maybe not since it didn't work out so well for Mo and Carver and Cummins but at least with them we were earning 0.812312923109123789130713 more points per game. Scratch that. It will be a defensive minded counter attacking style.

Like Preki? Oh shit. No not at all like Preki. It will be entertaining counter attacking because we will bring back Santos and Gordon and Attakora and Tchani and DeRo. Hey, that DeRo may not be scoring but you should see his crazy ass bicycle kick passes. That's your entertainment right there. And don't go crapping on DeRo, he was the league's MVP last year. Yeah, 0 for 26 shots but you can't discount last year's performance. Well, except in the case of Danny Koevermans who had 8 goals in 10 appearances last year but only 1 in 5 this year. We can discount HIS performance last year because, well he isn't a hometown boy. Waste of DP space that guy. When DC doesn't sign DeRo to a DP contract because of his performance this year it will be because they can't recognize talent. I mean come on, bicycle friggin kick passes? How sweet is that? We can snap him up then.

So, while we wait on Jesus to come back to us, we can then go forward with a new MLS coach and tell him, ok... here are some traditional MLS pluggers. We want you to play a style that isn't counter attacking, isn't long ball, and isn't possession minded. Got it. Figure it out. NY did. That one year. You have less than 1 year to turn this baby around while we continue the immediate search for your replacement.

This may be a few pages back, but I could not have summarized this thread better.

[Bluenose13]

Stryker & Roogsy that's about enough of the back & forth BS......Take it to PM,s or better yet, drop it and move on to the topic of the thread.

Last warning.....Cheers.

[Beach_Red]

So, while we wait on Jesus to come back to us, we can then go forward with a new MLS coach and tell him, ok... here are some traditional MLS pluggers. We want you to play a style that isn't counter attacking, isn't long ball, and isn't possession minded. Got it. Figure it out. NY did. That one year. You have less than 1 year to turn this baby around while we continue the immediate search for your replacement.

No, all we're really saying is, please stop us being embarrassed by "traditional MLS pluggers" and win a game. We're not asking for the MLS Cup or the Supporter's Shield or the CCL final - just one win.

Why is a year too short a time? We accepted not making the playoffs in the new management's first year, it was only their first year, fine. It doesn't seem crazy to want the team to win a game in year two.

But it really does seem that if don't actually ask them to win a game they don't think it's important as long as they're making "progress." So unless they're "progress" is towards getting the salary cap raised and the rosters expanded and the player quotas changed, then yeah, they're going to have figure out how to win with a whole lot of "traditional MLS pluggers," because that's the league we're in.

[Canary10]

Rollins is claiming Winter has 4 games to turn it around.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Rollins is claiming Winter has 4 games to turn it around.

Wow. 4 games and TFC raise a Black Flag?



I miss kevvv...

[Shakes McQueen]

Rollins is claiming Winter has 4 games to turn it around.

I'd say that's probably accurate, in terms of how much longer MLSE will give him.

- Scott

[__wowza]

You've not got legs to stand on, mate.

League MVP, Golden Boot, MLS Best Eleven, the hat-trick to single-handedly take two points from TFC and not to mention this tidbit from Thierry Henry: "In this league I haven’t seen anybody better than Dwayne De Rosario...For me, he’s the face of this league".

actually, i got plenty of legs to stand on here.
my statement was in regards to his time with NYRB, he was decent there, jabby is correct, but he wasn't performing as well as he was with toronto. he averaged a .50G and .17A rate for us vs. his .15G and .30A rate with them. for some reason all of your comments seem to reflect his time with DC instead of with NYRB. he won topXI and scored the hat trick for DC. as for the golden boot, yup, DC. 13 of his 16 league leading goals came from DC en route to the golden boot. thierry henry's quote, taken in november after dero had won MVP with.. again.. DC.


if that's the case, then certainly NY would be on the hook for the trade instead of us? mind you, i haven't read nearly as many arguments amongst the NYRB supporters crucifying their FO for letting him leave. what im trying to say is that i can't picture metz supporters being pissed off at their management for letting Cissé leave, going to another club and then performing remarkably with newcastle, but i digress.. no more dero talk.

[Whoop]

Those 4 games include the Voyageurs Cup.

I get the impression if Winter loses league matches + gets knocked out of the Voyageurs Cup by Montreal, they'll cut him loose.

[Canary10]

^ Yup.

[joeyjones]

Those 4 games include the Voyageurs Cup.

I get the impression if Winter loses league matches + gets knocked out of the Voyageurs Cup by Montreal, they'll cut him loose.

i doubt that they would actually cut him loose. i agree with Duane in his article that Winter will most likely be offered another position. whether he takes it or not is a different story.

[Whoop]

Sorry should have clarified.

I figure they'll "kick him upstairs".

[Ageroo]

Sorry should have clarified.

I figure they'll "kick him upstairs".

I think so...I don't think he will just tuck tail and run. If he is ousted as coach I think he'll move upstairs as well.

[Richard]

At the end of the day all i care about are wins and club vision. If Winter is let go i hope they bring in someone who can continue the overall club vision but also produce results with the first team.

[Canary10]

I think this is a fairly reasonable response. If, as Winter says, we're playing fairly well and just need that one win to get rolling then he's got a few more chances to prove it. (I don't think he's far off in saying this personally. I don't think our actual football is as bad as a lot of people say). And if not, we make the change early enough that we aren't setting up next season to be a failure too, as some like Exile have pointed out.

[Menelaos]

Those 4 games include the Voyageurs Cup.

I get the impression if Winter loses league matches + gets knocked out of the Voyageurs Cup by Montreal, they'll cut him loose.

What if we do well in VC but poorly in league matches? Does the VC performance buy him more time?

[Pookie]

The way I see it, there are several outcomes that will kill this thread.

1) Winter resigns
2) Winter is sacked
3) Winter starts winning some fucking games
4) You persuade everybody on this board that Winter is worth keeping around

Or we could just start new threads on the subject, because it wont go away until there is a resolution. If you have a personal distaste for this discussion, you could always abstain.

Personally I feel that while this thread continues, and the sentiment grows in one way or the other, that will have -some- influence on the outcome. There's no doubt were turning the screw here, and thats exactly what we should be doing.

Dude, (I've lived through the 80s so I can use the word Dude),

Way back when this thread was new, I highlighted that I am fine with letting Winter go... PROVIDED.... we change the one making the decision. If Anselmi stays, the only benefit we can hope for is that the new coach has better luck than the previous one. A 50/50 coin toss is no way to run a club. I've highlighted that should be our focus and if the new guy decides to scrap Winter, fine. I'm not his agent. Good luck in your future endeavours. But to think that Tom Anselmi can do anything but get lucky on a coach selection is silly. I guess he can't go 0 for 7 or 8 or 9 can he? One time he is going to get it right. Right?

I have no issue at all with discussion but I am curious as to why you think 59 people in a poll are effectively "turning the screws" on what is clearly a bad situation. Why the need for so many posts that effectively highlight we are bad? We get it. Bad team. Got it. Thanks. We all want to do something about it.

I suspect that the FO gets it too. They are staring at financial losses if they don't make the playoffs from missed dates to renewals. If what is reported is true and Winter has 4 more games to turn it around, I suspect being 0-6-0 has more to do with it.

Is that really your objective, to bring about a coaching change through the RPB website? Or is it more fundamental than that in that just a part of you wants to impact the RPB culture itself through its message board?

[Fort York Redcoat]

What if we do well in VC but poorly in league matches? Does the VC performance buy him more time?

Knowing that the majority of fans still put league before Vcup I think that would give you your answer.

There are those that will still give him the season. There are those that will want him gone.

I think the amount that put the Vcup outing as the difference are few.

[Beach_Red]

Knowing that the majority of fans still put league before Vcup I think that would give you your answer.

There are those that will still give him the season. There are those that will want him gone.

I think the amount that put the Vcup outing as the difference are few.

Except it's against Montreal. How can we lose to Montreal and not be pissed?

[Fort York Redcoat]

^Definitely and added factor but not enough for everyone.

[spark]

Way back when this thread was new, I highlighted that I am fine with letting Winter go... PROVIDED.... we change the one making the decision. If Anselmi stays, the only benefit we can hope for is that the new coach has better luck than the previous one.

I don't think anyone can argue with this and IMO spot on. For me I'm having trouble believing Anselmi & Co. have any clue what makes a great manager or who is a real winner. I think if you go into his office with a big 10-gallon hat firing off your six-shooters you could end up being the next head coach. Like you said it's another roll of the dice - a broken clock is right twice a day so maybe they'll luck out but this trial & error way of management is getting booooooring.

[Beach_Red]

I don't think anyone can argue with this and IMO spot on. For me I'm having trouble believing Anselmi & Co. have any clue what makes a great manager or who is a real winner. I think if you go into his office with a big 10-gallon hat firing off your six-shooters you could end up being the next head coach. Like you said it's another roll of the dice - a broken clock is right twice a day so maybe they'll luck out but this trial & error way of management is getting booooooring.

I don't really get this. Anselmi hasn't picked any of the guys who've tried to run this team, why would he pick the next one? When the franchise fell in their laps they asked the league to give them someone and when that finally ran its course he asked Jurgen Klinsmann to find them someone. Is Klinsmann the man in the ten gallon hat?