Winter Approval Rating - June 2011

[P-NUTZ]

cool, i'm responding to my own post! I think i am giddily influenced by these last two signings and happily pressed the 'yes' whereas i felt more "on the fence" originally. i am basing this on my belief of what might happen...dangerous i know.

wow. now im quoting my own quote on my first quote...well im going to admit that after those signings and the vancouver wins i was ready to believe that "we were going to start to tear this league a new one". i said this based on my belief of what was going to happen with the teams performance and Winters potential to get the most out of them.

but im saddened by the last two losses and think back to my original 'on the fence position' based on my apprehension about his tactics, subs and conviction in motivating the players he had to work with.

it's hard to find reason to say hes a good coach yet after following the two vancouver games with such losses.

i will say tho - that hopefully these new players make the team more coachable? and that whatever goodness winter or deklirk have to offer appears in results - again more of what "might happen".

and dangerous again i know. especially when it can hurt enough so that you simply dont feel the pain as much.

[Heathen]

You don't have to apologies more than once if at all,when your post was reported,link took me straight to it and I replied from my phone while working without seeing your explanation few posts down.

I apologies for the rant,but lets face it it is a f*cking annoying and tiring to have this constant shit storm between two groups.Both groups are right and wrong and no one want to slow down,everyone is pushing his opinion/agendas and at the end of the day we as supporters suffer the most.


Let's not forget we are supporting the same team here,and if we don't slow down a bit it will hurt us as a SG even more.

No worries, us 115ers have to stick together.

[Roogsy]

Okay...I'll try to speak to this.

Is he a good coach? Not sure yet.

Is our record under winter good? No...it's terrible.

Ok we're starting on the right foot. We are in agreement here.

Is our record in half a season an indicator of whether or not he's a good coach? Not in my opinion. Lots of coaches have stretches like this one. Some
continue to fail while others go on to succeed.

I don't disagree. I think the problem with this statement is that it is too general. Some coaches struggle in the beginning but owners and management stick with them because they see potential, or because they excel in particular areas. Rarely do you see a coach with a terrible record given leeway for the sake of being given leeway.

Is winters adherence to the 4-3-3 a sign that he's a bad coach?

No...not to me. Suggesting that he doesn't know when to switch formations because he doesnt have the "acumen" to do so is ridiculous. The guy knows the game better than any of us combined. Sticking to the system is a choice he's making.

The measure here isn't whether he knows football better than I do or you do, it's whether he can coach better than his opposition coach. Changing strategies has nothing to do with football knowledge. I don't have to be a professional footballer to know that changing strategies and being adaptive is an integral part of coaching success.

I think he's sticking to it to get the players he's sees a future in (Frei, ecks, cann, nana, JDG, tchani, maicon, Gordon, plata etc.) the chance to learn it and get comfortable playing it. He doesnt have the 11-15 guys that he wants yet but when he does...at least he'll have given the guys he does like a chance to play the system so the learning curve is lessened.

What's the point of implementing a completely new ideology only to ditch it for results..and then have to play catch up implementing it again later?

I simply can't see the benefit of implementing a strategy before you have the players. All you do is cause frustration with current players, most of whom won't be here in a year's time and frustration with the fans that have suffered enough already. Spending time teaching something to someone who will not be around to implement is a waste of time is it not?

We choked down 4 years of horrible, unattractive football and NOW we're pissed off? Some suporters (like myself) called for this change during or after the first season. Back when questioning the direction and style of the club earned you the "not a real supporter" tag.

2 things here. 1) I've been pissed off at TFC since NY, October 2009. That game was an embarrassment and TFC only made things worse with the 2010 season. 2) The "real supporter" tag is an offensive classification that neither side should be using against each other and yet the accusations on each side are that the other side is accusing them of not being real supporters. Can't you see that this very action you objected to way back then is happening again? You just don't happen to be one of those "questioning" things anymore.

Now that it's finally here I'm willing to wait a little longer to see if winter and co. can make it successful.

I don't think we have a choice. Doesn't mean I have to be happy about it.

Is winter a good coach? I'm not sure. How the fuck could I possibly know in such a short time period and under such odd circumstances?

There already is evidence. Is it conclusive? No. But no opinion is ever formed on all the information, just on information that is fed along the way. For many, there is sufficient information to begin formulating an opinion on Winter's abilities. For those that don't feel like they have information, wouldn't it be premature, given the results so far, to give him a vote of confidence like the one in this poll?

Those of you who are already convinced that he's a terrible coach are entitled to your opinions but I'll be completely frank about it:

If you're already certain that he's a bad coach than you have an inflated view of your own footballing knowledge. The guy has forgotten more about football than you'll ever know. That is about as clear a fact as you're gonna get on these boards.

So you'll forgive me if I take the wait and see approach instead of debating with people who've already made up their minds.

I don't need to be a hockey expert to know Scotty Bowman was a good coach. Many if not most scouts for teams in most sports never even played the sport at the level they are scouting and yet teams rely on them for their suggestions and analysis. This argument that Winter knows more about football than I do is irrelevant because understanding results are not dependant on how much knowledge one has in a particular sport, just a basic ability to compare. And more importantly, the only person that Winter needs to know "more" than is the opposing coach. And that too is also something fans can compare. I don't believe Winter has shown that ability. In many games, he has been outcoached by the opposition which contributed to our current record. It hasn't always been about his "undertalented" team. Sometimes, the loss of points also falls on his lap. Of course, he isn't going to "trade for more talent" when it comes to himself now is he?

If you want me to admit I know less about football than Winter, I readily do so. In fact, I know less about formations and tactics than many people on this board alone, let alone a professional footballer.

But I know performance measures. I know results. I know about leaders and management. I know about quality and intangibles. And I know how to compare a good performer to a poor performer. So I use what I know to make a conclusion about this coach. That's all I do.

[Dreadlocks]

Wow, what a shit show this thread has turned into in certain parts!

But, I love the passion and although we may not all agree on everything, this clearly illustrates that we all love our team!

Go Reds

[Whoop]

Has Winter made any substitutions that had have a positive effect on a match?

The only one I can think of off the top of my head was he put in Alan Gordon into the LA match down in LA, but that was because he was forced to due to injury to Peterson.

[nimamalek]

He makes very poor tactical decisions, even with good players his tactics and player selection would cost us points

[flambe]

I simply can't see the benefit of implementing a strategy before you have the players. All you do is cause frustration with current players, most of whom won't be here in a year's time and frustration with the fans that have suffered enough already. Spending time teaching something to someone who will not be around to implement is a waste of time is it not?

So are you saying you would be happy with another "rebuild" in the near future, once the additional players Winter is seeking are on-board?

[Wooster_TFC]

There already is evidence. Is it conclusive? No. But no opinion is ever formed on all the information, just on information that is fed along the way. For many, there is sufficient information to begin formulating an opinion on Winter's abilities. For those that don't feel like they have information, wouldn't it be premature, given the results so far, to give him a vote of confidence like the one in this poll?

This could easily be changed to:

There already is evidence. Is it conclusive? No. But no opinion is ever formed on all the information, just on information that is fed along the way. For many, there is sufficient information to begin formulating an opinion on Winter's abilities. For those that don't feel like they have information, wouldn't it be premature, given the crap hand he was dealt to begin with, to consider him a failure?

[Pookie]

Has Winter made any substitutions that had have a positive effect on a match?

The only one I can think of off the top of my head was he put in Alan Gordon into the LA match down in LA, but that was because he was forced to due to injury to Peterson.

Has Winter had any substitutions that were capable of having a positive effect on match?

For example, the Subs not used in the Houston game were: Doneil Henry, Demitrius Omphroy, Matt Stinson, Nathan Sturgis, Milos Kocic.

Which player not used would have made a positive impact on the match?

That's why I come back to the fact that his task is to raise the collective talent bar with the starting 11 and on the bench. Once done, he needs to get results out of that group.

[Roogsy]

So are you saying you would be happy with another "rebuild" in the near future, once the additional players Winter is seeking are on-board?

To be honest, I don't think a "rebuild" is necessary every single time you bring in a new coach. Sometimes, you can build on what was done before you. That was our mistake with Preki. We had a decent team that needed tinkering, not blowing up and Preki came in and not just blew it up but blew himself up in the process.

2010 could have been a great year. Address the shortcomings that had been here for some time (a decent, steady CB pairing, a consistent striker) and you had a team that at least would have made the playoffs. And then as all good teams do, you continue making adjustments, changes and developing players.

Blowing teams up year after year is not a solution in my opinion.

[Roogsy]

This could easily be changed to:

There already is evidence. Is it conclusive? No. But no opinion is ever formed on all the information, just on information that is fed along the way. For many, there is sufficient information to begin formulating an opinion on Winter's abilities. For those that don't feel like they have information, wouldn't it be premature, given the crap hand he was dealt to begin with, to consider him a failure?

If you find yourself in the camp highlighted above, then yes it does work and yes it would be.

For the record, I don't think he was dealt a crap hand. But that is another discussion. My opinion is based on what he has now. You use what you've got. He may not have much, but my opinion is a better coach would get better results. Certainly better than 6-2 and 5-0.

[Couchy81]

Winter wants to use 4-3-3 consistently so when new players are brought in such as Frings and Koevermans they will simply drop them into the system. If we had not been playing 4-3-3 all year due x amount of players who do not have the technical ability to play it, then suddenly our two new DP's show up and magically everyone on the team is supposed to switch to 4-3-3 and know their roles?

This season was, is, and will be a re-build. Not trying to squeak out results with what we have for the sake of a few points. We are building a team to play 4-3-3 the way Winter and deKlerk have been teaching it in Holland.

[flambe]

To be honest, I don't think a "rebuild" is necessary every single time you bring in a new coach. Sometimes, you can build on what was done before you. That was our mistake with Preki. We had a decent team that needed tinkering, not blowing up and Preki came in and not just blew it up but blew himself up in the process.

2010 could have been a great year. Address the shortcomings that had been here for some time (a decent, steady CB pairing, a consistent striker) and you had a team that at least would have made the playoffs. And then as all good teams do, you continue making adjustments, changes and developing players.

Blowing teams up year after year is not a solution in my opinion.

I agree 100%, that is the main reason we are in this mess to begin with.

However, I think that the more exposure the players get with this new strategy the better the team and it's cohesiveness will be in the future. If this is definitely the strategy we are adopting, we should be playing it regardless of how many of our current roster are around next year. Otherwise we will be starting behind the curve for our 6th season in a row.

[Pookie]

Pachuco,

Just picked up a comment you made in the closed thread and since the conversation is carrying on, I thought I would ask you about it here:

Totally late to the conversation and completely missing the argument. The comparison going on right now is TFC at this point in the season compared to NY at this state in the season the year they turned it around.

Both teams couldn't rely on their DPs at this point.

One team (NY) was doing quite good with the no name players they picked up in the beginning of the season and with their change in strategy and coach. The other team is the one everyone laughs at.

In fact, NY picked up a DP striker after the fact who finished with 2 goals in the season. God to show you how good they were without any production from their DP striker.

If our striker finished the season with 2 goals we will finish the season in last place. We are completely dependent on these guys working out. For NY it was just another piece of the puzzle.

Are we comparing the same seasons?

You are comparing TFC's current season to "NY at this state in the season the year they turned it around."

Are you talking about NYRB's 2010 season? If so, I don't get your reference to the comment that "both teams couldn't rely on their DPs."

Angel had 9 goals on the season heading into July. In the 2009 campaign he had 7 on record as of July 16th.

Not sure how that implies they weren't getting production from their DP prior to Henry, Marquez.

Clearly our DP hasn't made any significant contribution to match that of Angel. Maybe I'm missing something though...?

[Whoop]

Winter wants to use 4-3-3 consistently so when new players are brought in such as Frings and Koevermans they will simply drop them into the system. If we had not been playing 4-3-3 all year due x amount of players who do not have the technical ability to play it, then suddenly our two new DP's show up and magically everyone on the team is supposed to switch to 4-3-3 and know their roles?

This season was, is, and will be a re-build. Not trying to squeak out results with what we have for the sake of a few points. We are building a team to play 4-3-3 the way Winter and deKlerk have been teaching it in Holland.

That's fine, but with Koevermans in the mix where do Alan Gordon and Maicon Santos play?

And with Frings, where do JDG, Tchani, or even Sturgis play?

[v00d00daddy]

Ok we're starting on the right foot. We are in agreement here.

Sweet. LOL

I don't disagree. I think the problem with this statement is that it is too general. Some coaches struggle in the beginning but owners and management stick with them because they see potential, or because they excel in particular areas. Rarely do you see a coach with a terrible record given leeway for the sake of being given leeway.

Well we can't say why Winter is being given leeway or even if he is for that matter. All I was saying is that one poor half season is not some insurmountable obstacle. Things can change.

The measure here isn't whether he knows football better than I do or you do, it's whether he can coach better than his opposition coach. Changing strategies has nothing to do with football knowledge. I don't have to be a professional footballer to know that changing strategies and being adaptive is an integral part of coaching success.

It is...and frankly, there have been times that I've wished that he would tweak the formation or sub in a different player. I'm just thinking/hoping that he didn't because it's part of his plan, and not because he's incompetent.

I simply can't see the benefit of implementing a strategy before you have the players. All you do is cause frustration with current players, most of whom won't be here in a year's time and frustration with the fans that have suffered enough already. Spending time teaching something to someone who will not be around to implement is a waste of time is it not?

For those that will not be around it is a waste of time. However, for those who will be part of this team going forward it is invaluable. As for suffering fans.....meh.....the fans suffered at the hands of different people (except Anselmi who should have been a part of the clean sweep) and I don't think directing frustration born out of years of suffering on to Winter is justified.

2 things here. 1) I've been pissed off at TFC since NY, October 2009. That game was an embarrassment and TFC only made things worse with the 2010 season. 2) The "real supporter" tag is an offensive classification that neither side should be using against each other and yet the accusations on each side are that the other side is accusing them of not being real supporters. Can't you see that this very action you objected to way back then is happening again? You just don't happen to be one of those "questioning" things anymore.

I am questioning things. And I do see that the "not a real supporter" garbage is happening again and I don't condone it...nor will I do it. I think everyone supports how they see fit. I've never once questioned your level of support. This whole "real supporter" idea is one of the reasons why I never joined a SG. Believe me...I get being the voice of dissent. I was there myself quite a while ago. LOL

I don't think we have a choice. Doesn't mean I have to be happy about it.

Absolutely. Conversely...doesn't mean I (or anyone else) have to be angry about it either. To each their own.

There already is evidence. Is it conclusive? No. But no opinion is ever formed on all the information, just on information that is fed along the way. For many, there is sufficient information to begin formulating an opinion on Winter's abilities. For those that don't feel like they have information, wouldn't it be premature, given the results so far, to give him a vote of confidence like the one in this poll?

Again...this is why I didn't vote on this poll (at least I don't think I did LOL). I think a vote of confidence or a vote of non-confidence is premature. But again....to each their own.

I don't need to be a hockey expert to know Scotty Bowman was a good coach. Many if not most scouts for teams in most sports never even played the sport at the level they are scouting and yet teams rely on them for their suggestions and analysis. This argument that Winter knows more about football than I do is irrelevant because understanding results are not dependant on how much knowledge one has in a particular sport, just a basic ability to compare. And more importantly, the only person that Winter needs to know "more" than is the opposing coach. And that too is also something fans can compare. I don't believe Winter has shown that ability. In many games, he has been outcoached by the opposition which contributed to our current record. It hasn't always been about his "undertalented" team. Sometimes, the loss of points also falls on his lap. Of course, he isn't going to "trade for more talent" when it comes to himself now is he?

If you want me to admit I know less about football than Winter, I readily do so. In fact, I know less about formations and tactics than many people on this board alone, let alone a professional footballer.

But I know performance measures. I know results. I know about leaders and management. I know about quality and intangibles. And I know how to compare a good performer to a poor performer. So I use what I know to make a conclusion about this coach. That's all I do.

I get all of this...but for me it's about more than the results. To give you an example that sums up how I feel about this team and Winter at this point in the season.

I watched the recent NYRB game and for the first 25 minutes or so I was happy and thought to myself..."okay..I can see things coming together".

My happiness was tempered because I knew that NYRB had more of the ball and that we were conceding too many chances and leaving too many holes on the field. But I was happy to see us stringing together passes...drawing NYRB players out of their positions....make the simple/quick decisions and turning them all into chances.

Unfortunately my happiness was very short lived.

We know how it ended up and, in fact, I stopped watching after the fourth goal. It all came undone and it made me sick to my stomach. I was seething and was blaming everyone on the pitch.....Winter included.

But the next day I calmed down and decided to hope that we'd see more of the first 25 minutes and less and less of the last shitstorm of that game.

I continue to hold out hope...especially with the arrival of Koevermans and Frings.

Believe me....if this team shows little to no progress for the rest of the year, come the off season...I'll be asking many questions of Winter.

I'm just not there yet.

[Pookie]

That's fine, but with Koevermans in the mix where do Alan Gordon and Maicon Santos play?

They might not. Perhaps they are being dangled in this "trade route" Winter keeps referencing.

[Roogsy]

Voodoo, I think that's progress for both of us. I am ok with leaving it there.

To be honest, I am very keen on seeing how the new DPs will impact this team. While my opinion of Winter remains the same, I am hoping their quality overcomes his deficiencies and gives us some fun football for the last half of the year.

Now that I have a son, I am hoping that by the time he is old enough to take to games, we're not still arguing about how shit our team is.

[v00d00daddy]

That's fine, but with Koevermans in the mix where do Alan Gordon and Maicon Santos play?

And with Frings, where do JDG, Tchani, or even Sturgis play?

Very good question. I think he has intentions of trying both of them (one at a time of course) in the hole behind Koevermans.

He's played Santos there already and I think I noticed Gordon playing back there a bit against Houston.

Unfortunately I don't think either is well suited to the role.

I don't know enough about Frings' distribution to know if he'll fit there...or if Winter has any intention of trying that out.

I think one of Gordon and Santos may become expendable if the right offer comes along.

Wait and see I guess.

[Beach_Red]

This could easily be changed to:

There already is evidence. Is it conclusive? No. But no opinion is ever formed on all the information, just on information that is fed along the way. For many, there is sufficient information to begin formulating an opinion on Winter's abilities. For those that don't feel like they have information, wouldn't it be premature, given the crap hand he was dealt to begin with, to consider him a failure?

How come we're so certain the players were crap but we don't have enough information on the coach? Some of that "crap hand" he was dealt is doing very well with other teams.

[Wooster_TFC]

If you find yourself in the camp highlighted above, then yes it does work and yes it would be.

For the record, I don't think he was dealt a crap hand. But that is another discussion. My opinion is based on what he has now. You use what you've got. He may not have much, but my opinion is a better coach would get better results. Certainly better than 6-2 and 5-0.

I missed the NY game, so I can't really comment on that one. What I saw in the Philly game was that we were down 3-0 at half, and threw everything forward to try and get something out of the game.

Even during their best games at CB and LB respectively, Harden and Gargan/Borman can't be said to be stalwart defenders in those locations. Add to that fact that the FBs were likely told to move forward, it means you have a weaker defensive setup. One backbreaking goal on a bad pass from Frei (or a bad pickup from a midfielder) later, and you're toast. So, you keep throwing them forward in the hopes of getting another couple of goals, and let in a few more.

Realistically, I much prefer going for it once down that much than sitting back and having nothing happen. I would rather get blown out 6-2 during certain games and pulling back others like the 2-2 away to LAG then to lose both games 3-0 and 2-0 respectively because we sat back. During these times of throwing everything forward, our defense is nowhere near good enough to handle the pressure of a quick counter, sadly.

[Wooster_TFC]

How come we're so certain the players were crap but we don't have enough information on the coach? Some of that "crap hand" he was dealt is doing very well with other teams.

Crap hand is more in reference to the state of the team at the time.

For example; the overpayments to certain players by MoJo, the contract issues/past mistreatment that were present with Cann, Attakora, and DeRo, the fact that we were still paying a cap hit for certain players (Robinson, Gerba?), the fact that even having been in the league for 5 years our scouting system was apparently almost non-existent, and the fact that the caretakers made some decisions which he would not have (the Sturgis trade for example). On top of that, most of the players that you would be interested in at that point in the year would still be under contract and want to finish that contract out (see Koevermans as an example).

I understand and agree with the viewpoint that a different coach might have done better with the hand that was dealt, but it's still a pretty crappy hand to be dealt. The key word in this sentence is "might".

Personally, there are a lot of things that I thought were dealt with in the correct way, hence why I voted that I supported what Winter had done so far.

[Beach_Red]

Crap hand is more in reference to the state of the team at the time.

For example; the overpayments to certain players by MoJo, the contract issues/past mistreatment that were present with Cann, Attakora, and DeRo, the fact that we were still paying a cap hit for certain players (Robinson, Gerba?), the fact that even having been in the league for 5 years our scouting system was apparently almost non-existent, and the fact that the caretakers made some decisions which he would not have (the Sturgis trade for example). On top of that, most of the players that you would be interested in at that point in the year would still be under contract and want to finish that contract out (see Koevermans as an example).

I understand and agree with the viewpoint that a different coach might have done better with the hand that was dealt, but it's still a pretty crappy hand to be dealt. The key word in this sentence is "might".

Personally, there are a lot of things that I thought were dealt with in the correct way, hence why I voted that I supported what Winter had done so far.

Yeah, that's all true. I guess it's why for me it adds to the disappointment so far because very little of this was dealt with and really, whether Winter is a great coach or not, most of these issues are management and contract issues which I guess is why Mariner was brought in but wasn't he the assistant coach with New England? Most of these issues seem like they might have needed someone with more GM experience to deal with.

Maybe my expectations were too high, but I felt when they hired a company called Soccer Solutions to look at the entire structure of the organization more would have been done than what we've seen so far.

I hope Winter and Mariner aren't just more scapegoats for a dysfunctional organization.

[Alonso]

Winter wants to use 4-3-3 consistently so when new players are brought in such as Frings and Koevermans they will simply drop them into the system. If we had not been playing 4-3-3 all year due x amount of players who do not have the technical ability to play it, then suddenly our two new DP's show up and magically everyone on the team is supposed to switch to 4-3-3 and know their roles?

This season was, is, and will be a re-build. Not trying to squeak out results with what we have for the sake of a few points. We are building a team to play 4-3-3 the way Winter and deKlerk have been teaching it in Holland.

Exaclty, no point in making a decision on the direction of the club and going about it half assed.

I hope for the love of all that is good that this is in fact the reason for the apparent tactical ineptitude. It's really the only possible explanation, except that Winter doesn't know football which I find even harder to believe.

So, let him have his two years to show us what he can do. I'm sick of the player and coach turnstile.

And I agree with Roogsy on the fact that blowing up the team every year for a new caoch every year is beyond stupid. Preki should have kept the team more or less as it was instead of starting us all back at square one again.

[jloome]

Losing at Real Esteli would practically end the season, and be a squandrance (is that a word, jloome?) of his last chance at credibility.

July 27th should be a good test.

Yes and yes!

[ag futbol]

Winter wants to use 4-3-3 consistently so when new players are brought in such as Frings and Koevermans they will simply drop them into the system. If we had not been playing 4-3-3 all year due x amount of players who do not have the technical ability to play it, then suddenly our two new DP's show up and magically everyone on the team is supposed to switch to 4-3-3 and know their roles?

This season was, is, and will be a re-build. Not trying to squeak out results with what we have for the sake of a few points. We are building a team to play 4-3-3 the way Winter and deKlerk have been teaching it in Holland.

This isn't just about playing 4-3-3, it's about the tactical adjustments we need to make on the field, which any team will have to focus on. There are a lot of different ways to play that one formation.

As an example: The space between our midfield and backline against NY was a huuuuge problem (that's not a difficult issue for a professional soccer player to understand BTW). We got burned several times and there were simply no adjustments as the game wore on. I can understand losing individual battles to a more talented team, what i can't understand is seeing correctable problems and not addressing them.

TFC is never going to be "that" team which possess so much talent they can just play their game and everybody else adjusts. There's too much central tenancy in MLS and you have to make small tweaks to your game plan depending on your opposition. So two DP's and a supposedly revamped roster later TFC is still going to have to do the little things to be successful.

[CSO_BBTB]

....If we had not been playing 4-3-3 all year due x amount of players who do not have the technical ability to play it, then suddenly our two new DP's show up and magically everyone on the team is supposed to switch to 4-3-3 and know their roles?

The marketing boys have a lot to answer for with their "total football" sales pitch. Where do people get this idea that the team is playing some weird exotic system? Right now TFC are basically playing a 4-2-3-1. That's not so far away from what John Carver was doing three seasons ago (Edu, Robinson base of the midfield triangle with Guevara at it's point, Robert on the left, Ricketts on the right and Dichio doing the target man thing up front) but with more emphasis placed on maintaining possession and being able to patiently switch the point of attack rather than a early speculative long ball launched in the general direction of Dichio. The heavy reliance on early long balls under Carver set TFC apart from the norm in MLS, while Winter's insistence that his defenders be able to pass the ball about a bit is closer to the mainstream. The team is struggling right now primarily because of injuries to key players and misguided player personnel decisions by previous coaching/GM regimes.

___________
Any reference to "we" means the same thing it did on Simon's board five years ago (i.e. TFC in general or the entire TFC support).

[ExiledRed]

The marketing boys have a lot to answer for with their "total football" sales pitch. Where do people get this idea that the team is playing some weird exotic system? Right now TFC are basically playing a 4-2-3-1. That's not so far away from what John Carver was doing three seasons ago (Edu, Robinson base of the midfield triangle with Guevara at it's point, Robert on the left, Ricketts on the right and Dichio doing the target man thing up front) but with more emphasis placed on maintaining possession and being able to patiently switch the point of attack rather than a early speculative long ball launched in the general direction of Dichio. The heavy reliance on early long balls under Carver set TFC apart from the norm in MLS, while Winter's insistence that his defenders be able to pass the ball about a bit is closer to the mainstream. The team is struggling right now primarily because of injuries to key players and misguided player personnel decisions by previous coaching/GM regimes.

___________
Any reference to "we" means the same thing it did on Simon's board five years ago (i.e. TFC in general or the entire TFC support).

In many ways I agree, and the talk reminds me a lot of how difficult it was for MLS players to play 3-5-2 in Mo Johnstons first few games. I was exasperated that people felt that professional footballers couldnt adapt to that system then.

Im not sure however that the players are comfortable with the approach, or whether the coach is able to communicate this system of play effectively to the players. They seem frustrated at times, and sometimes I suspect the reason we lapse after 25 minute bursts of quality are often because those bursts are the result of specific player's creativity, and not because of tactical adjustments or adaptation to the other team. Is it possible that these bursts end when winter regains control?

For instance, go back to the Adrian Cann at right back thing. Other than the downed fighter pilot interview that peceded it, it was kind of obvious that Winter was using the match to attempt to force him to learn to do things he cant do very well, like move out of position and cover for the other player.

The move stunk and could well have cost us the game. I think the experiment was unnecessary and embarassed a local player who needed less scrutiny at the time. Half a season later I still cant see that such experimentation with low quality players that effectively turned this into a season of meaningless friendlies has done much to improve the shape or form of the squad, or any evidence that this regime is teaching the system effectively enough.

So yeah, abandoning the system might inded be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but Winter has still to prove he can implement it. Hopefully like you say, these Dp's can save his blushes, and not mine.

[CSO_BBTB]

From what I remember Mo's biggest problem initially was finding out the hard way (this will make me popular on the Voyageurs board ) just how crap players on the fringes of CMNT selection can be sometimes i.e. Reda, Braz and to a lesser extent Pozniak. Was shocked by that myself so can't really knock Mo too much on putting all his eggs in that particular basket in defence terms. I only have hazy recollections of the 2007 Charleston tournament now (Sutton being stellar in goal in one game and Asante being chronically bad in centre mid are what mainly comes to mind most) but think Braz as a wingback was an obvious issue due to his relative lack of pace. The way that Mo was able to make the trades for Wynne, Marshall and Goldthwaite to stabilize a potentially catastrophic situation was what helped him hang around after season one.

Pro level players should be able to quickly get their heads around the concept of 3-5-2 without any problem. No argument on that because it's a very easy formation to grasp. The problem was that by 2007 it was a bit of a busted flush because other teams knew how to make life very difficult for teams that stuck rigidly to a 3-5-2 by that point. There's a reason you don't see too many teams using that formation nowadays. One of the reasons for the (re)emergence of 4-3-3/4-5-1 was that 3-5-2 works best when the opponent has two central strikers. I missed out on a lot of the late preseason and early season stuff in part because tracking down my next meal was the number one priority a lot of the time being in a natural disaster area and far from fully fluent in the local language. Maybe my opinion of Winter would be somewhat different if that portion of the season had been the source of my first impressions.

___________
Any reference to "we" means the same thing it did on Simon's board five years ago (i.e. TFC in general or the entire TFC support).

[ensco]

think Braz as a wingback was an obvious issue due to his relative lack of pace

So....how are you feeling about Soolsma?

I wonder if Soolsma is the slowest wing in the league. I think he must be.