As For DeGuz, I wasn't really judging Winter directly based on DeGuz other than DeGuz has probably regressed even further under Winter. What I was mainly judging DeGuz on is if he cannot perform to a high standard in a team with three DP's and a midfield partner who has 80 odd caps for Germany then surely he has and no one else should have any excuses left for him, I dont really understand why you are taking anything different from what i am meaning?Originally Posted by Couchy81
Moderator
I don't think JDG has regressed under Winter. He looks pretty much the same as last year to me.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
I obviously share the same concerns as torontocelt. Neither of us are ignoring the fact that the team at Winter's disposal is not good enough or incomplete. BUT that should not take either Winter or Mariner off the hook and I think that is where the headscratching comes from on our side. A GOOD coach takes what he has and "endures" until reinforcements arrive. That's what Arena did with the Galaxy when he arrived and his best players were not available till mid-summer. And then you have the argument that the team was incomplete not because of any other reason but Winter and Mariner themselves. They did not need to start the year undertalented nor understaffed. It was not necessary for the "rebuild". In my opinion, they "wear" this poor record themselves, nobody else.
...but they still would have been undertalented had they kept Preki-era holdovers, and those players would like have been pylons on the practice pitch.
Seriously, having Hscanovics, Saric, Usanov, Gala, Ibrahim, Garcia, Gomez and OBW wouldn't have made this year any less difficult.
The only old faces that could have helped are Barrett and LaBrocca.
I agree with the idea that the club needed to be stripped down and put back together with the right pieces - or at least with players who looked like the right pieces.
Guys like Soolsma, Martina, Zavarise aren't the long term answer, but they are at least capable of playing as they are supposed to within Winter's system. I don't believe any of the players released (again, besides Barrett and LaBrocca) met that standard.
Translation they should have kept DeRosario and given him the DP money Koevermans is getting. The reality is probably that events prior to the arrival of the new management team had created an atmosphere where that would have been highly problematic. Time to move on now surely? For better or worse the future now revolves around Frings and Koevermans and the new regime will stand and fall based on what happens next season once the remaining holdover contract commitments have expired (and some of the more marginal signings that had to be rushed this season have been waived) freeing up money to significantly upgrade the supporting cast.
^^^^THIS!
The new FO should/will be judged on its 2nd year squad and results. And I love what they're putting together. The quality of player that has been brought in is truly impressive and I have great faith that they will find more great value to play alongside:
Gordon
Plata
Eckersley
Frings
Koevermans
Tchani
Williams
Those are all new faces and like that list; depending on how you rate Borman he could be on that list as well. Don't forget we can expect another addition to the backline in July... and I think I believe something coming from TFC FO for the first time in 5 years.
Compare that list to any list of players acquired by Mo and tell me how they stack up.
Give this group until next season, they clearly have a plan and are sticking to it.
Well at the moment he cannot even get a game due to 'his injury' so I would say he has regressed. We can definitely state he has not improved anyway and good managers should be able to get more out of their players.
If the player doesn't want to play and has investigated buying himself out there are more factors to consider than management ability.
Nope. Not at all. I would gladly have accepted the DeRo trade PRIOR to the beginning of the season so long as other players were brought in at the same time, not after we've pretty much written off the season. I'd appreciate it if you guys stop insinuating things that are not true.
And bringing in players when our season wasn't already in the tank is exactly why I think judging current management solely on "next year" is a cop-out. Yes they should be judged on next year but giving them a free pass on this year is ludicrous because it was unecessary.
Last edited by Roogsy; 07-01-2011 at 10:00 PM.
I have never read anything about DeGuz not wanting to play or indeed buying himself out of his contract, where is the proof of this? Either way DeGuz has dropped even more in value this season, Winter has not been able to improve him as a player, not at all.
The summer is window is when the best deals are to be had in Europe on high profile Bosman free transfers because that's when most contracts expire. Better to wait and get the best available options if it means a poor season followed by two good ones rather than rushing into the international transfer market and getting three more mediocre seasons.
I'm not sticking up for Mo but he wasn't allowed one DP in his team as a coach. As a GM type he did get one DP, Mariner / Winter now have three. It does kind of twist your claim a bit. On top of that Mo did sign Dichio, Robinson, Frei, even Jimmy B was decent enough. He was also able to flog Edu for quite big money and signed DeRo. Each of the managers have signed some decent talent, Winter has had a lot of financial backing now so his list should indeed look better.
I am very glad John Barnes wasn't given time to be judged on a second year at celtic and I think Rangers fans were very glad Paul LeGuen wasn't given a second year at Ibrox before he was judged.
And I think we are all glad the same chance wasn't given to Preki
Once we got Klinnsman in town to help re-tool the future I decided to give them the benefit of the doubt for this season at a minimum. Hopefully we will see the fruits of this sooner rather than later, but I still think it would have taken nothing short of a miracle for anyone to come into this team post-Mo and make the playoffs with one transfer window.
But people like me weren't expecting playoffs. We just wanted a competitive team that showed some heart not the turd sandwich we've seen so far this season. Blown out 6-2 at home? Winless for extended periods of time, and the only wins coming against the two expansion teams? If we sat in 11th or 12th I wouldn't be so unhappy. But among the worst in MLS? That's just not acceptable and I have yet to see justification why rebuilding also means sucking.
All this "Frings is the centerpiece of the new strategy" talk leaves me cold.
Signing Frings is a huge roll of the dice. Maybe he's Angel or Schelotto, maybe he's Denilson or JDG.
Even Winter and Mariner don't know what they're getting with Frings. There's no predictor about how a foreign stud works out in this league.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
I have gone on record as saying that I thought this club (prior to the signing of Frings and Koevermans) was talented enough to earn one of the last playoff spots this season. Unfortunately, the club is well off that pace at this point of the season, but I would love to see what the roster is capable of if our regular starters are healthy for an extended period of time. It's not necessarily an excuse, but TFC's roster has been absolutely decimated by injuries this season.
Last edited by ManUtd4ever; 07-01-2011 at 10:31 PM.
There's no comparison between what happens with the Old Firm and in MLS. If the Old Firm had to operate on the same salary cap as clubs like Hearts and Kilmarnock they wouldn't be able to simply buy success based on having a much larger salary budget than their rivals and life would not be as simple as ditching the coach every time there is a slight dip in form.
Strawman argument. His argument has nothing to do with the Old Firm's financial advantage over other SPL teams. His argument is solely directed at a team's expediency in realizing when a coach is out of his depth.
We have been competitive, we have 3 wins and 9 ties out of 19 games. We've gotten points in 12 of 19 games. I know what you're saying though.
These numbers you claim as a positive are terrible.
On a points per game basis we are the 3rd worst team in the league. There is no positive way to spin that.
Roogsy said he wanted a competitive team, earning points in 12 of 19 is competitive in my eyes. Doesn't mean I'm overjoyed about it.
Celtic and Rangers are stable, and historic teams, that they can afford to drop a coach quickly if it's not working out. Same with Liverpool this year with Hodgson.
Prior to Le Guen, McLeish was at Rangers for 5-6 years, and prior to Hodgson, Liverpool had stability with Benitez.
I'd argue if Winter was TFC's 2nd coach as opposed to it's 6th, Winter likely wouldn't be here. But given the fact that the biggest thing that's needed in TFC is stability, the best thing to do is wait it out.
The more coaches you go through, the more difficult it will be to attract the next coach. What coach wants to come to an organization where, if he makes a misstep he doesn't know if he has the confidence of the FO or has to watch his back?
I am sorry Habs, that does not say competitive to me. Especially when you dig deeper and look at game stats. For example, we won our last game and I will take an ugly win any day, but we were outplayed by Vancouver's B squad. What was our possession number in that game? And we're supposed to be playing a possession system. Our goal stats are horrendous. Worst differential in the league. One of the worst goals per game. And Frei is facing more shots than almost any keeper in the league.
I am sorry, but we have not been competitive. Hopefully the new players coming in give us something worth cheering about. But my disappointment also comes in the form that had we brought these guys in while sitting in 12th we might see playoffs. And I have to question whether a better coach would get more out of these guys than Winter will, making their signings dubious if the coach won't be able to use them to their max potential.
Moderator
Agreed, Vic. It's also far easier to determine the abilities of a coach, when they are largely unencumbered by extensive transfer and salary restrictions.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
arguably, TFC ended up playing the "B" squad vs Vancouver too...
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
I don't disagree. And we got the win. But more out of luck than anything. In essence our B squad was outplayed by their B squad. Our A squad was outplayed in Vancouver against their A squad. And before we were rained out, our A squad was en route to losing the NCC after being outplayed here. All this against an expansion team. And regardless if we manage to hold them off tomorrow, my point is that we can hardly call ourselves competitive if those are our results against an expansion side. That's all I am saying.
I guess we have a different definition of what being competitive means. To me getting points in 2 out of every 3 games is competitive. Is tying a game not being competitive in that game? It's not converting some of those ties into wins that's killing us. Sometimes you win when you don't deserve to and sometimes you lose when you don't deserve to. You can't really say any of the points we have obtained this year have been unwarranted? We have however given up points when we probably deserved to win (chicago game etc.) I agrre with you about the goal differential, when we lose we do it in style, like getting clobbered in the philly game and giving up 4 to vancouver in the opener. I think if we had a somewhat healthy lineup this year, especially Gordon, we probably would have 4 or 5 extra points up until this point. That's why I am not totally surprised by our standing and my willingness to give winter the benefit of the doubt.
Last edited by habstfc; 07-01-2011 at 11:53 PM.
you are incredibly negative, no matter what Winter or MLSE does - you obviously never agreed with the Winter hiring and all you see, be it DeRo etc. is negative, negative, negative....
Winter/Mariner/MLSE made some bold moves this week that show direction and the willingness to spend in the Frings & Koevermans signing and the specific comments that more is to come.
we have 3 DPs and direction - you may not agree with the coach/management or direction - OBVIOUSLY, OBVIOUSLY, OBVIOUSLY....but this is where we're going and quite frankly i am happy that someone is taking the reigns - i am willing, as i stated and many others, to give this management team this season to pull it together - you may believe in the quick "MLS" immediate fix it/turn around but i do not. i would much rather have a system/style developed from the grass-routes up that produces year after year than a "MacDonald's" style immediate gratification solution...
does this discussion have to go on ad infinitum?
Until results come, pretty much yeah.
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