Do you think MLS intervened in the DeRo trade?

[ensco]

The McBride comparison doesn't really work because he wasn't playing for TFC, so we could piss him off, not trade him, etc and it wouldn't affect our team. Houston wasn't in the same position.

Let just assume that Houston refused to play ball. They would have an expensive, unhappy player on their team and the reputation of screwing over their players....

This is a good point. It's not the fact that they moved him, it's what they got back that mystifies me (I hear you re McBride being different).

When Brett Favre or Eric Lindros tried to pick the teams they moved to, they got told to buzz off. Different sports, different everything, I know, but it's how markets for players work - teams have a duty to maximize value in these circumstances, not recognize long-term loyalty.

I still think that something is going on here that doesn't quite add up. JJ is the equivalent of a bag of balls in MLS trade value terms.

I'll stop now.

[Stugatzo]

Wow. Was there a second shooter too?

It's all about the grassy knowle...or is it the Beyonce Knowles??

[JonO]

Ensco - one more point: Barrett was not highly rated when he came here. A lot of Chicago fans were laughing at the trade (sound familiar?)

[Roogsy]

^ This is true. Mo wanted Rolfe and Chicago wasn't willing to give him up. Because MLS wanted the deal done, we had to settle for Barrett, who has been a solid pick up in my opinion.

[rocker]

Ensco - one more point: Barrett was not highly rated when he came here. A lot of Chicago fans were laughing at the trade (sound familiar?)

Chicago fans loved his effort. They just said he couldn't finish. And in the end, he scored about as much in Toronto as he did in Chicago.
I guess he just had less baggage here.

[Leafs 92/93]

Dero obviously went to management and said trade me or you'll get nothing when I leave.

As for coming to Toronto, I bet he's nursing a very tiny injury that was no problem in Houston, but will be his nagging downfall this season and the next on the tretcherous toronto turf. If there is one thing Toronto sports teams are good at, it's ruining good players.

[Jack]

Dero obviously went to management and said trade me or you'll get nothing when I leave.

As for coming to Toronto, I bet he's nursing a very tiny injury that was no problem in Houston, but will be his nagging downfall this season and the next on the tretcherous toronto turf. If there is one thing Toronto sports teams are good at, it's ruining good players.

That's for sure!

Wendel Clark...ruined!

Doug Gilmour...ruined!

Vince Carter...ruined!

Roy Halladay...ruined!

Chris Bosh...ruined!

Curtis Joseph...ruined!

Roberto Alomar...ruined!

and if you want a TFC example...we really ruined the hell out of Amado Guevara!

[Flipityflu]

Chicago fans loved his effort. They just said he couldn't finish. And in the end, he scored about as much in Toronto as he did in Chicago.
I guess he just had less baggage here.

i wouldn't under-estimate the work he's had with Winsper. i think that will have a great effect on his goal tally simply by being able to play with energy for 90 minutes. we have already seen him increase his stamina as the season progressed. sometimes, its the simple things that make a difference.

[rocker]

i wouldn't under-estimate the work he's had with Winsper. i think that will have a great effect on his goal tally simply by being able to play with energy for 90 minutes. we have already seen him increase his stamina as the season progressed. sometimes, its the simple things that make a difference.

ya, that will. But what i was talking about is that in Chicago they grew frustrated with him not because he couldn't play 90 minutes but because he couldn't finish scoring chances.. There are youtube highlight reels of him blowing the easiest chances.. He blew some of those here too, although I don't think he had quite as many of those opportunities in toronto to draw attention to himself.
His hustle, which Chicago fans loved, was still there in toronto.

[ensco]

We should do a Barrett thread at some point. He really is an interesting case. He was picked 3rd overall, came into MLS with a lot of hype, and there were huge expectations for the guy.

He definitely showed some ability/promise once he came over. He played well with Dichio, which Cunny never did/could. But is Barrett really a reliable 15 goal scorer? Can he be the striker on a championship team? I think the answer is, probably no.....

(I agree with those who say his value at the time of the deal was about the same as JJ's was in the DeRo trade - of course Chicago also gave up an a first rounder, which we didn't, Barrett was more of a "throw in" in the McBride deal, in my mind....which is the heart of my argument in this thread....but I digress)

[Beach_Red]

We should do a Barrett thread at some point. He really is an interesting case. He was picked 3rd overall, came into MLS with a lot of hype, and there were huge expectations for the guy.

He definitely showed some ability/promise once he came over. He played well with Dichio, which Cunny never did/could. But is Barrett really a reliable 15 goal scorer? Can he be the striker on a championship team? I think the answer is, probably no.....

(I agree with those who say his value at the time of the deal was about the same as JJ's was in the DeRo trade - of course Chicago also gave up an a first rounder, which we didn't, Barrett was more of a "throw in" in the McBride deal, in my mind....which is the heart of my argument in this thread....but I digress)

Yes, you're right, we should have a Barrett thread, maybe a poll, how many will he score this year. I say 15. And 15 a year for a few more years to come. And yes, he will be on a championship team, TFC.

Barrett impressed me as a guy who expected as much hustle from everyone else as he does from himself. And he gives himself as much shit for not producing as he does other guys.

As for the trade, you know, life is timing. It's all about what's 'the best' within the time frame allowed. With one game left in the season heading for the playoffs Houston would've laughed long and hard at JJ and allocation money for DeRo. A quick exit from the playoffs and watching other teams getting better and they were suddenly motivated. It'll be interesting to see what they do next.

[jloome]

Can you elaborate on this? I've never seen this anywhere.....

The player's union has challenged it twice in court under U.S. anti-trust legislation. It has lost both times, with one of the primary arguments the league used successfully being it was never multiple entities colluding; that argument is a lot easier for a court to accept, I think you'd agree, when the majority of players affected by the decision do not have domestic alternatives that would, on average, lead to higher wage demands. No competition (wage-wise) equals no anti-trust.

With USL's average money still being below MLS, the only players who can easily argue that single entity restricts their ability to maximize their incomes are the ones in a position to go overseas with ease, in effect eliminating the domesticity of the market as a consideration. Take that argument, then go back over the last few years and look at the players the league has "accomodated." Every one of them either played overseas already, or has had significant ongoing interest: McBride, Ruiz, Donovan, and now DeRo.

So I'd suggest this "flexibility" has a lot to do with a league-wide accepted policy of not making waves with players who have some latituide. If that's MLS interfering, then I agree with you. But we coudl also assume that Houston, knowing this, didn't even have to go to head office to get a ruling. It just assumed the standard would hold true.

[jloome]

We should do a Barrett thread at some point. He really is an interesting case. He was picked 3rd overall, came into MLS with a lot of hype, and there were huge expectations for the guy.

He definitely showed some ability/promise once he came over. He played well with Dichio, which Cunny never did/could. But is Barrett really a reliable 15 goal scorer? Can he be the striker on a championship team? I think the answer is, probably no.....

I'd also disagree with this, even though it's currently true. The guy is only 23. He's taken the route most developing strikers take of incremental improvement. That's why most, even the best, aren't seen as peaking before 27 or 28.

Let's look at this objectively:
• He creates chances, but blows a lot of them. But nine goals (and eight the year before, I believe) still put him in the top 10 in the league in scoring and he's only 23. He went from one goal, to eight goals, to nine goals. Is it a stretch to say he might have 10 or 11 next season if that trend continues? No. Could we then expect that, as he hits the prime of his career, he'll finish even more of those chances. Maybe.
• He has a good second gear. Once he has space, he can blow by defenders.
• HE can shoot with extreme power. In fact, so much that reigning in his shot would probably lead to more of those misses winding up in the net.
• He actually scored more for a team -- us -- that forced its frontmen to create their own chances due to poor play than for a team -- Chicago-- with some of the best setup men in Blanco and Mapp in the league.

The skill is there. In fact, he was very dangerous at times at creating space, which is why he also had seven assists -- a contribution that can't be overlooked. In fact, if he only ever wound up scoring 10 and chipping in six or seven assists, he would be a major offensive threat by MLS standards, and that's only one point more than he contributed to this year.

The question is whether he has the head for improvement; perhaps he needs kid gloves: after all, he'd never had the fitness-level to go a whole game before getting to Toronto, which indicates his trainers weren't paying attention. Can he learn to take open one-one-one chances and bury them in the lower corner, instead of blasting the ball wide and high repeatedly?

[ensco]

The player's union has challenged it twice in court under U.S. anti-trust legislation. It has lost both times, with one of the primary arguments the league used successfully being it was never multiple entities colluding; that argument is a lot easier for a court to accept, I think you'd agree, when the majority of players affected by the decision do not have domestic alternatives that would, on average, lead to higher wage demands. No competition (wage-wise) equals no anti-trust.

With USL's average money still being below MLS, the only players who can easily argue that single entity restricts their ability to maximize their incomes are the ones in a position to go overseas with ease, in effect eliminating the domesticity of the market as a consideration. Take that argument, then go back over the last few years and look at the players the league has "accomodated." Every one of them either played overseas already, or has had significant ongoing interest: McBride, Ruiz, Donovan, and now DeRo.

So I'd suggest this "flexibility" has a lot to do with a league-wide accepted policy of not making waves with players who have some latituide. If that's MLS interfering, then I agree with you. But we coudl also assume that Houston, knowing this, didn't even have to go to head office to get a ruling. It just assumed the standard would hold true.

Thanks. That is very interesting. The implication of this is that the league has to be far more involved in trades that involve significant players than it would be in any other sport.

I'd take issue with the characterization of DeRo (today) as a player with significant options away from MLS, btw....two years ago, maybe even one year ago, that's a different story

[jloome]

Thanks. That is very interesting. The implication of this is that the league has to be far more involved in trades that involve significant players than it would be in any other sport.

I'd take issue with the characterization of DeRo (today) as a player with significant options away from MLS, btw....two years ago, maybe even one year ago, that's a different story

I guess the issue is often reality versus perception; while there's no doubt he was going to have work-permit problems for Blackburn or Man City (the two most interested) he also has the Scandinavian fall back, as Copenhagen were looking at pairing him up with Atiba in the midfield. So that might have kept him in that loop as well.

[TorCanSoc]

This is one of those league involvement questions that never seemed to get answered.

On the subject of DeRo. He's going to have a world of pressure on him, like he's never seen before that's for sure. He had some pressure on him during the World Cup, but must of it went onto DeGuzman and he was quality throughout.... dammit if his ringer off the cross-bar during the Jamaica game went in... it could've all been different... but I digress.

I've followed DeRo since his Lynx days. Its a spectacular day for him to come here. But man he's going to have to deliver right out of the gate. I'd say in our soccer community, he's got as much pressure on him to deliver as a Mats Sundin ever did. And knowing DeRo, knowing his skill, knowing the smile on face when he first steps out onto BMO with a red shirt on... he's going to tear the league a new A-Hole !!! I think he's going to double his Houston goals ouput, 7 goals. I expect 10 goals for sure.

[BuSaPuNk]

^ I agree with that. You would be amazed how he is going to play infront of his hometown fans. He is going to be on fire when he puts that red shirt on him. Is it just be or is just the thought of DeRo coming out on the pitch in the TFC red give you goosebumps??

[Jack]

I guess the issue is often reality versus perception; while there's no doubt he was going to have work-permit problems for Blackburn or Man City (the two most interested) he also has the Scandinavian fall back, as Copenhagen were looking at pairing him up with Atiba in the midfield. So that might have kept him in that loop as well.

Wouldn't he qualify based on his international appearances? Or is Canada ranked too low?

[jloome]

Wouldn't he qualify based on his international appearances? Or is Canada ranked too low?

It isn't now, but it was when they were inquiring after him.

[Oldtimer]

Dero obviously went to management and said trade me or you'll get nothing when I leave.

Not true. Houston would continue to hold his MLS rights even when his contract runs out. The only way they'd get nothing is if he went overseas.
Let's give some credit to Mo for getting a good deal. He's done it before.

[Steve]

Not true. Houston would continue to hold his MLS rights even when his contract runs out. The only way they'd get nothing is if he went overseas.
Let's give some credit to Mo for getting a good deal. He's done it before.

Agreed. I don't think the league had anything to do with this. Here is the situation:

You have one team who just came off 2 MLS Cup wins, then didn't make it to the final. Kinnear looks at his roster, sees that his core group is either aging, or looking to move on, and has to make a choice. Does he keep on pushing for the cup, or does he enter into a rebuilding phase (not at all uncommon in north american pro sports, especially with the draft and the salary cap). Obviously his choice is to start rebuilding, put some pressure on the young kids, and hopefully put a core group together that will challenge for the cup in 3-5 years again. So, in order to do that he has to move DeRo (a very expensive player and, at 30 years old, one not likely to be part of the next generation of Dynamo players).

This is where dealing savy comes in. DeRo is expensive. Expensive contracts are always going to be difficult to move, but DeRo is also a legend in the league, so Kinnear thinks he has some good cards to deal. Which is where the other shoe falls. It's not a secret that DeRo wants to play for Toronto. This makes him too expensive for most teams to take a chance on (why trade for a player that doesn't want to play for you? We've done it, and it's kind of hit and miss). That's when Mo steps in. Mo is smart, he knows that he has the upper hand (something not all managers would keep in mind when faced with the prospect of attaining a star player you've had your eye on for 2 years). Instead of offering Kinnear a blank cheque (as I'm sure most people on the board would have done) he gives him enough of what Kinnear needs to make it worthwhile (money and a young prospect) but ONLY that amount. Mo knew full well that Kinnear couldn't afford to turn down the offer, because there wouldn't be another one from any other team. He takes it, and Mo comes out looking like a genius (or, as some of you would have it, MLS made the deal happen and Mo did nothing but collect a paycheque).

What you have to understand is how Mo works. He NEVER overpays for someone. Even if that player is someone he's always wanted, he will not make a move until the player is on sale. Is that a good thing? Well, that's up for debate. On one hand, it puts us into situations where we have a weak roster, and he doesn't do anything to help it because other managers sense we are weak, and so try to gouge us. On the other hand, he is slowly building the team he wants, while hording resources. 800k in allocation and 3 first round draft picks are nothing to hold your hose at. Personally, I think he's a great MLS manager, he just needs a full time scout for international talent.

[giambac]

It just seems to be weird. No one believes how little Houston got back for him. Check on bigsoccer and Ives - unbiased opinion is running 99% against the move from a Houston standpoint.

Don't you think a contender would have given up more than we did for him?

It's not really important that DeRo wanted to come here. Lots of guys want to be traded to their hometown. DeRo had no leverage, as there is no real free agency in MLS - DeRo would not have been able to just sign with TFC in 2010.

But from a league marketing point of view, this accomplishes something important. DeRo makes a difference in Toronto, just like McBride belongs in Chicago. (While I'm on this, is this some kind of quid-pro-quo for making the McBride thing happen?). Because of the single entity system, the league has an ability to intervene in player movement in ways you'd never see in other sports.

I suspect this was something the league office orchestrated, as they did with Ruiz in LA and McBride in Chicago. Just a hunch. If I'm right, Houston will get a player, or something else, for less than market value down the line.

Absolutely 100% guarantee they intervened. People who think otherwise are ignorant.

Listen take it for what it is. TFC got a very good player and that is the bottom line. The league did intervene just as they did with McBride. I have no problem with that.

I do find it funny on who people on this forum have double standers. When the MLS interfered with MCBride they weere crying foul. Now they try and ignore the issue.

When the refs made bad calls against TFC they cried foul and argued the world was against us. Then when we got favourable calls for us they didn't say anything.

We have to take it both ways. The league came in and helped us on this deal. Accept it.

[Roogsy]

Absolutely 100% guarantee they intervened. People who think otherwise are ignorant.

Listen take it for what it is. TFC got a very good player and that is the bottom line. The league did intervene just as they did with McBride. I have no problem with that.

I do find it funny on who people on this forum have double standers. When the MLS interfered with MCBride they weere crying foul. Now they try and ignore the issue.

When the refs made bad calls against TFC they cried foul and argued the world was against us. Then when we got favourable calls for us they didn't say anything.

We have to take it both ways. The league came in and helped us on this deal. Accept it.

LOL!

And your proof is?

[Jack]

Absolutely 100% guarantee they intervened. People who think otherwise are ignorant.

Listen take it for what it is. TFC got a very good player and that is the bottom line. The league did intervene just as they did with McBride. I have no problem with that.

I do find it funny on who people on this forum have double standers. When the MLS interfered with MCBride they weere crying foul. Now they try and ignore the issue.

When the refs made bad calls against TFC they cried foul and argued the world was against us. Then when we got favourable calls for us they didn't say anything.

We have to take it both ways. The league came in and helped us on this deal. Accept it.

Wow...Giambac with the inside scoop!

What's your source?

[GabrielHurl]

Giambac is Don Garber

[Beach_Red]

We have to take it both ways. The league came in and helped us on this deal. Accept it.

This would be the fastest and the quietest the league ever did anything. Why didn't this take a month like the McBride deal? Why were there no rumours, offers and counter offers? We all know what TFC was demanding in the McBride deal and Chicago wouldn't give up - Knapp or Rolfe, right? So, who was Houston asking for that we wouldn't give up? How has that been kept secret?

When did this league suddenly go from Get Smart to James Bond?

This wasn't such a terrible deal for Houston, it was a salary dump, it was about money. They're coming off back-to-back championships and an early exit from the playoffs. They've got to rebuild and they've got a couple years to do it because of those championships. Now they've got money to spend and cap space to do it with.

Chicago should still be pissed, but Houston did fine.

[Jack]

That, plus Houston has a young up-and-comer who will slot into DeRo's spot.

Giambac needs to put his tinfoil hat back on.

[Beach_Red]

That, plus Houston has a young up-and-comer who will slot into DeRo's spot.

Giambac needs to put his tinfoil hat back on.

Well, like a lot of people, he may simply look at TFC and not take into account much about the other teams in this league.

[ensco]

Well, I started this. For me, when Paul more or less said that the league directing DeRo to us is a wacky conspiracy theory, that settled it for me.

That said, I think there are dynamics here that we can't see. Maybe they'll come out some day. I don't care what Houston's objectives/situation is, and the deal dynamics were, the price was absurdly low for a 30 year old star, even if he had a sub-par year.

[ensco]

What you have to understand is how Mo works. He NEVER overpays for someone. Even if that player is someone he's always wanted, he will not make a move until the player is on sale. Is that a good thing? Well, that's up for debate. On one hand, it puts us into situations where we have a weak roster, and he doesn't do anything to help it because other managers sense we are weak, and so try to gouge us. On the other hand, he is slowly building the team he wants, while hording resources. 800k in allocation and 3 first round draft picks are nothing to hold your hose at. Personally, I think he's a great MLS manager, he just needs a full time scout for international talent.

This is an interesting theory about how Mo operates. Although I doubt that Friday was the first time he and Kinnear discussed DeRo to TFC.

btw, I love the idea of "holding your hose" at things!