Expansion draft

[Lucky Strike]

IMO, Smith is a much more talented and promising player than Lombardo.

That said, it was probably the best outcome from the expansion draft we could have hoped for.

Reality is, Jarrod Smith is an International player, actual professional coaches see something in him. I'm not sure why people are so overly negative around here.

There's a slight bit of discontinuity but I hear what you're saying. What's happening is that:

1. People are extremely glad to not have lost a player like Ricketts, Jo Smith (who I guess we can just call Smith now), Sutton and Attakora.

2. Thus, indirectly, it means that we're glad that Seattle picked Ja Smith so it can often seem like we're making him out to be worse than he was.

P.S. Depending on whether Mo was going to get rid of Ja Smith, we can decide whether it was the best outcome. Because if Ja Smith was going to be let go, then yes. However, if Mo planned to keep him, the best outcome would have been to have lost no player (or perhaps Ruiz instead).

[Beach_Red]

Robert was more of a Carver thing. Robert was playing well but then just got lazy.

Not all picks are going to work out. But should there be some question as to why Robert started strong and gave up? I know we all hate Cunningham but he did better once he left. Ruiz never even bothered, why not?

Is any of this coaching?

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Could be that those guys just didnt like Carver, it happens, then ya gotta look to Barrett, Velez, Ricketts who would run over to Carver after scoring

[Shaughno]

Could be that those guys just didnt like Carver, it happens, then ya gotta look to Barrett, Velez, Ricketts who would run over to Carver after scoring

Also those players, Ruiz, Robert and Cunny all were semi-problematic in the past. Guevara is really the only problem child that seems to have adapted to Carver. All the rest of the players seem to love Carver.

[ACSertL]

Also those players, Ruiz, Robert and Cunny all were semi-problematic in the past. Guevara is really the only problem child that seems to have adapted to Carver. All the rest of the players seem to love Carver.

Its Winsper they must all hate

[Beach_Red]

Also those players, Ruiz, Robert and Cunny all were semi-problematic in the past. Guevara is really the only problem child that seems to have adapted to Carver. All the rest of the players seem to love Carver.

Yes, as an expansion team it's to be expected there'd be a lot of problem players available. I hope that's one of the things we'll see less of as the team gets more established.

[Steve]

Mulrooney was Dallas' starting MF. In pre-season last year, Mo traded our first rounder in 2008 (plus something I think) for him. Turns out his wife didn't want to come to Toronto or some such. Two games later we traded Mulrooney to Houston for their first rounder and Goldthwaite. Problem is, Houston's pick was 11th overall (if I recall correctly), ours was 2nd overall. No way Goldthwaite/Dunivant was worth sliding from 2nd to 11th in the draft for.

I do agree with your overall point, but I'd like to address this one. So, maybe it was Mo's fault for not checking to make sure Mulrooney would play in Canada, fine, but let's look at the overall effect of this trade (given Mo's first plans were probably ruined, as many plans are, by a damned woman).

We trade our 2nd overall for an 11th overall
We get Dunivant

So, essentially, the question is, is Dunivant worth the difference between a 2nd overall and an 11th overall? Personally, I think he is. I mean, it was unfortunate he got injured, but before that, he was an absolutetly quality defender/midfielder. Our most solid bench player, and could have easily been pushing for the start. He is worth a lot in trade value (due to his domestic status in the states, his versatility, and his relative cheap price tag).

Now, I guess we have to look at the draft choices.

2nd overall: Brek Shea - US MF, 2 apps, 0 goals in the 2008 season (FC Dallas)
11th overall: Roger Espinoza - Honduran MF, 22 apps, 1 goal 2008 season (KC Wiz)

Now, I'm not trying to suggest one is better than the other (Brek is younger) but you have to look at our strategy in the drafts. We cannot afford to pick up real projects. They count as internationals for us. Instead, we need to fill our reserve roster with Canadians (who are likely not in the draft, or will not be chosen by other teams as much). We need to draft players who are either immediately worth something (Edu was, JJ was supposed to be), or have some trade value. Frankly, I would rather have Dunivant on our team than a project like Shea.

Essentially, as a Canadian team, our drafting strategy has to be different than most. Because of this, it will be useful for us to sometimes trade away high picks in order to get proven players. For this year, I don't expect to go into the draft with 3 first rounders (I expect some to be packaged with lower picks to get players, or possible a first rounder put with later pics to get Seattles first pic to secure White).

My one question with the future of the draft is the changes to reserve teams this year. By dropping rosters from 28 to 24, and increasing senior spots to 20 (from 18) you're getting rid of 6 reserve players (from 10 to 4). With that in mind, how many teams are going to have roster space to develop these young kids? I understand the point of trying to save money and such, but doesn't this kill the suplimental draft? Maybe a better solution would be allowing teams to have a reserve roster of like 12 players (with the same salary as current) but forcing the team owners to pay for it? This would be a small concession to larger clubs (allowing them to pay out an extra 100-200k) but would still allow clubs to develop players if they wanted to (without sticking them with 4 total).

[Ossington Mental Youth]

supposedly with the ridding of those 6 spots itll force teams to really really scout players and only bring quality to the league. IMO itll force alot of teams to make hasty decisions as there have been players in the supplemental draft that did waaaaaaay better than the regular draft players. Also itll deminish rosters and fuck alot of canadian players.

[ensco]

So, essentially, the question is, is Dunivant worth the difference between a 2nd overall and an 11th overall? Personally, I think he is.

Both of us had it wrong. It was the 14th overall pick (David Horst to RSL) that we got for Mulrooney and traded to RSL. Doesn't change the discussion much.

We disagree mainly in the assessment of the difference between 2nd and 11th/14th overall. Huge in my opinion. Dallas reached and may have wasted the pick, but that wouldn't change my opinion on the strategy.

Go back and look at the last 5 superdrafts -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_MLS_drafts

Most of the players who've made a name for themselves were taken in the first 5 overall picks - yes there are Altidores out there, but not many.

(An aside - it's interesting how weak the 2007 class turned out to be.)

I like Dunivant's versatility, but it's not clear he's real quality. I expect he will be traded (for the reason you state). I always thought he was going back to the Quakes - the supporters love him out there.

[Steve]

Both of us had it wrong. It was the 14th overall pick (David Horst to RSL) that we got for Mulrooney and traded to RSL. Doesn't change the discussion much.

We disagree mainly in the assessment of the difference between 2nd and 11th/14th overall. Huge in my opinion. Dallas reached and may have wasted the pick, but that wouldn't change my opinion on the strategy.

Go back and look at the last 5 superdrafts -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_MLS_drafts

Most of the players who've made a name for themselves were taken in the first 5 overall picks - yes there are Altidores out there, but not many.

(An aside - it's interesting how weak the 2007 class turned out to be.)

I like Dunivant's versatility, but it's not clear he's real quality. I expect he will be traded (for the reason you state). I always thought he was going back to the Quakes - the supporters love him out there.

That's fair. I'm not saying I've definitely right, but for me, right now, I view Dunivant as more important than that difference. In the long run, you may be right, that's just not by gut feel. I just don't see the draft as being as important to Toronto given our international player restrictions.

As far as Dunivant, I view him as a very solid player. Never a superstar, never someone to stand out, not someone you would kill for, but all around solid. That makes him a great roll player in MLS. If we trade him, I'm sure we'll get quality in return, if we keep him, I'm sure he'll contribute a lot to the team (and not give us too many chances to curse his name).

Edit: And it's true that most players who have gone on to make a name for themselves have been picked in the top 5, but it's by no means a guaruntee. I'd be curious how many of the top 5 in the last 5 years have been successful? Curious enough to actually find out? Who knows...

[Ossington Mental Youth]

i see Dunny as the american Poz, great off the bench but never a starter

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

Not all picks are going to work out. But should there be some question as to why Robert started strong and gave up? I know we all hate Cunningham but he did better once he left. Ruiz never even bothered, why not?

Is any of this coaching?

defended Cunny right to to a few games before he was shipped out,his last couple of games here his work ethic was shite and played like shite
so im glad hes gone. Robert was a good attempt but just didnt work out,
he never looked comfortable on the plastic grass though. Ruiz?? wont be missed next season.

[Nuvinho]

Ives take on the expansion draft

http://www.soccerbyives.net/soccer_b...ion-draft.html

Jarrod Smith (Toronto FC)- There was absolutely no bigger mistake in the expansion draft than taking Smith. Why? Well, for one he was the wrong Smith to take from Toronto (Johann Smith was the right one). Secondly, sources tell me TFC had every intention of waiving Jarrod Smith anyway so Seattle essentially wasted one of its 10 picks on a player it could have claimed off waivers a few hours later. Third, after taking Jaqua did Seattle really need another big forward, particularly one who proved largely ineffective in Toronto?

[rocker]

OK, so Ives confirms the idea that Seattle are dummies as opposed to my suggestion that maybe Mo had some deal worked out with Seattle. TFC were gonna waive Jarrod and then Seattle takes him?? hahah.

[Lucky Strike]

^Many people are still scratching their heads raw on this one...

[Yohan]

I'm seriously wondering if seattle head office made a mistake in names or they got confused

[Beach_Red]

I'm seriously wondering if seattle head office made a mistake in names or they got confused

It has happened before. In 1988 the Calgary Flames drafted a dead guy:

1988 Draft
Round # 7
147 Calgary Stefan Nilsson HV71 Jonkoping (SEL)
Born Feb 19 1968
He passed away in a motor vehicle accident 3 months prior to the draft.
Calgary didn't have a full time scout in Sweden/ Finland
at that time. They didn't know until after the draft that this had happened. Several teams who did have european scouts at that time new full well what they had done.
This is the kid whom the flames wanted:
Picked by Vancouver same draft year.

1988 Draft
Round # 12
233 Vancouver Stefan Nilsson C Troja (Sweden)
Center Born Dec 9 1968
Calgary disputed Vancouvers pick but it was overturned by the NHL becuase the Flames should have utilized proper methods of finding the right information. They made an assumption and drafted the wrong player same name, right kid wrong team.

[jloome]

I suspect Seattle knew who they were getting. I don't think Jarrod Smith, as generally useless to us as he has been, is a bad player. He's laughably nowhere neare Jo Smith's POTENTIAL as a winger.

But Jarrod Smith was a target forward coming out of school; he only actually got a chance to play that position for us a couple of times, and scored on a header. One of the few times he played straight-up as a forward in preseason, he also scored on a header.

His runs were largely effective, he held the ball up well. He doesn't look abundantly skilled, but he may turn out to be a key role player type, or a monstrous scorer of headers. Given that that was Mo's stock in trade (despite his height) you'd think he'd have noticed if Jarrod had the potential, but maybe not.

In other words, they could've done worse.

[Beach_Red]

His runs were largely effective, he held the ball up well. He doesn't look abundantly skilled, but he may turn out to be a key role player type, or a monstrous scorer of headers. Given that that was Mo's stock in trade (despite his height) you'd think he'd have noticed if Jarrod had the potential, but maybe not.

In other words, they could've done worse.

Yes, I suspect you're right and they got who they wanted. I seem to remember another time a player with a similar name was drafted by mstake - I think was also the NHL - but I can't find anything about it.

We did suffer a lot last year from guys missing for international games, so maybe that was a factor in leaving Jarrod unprotected. Jarrod is probably happy, Seattle's a lot closer to home and he may see more playing time.

Unlikely that was a factor in leaving him unprotected, though .

[jloome]

Yes, I suspect you're right and they got who they wanted. I seem to remember another time a player with a similar name was drafted by mstake - I think was also the NHL - but I can't find anything about it.

We did suffer a lot last year from guys missing for international games, so maybe that was a factor in leaving Jarrod unprotected. Jarrod is probably happy, Seattle's a lot closer to home and he may see more playing time.

Unlikely that was a factor in leaving him unprotected, though .

That hockey thing is on another thread here somewhere....

[wzhxvy]

Jarrod Smith is a hamster...comes in...put his head down and runs around aimlessly...I can not believe they picked him. I do not get it...surely a mistake...just must be.

[Big Bruva]

The funny thing is quite a few of the players had no idea about who was protected and who was not lol

Spoke to my cuz and he had no idea till i told him and i spoke to Johann last night and he had no idea what it was all about till i broke it down lol

[James17930]

The funny thing is quite a few of the players had no idea about who was protected and who was not lol

Spoke to my cuz and he had no idea till i told him and i spoke to Johann last night and he had no idea what it was all about till i broke it down lol

Were they pissed off?

[Ossington Mental Youth]

prob not, prob realized they more or less didnt have a choice in the matter and that it wasnt personal

[rocker]

maybe they feel sad knowing they were unwanted

[Big Bruva]

Were they pissed off?

Nah they seemed fine, Ro was asking questions and Johann didn't seem to mind but maybe coz he asked who left and i told him so he obviously knew it was not him

[Big Bruva]

maybe they feel sad knowing they were unwanted

Nah not at all

[StandUpIfYouHateChelsea]

all i gotta say is all the best to Jarrod Smith !!! class guy all the best!!!!!!

[ensco]

The funny thing is quite a few of the players had no idea about who was protected and who was not lol

Spoke to my cuz and he had no idea till i told him and i spoke to Johann last night and he had no idea what it was all about till i broke it down lol

I guess these guys have other things going on in their lives....unlike the rest of us!