Monday Nov 17's News evolved into Single Table/Relegation/Playoffs discussion

[denime]

It's time MLS jumped on board with the rest of the soccer world, adopted relegation and got rid of its ridiculous playoff system

By GARETH WHEELER

Ten wins in 30 games. A goal differential of minus-6. A team with only one road win in the regular season.
Your 2008 MLS Cup winner? It might just be the New York Red Bulls.
After disposing of Real Salt Lake 1-0 Saturday, the Red Bulls' fairy tale playoff run moves on to the MLS Cup against the Columbus Crew on Sunday.
The Crews' credentials speak for themselves: The top team in the league, finishing six points ahead of and winning four more games than any other team. If Columbus wins the MLS Cup, it will be deserved.
If the Red Bulls are victorious in the final, can we really call them the league's best team?
Not a chance!

Read more


Canadian Hume feared the worst
Agence-France Presse

LONDON — Barnsley striker Iain Hume feared he might die after being hospitalised by an elbow from Sheffield United defender Chris Morgan.
Hume, of Brampton, Ont., needed emergency surgery for a fractured skull and internal bleeding after Morgan caught the Canada international with a sickening blow during his Championship club's 2-1 defeat at Oakwell on November 8.
Morgan was only booked for the foul and Hume is furious that referee Andy D'Urso failed to protect him even though he warned the official that Morgan had caught him with his elbow in previous matches.

Read more



Your Questions: Toronto FC head coach John Carver

Curious about Toronto FC's prospects for next season? Wondering who was the team's most valuable player or what head coach John Carver thinks of coaching in North America?
Now's your chance to find out.
CBC Sports will be interviewing Carver next week as part of our pre-show coverage of the MLS Cup final and we want your questions.

Ask Questions


SUNSHINE

[The Kingpin]

NSFW

There ya go JDG...

A step in the right direction....: http://www.page3.com/index3.shtml#main-image

[StandUpIfYouHateChelsea]

good first article , good read

[The Kingpin]

All that needed to be written in the Sun article re: MLS: "It's time MLS got on board with the rest of the world."

Done and Done.

[keem-o-sabi]

pretty much none of that article is ever going to happen. I would agree the playoffs are silly, but there is never going to be promotion/relegation. Unless MLS decides to have a 2nd division where teams pay just as much to join the league. Do you really think MLS owners are coming in paying (40million now) and want to go to USL1 where the owners have to pay a whopping 750k now?

I never have liked the MLS playoff structure, basically because it allows way too many to get in and shortens the season by 3 weeks, especially now that MLS has fixture congestion with all the things they do, those 3 weeks would come in mighty handy.

[Steve]

All that needed to be written in the Sun article re: MLS: "It's time to rehash arguments that have been going on for years"

Done and Done.

fixed.

Also, that article does nothing but show how little knowlege he has of the MLS financial structure. There will never be relegation/promotion. Full stop. It does not, and will not, make sense to the owners. In other systems, the teams themselves are the entities that have to compete for dollars and viewership. That's great and works well when you have, essentially, no competition. In North America we have sporting competition everywhere. That means it is the leagues that are competing with each other for your revenue, not the teams (especially with how difficult it is to switch teams over here because of the distance). What good would it do for the MLS to adopt relegation? All that would happen is we would risk losing top teams from the biggest markets, and gaining teams from smaller markets. Sounds like a great plan, we didn't need fans and television coverage anyway.

[ensco]

Edwards and Barrett didn't make the USMNT roster for Wednesday's game

http://mnt-ussoccer.blogspot.com/200...guatemala.html

[The Kingpin]

fixed.

Also, that article does nothing but show how little knowlege he has of the MLS financial structure. There will never be relegation/promotion. Full stop. It does not, and will not, make sense to the owners. In other systems, the teams themselves are the entities that have to compete for dollars and viewership. That's great and works well when you have, essentially, no competition. In North America we have sporting competition everywhere. That means it is the leagues that are competing with each other for your revenue, not the teams (especially with how difficult it is to switch teams over here because of the distance). What good would it do for the MLS to adopt relegation? All that would happen is we would risk losing top teams from the biggest markets, and gaining teams from smaller markets. Sounds like a great plan, we didn't need fans and television coverage anyway.

You basically don't have it now. Everyone is focusing on the relegation element as this is the simplest to argue. Take on the deep argument and consider first the single schedule and how this would first perpetuate a new idea in North American sport and thus eventually lead to the relegation argument once the mentality has developed. Every good strategy has multiple tiers, this could all work in conjunction withy expansion as has been suggested, once at 16 teams you have a single schedule. That's 30 games of one at ho,e and one away against the whole league. Execute this for a period of time and develop a strategy to have a stronger supporters union and relegate the "soccer mom" strategy and eventually you can implement a two tiered system. This system should (could) include a single promotion/relegation element to start and then move to two teams over time.

It would create interest where there is none and it would prove to be a PR boon as sportscasters just may begin to take notice. Or, we can keep the status quo and have poor attendance at useless playoff games and have two eastern cities playing as east and west... ??? My thoughts anyway...

[denime]

You basically don't have it now. Everyone is focusing on the relegation element as this is the simplest to argue. Take on the deep argument and consider first the single schedule and how this would first perpetuate a new idea in North American sport and thus eventually lead to the relegation argument once the mentality has developed. Every good strategy has multiple tiers, this could all work in conjunction withy expansion as has been suggested, once at 16 teams you have a single schedule. That's 30 games of one at home and one away against the whole league. Execute this for a period of time and develop a strategy to have a stronger supporters union and relegate the "soccer mom" strategy and eventually you can implement a two tiered system. This system should (could) include a single promotion/relegation element to start and then move to two teams over time.

It would create interest where there is none and it would prove to be a PR boon as sportscasters just may begin to take notice. Or, we can keep the status quo and have poor attendance at useless playoff games and have two eastern cities playing as east and west... ??? My thoughts anyway...

Not just yours,many fans think like that and honestly it does make sense to go with single table ones MLS hits 16 teams.

Disclaimer: this is my only opinion

[The Kingpin]

Not just yours,many fans think like that and honestly it does make sense to go with single table ones MLS hits 16 teams.

Disclaimer: this is my only opinion

Hey, can you blame me....

Since I've been putting things like this on the conclusion of my posts, it has tremendously reduced the jagged steel shards thrusting into my chest...

[Steve]

You basically don't have it now. Everyone is focusing on the relegation element as this is the simplest to argue. Take on the deep argument and consider first the single schedule and how this would first perpetuate a new idea in North American sport and thus eventually lead to the relegation argument once the mentality has developed. Every good strategy has multiple tiers, this could all work in conjunction withy expansion as has been suggested, once at 16 teams you have a single schedule. That's 30 games of one at ho,e and one away against the whole league. Execute this for a period of time and develop a strategy to have a stronger supporters union and relegate the "soccer mom" strategy and eventually you can implement a two tiered system. This system should (could) include a single promotion/relegation element to start and then move to two teams over time.

It would create interest where there is none and it would prove to be a PR boon as sportscasters just may begin to take notice. Or, we can keep the status quo and have poor attendance at useless playoff games and have two eastern cities playing as east and west... ??? My thoughts anyway...

Attendence wasn't as poor as some people are saying (aside from NE, but come on, they play in the middle of nowhere, in the cold, on a weeknight, and their fans skew much more towards the "good day out" fans than "I love the sport" fans, so you can't really be surprised).

Here is the problem with your suggestion though, how many lower tier leagues have ever received support in north america? Now, I'm going to go right off and mention college sports, because that doesn't count at all. That pulls from a completely different pool of players, has specific requirements for those players (going to school there), and pulls from the pride of the university. I just don't see a lower division as something that is going to be hugely supported here. That means the teams that are relegated, are going to take a severe hit in their bottom line. So, since the league as a whole is owned by the owners of the teams, who is going to make the decision to add in relegation? Why pay 40 million dollars to get into a league, build a stadium, etc, only to know you could easily be relegated the next year, lose all of your revenue and go broke? That's a terrible gamble to make, and not one I would see any investors going for.

People seem to argue also that relegation will somehow make the game more relevant to the people used to other varieties of soccer. I think they're viewing the league through the eyes of someone living in Toronto. Sorry, but it really isn't the same thing in most other places. Many of the cities with MLS teams in the states don't have a huge European fanbase. And if they did, why watch MLS when you can watch EPL? Also, in most places in the states the biggest league being watched in the MPL. They don't have relegation in the same way you're talking about either.

Essentially, Americans (and all Northern Americans) want their team to have a shot at the title. It's what we're used to. Having a team that can't even compete for the trophy for a year just doesn't sit well. So, one, I don't see the fans reacting well to relegation/promotion, and two, I don't see how it could ever come to be (with the votes all in the hands of people who have absolutely no reason to vote for it). That's why I keep saying it will never happen.

[Fort York Redcoat]

You basically don't have it now. Everyone is focusing on the relegation element as this is the simplest to argue. Take on the deep argument and consider first the single schedule and how this would first perpetuate a new idea in North American sport and thus eventually lead to the relegation argument once the mentality has developed. Every good strategy has multiple tiers, this could all work in conjunction withy expansion as has been suggested, once at 16 teams you have a single schedule. That's 30 games of one at ho,e and one away against the whole league. Execute this for a period of time and develop a strategy to have a stronger supporters union and relegate the "soccer mom" strategy and eventually you can implement a two tiered system. This system should (could) include a single promotion/relegation element to start and then move to two teams over time.

It would create interest where there is none and it would prove to be a PR boon as sportscasters just may begin to take notice. Or, we can keep the status quo and have poor attendance at useless playoff games and have two eastern cities playing as east and west... ??? My thoughts anyway...

It'll never work here. It's just not how we do things here. I'm sorry I couldn't resist.

Why is it that any change is so impossible to so many people here? Like changing a couple a lines on a paper (single table) is just as difficult as restructuring the whole professional sport in NA? Why does dropping the playoff system automatically mean the MLS will be rendered worthless and riddled with USL teams?

World football has different structures from country to country and I don't see any reason to cling to a system that isn't successful when there are so many other successful models.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Attendence wasn't as poor as some people are saying (aside from NE, but come on, they play in the middle of nowhere, in the cold, on a weeknight, and their fans skew much more towards the "good day out" fans than "I love the sport" fans, so you can't really be surprised).

.

How poor does it have to be to see that it doesn't generate extra interest in the teams involved or the league because of how many people move on to one of the more traditional sports here?

[leviticus]

Hey, does anyone know what happened to Jeff Gonsalves? I remember we drafted him and he is even in Football Manager 2008, but haven't seen the kid since then. What about Joseph Lapira? Is he still rummaging through the Norwegian league?

[Mark in Ottawa]

We are talking two types of success here... on field and financial.
They go hand in hand but in North America we have it a bit backwards.
We reward ineptitude on field as long as the $$ keep rolling. This runs the risk of alienating fans but many North American sports leagues seem willing to risk it.

The promotion/relegation system puts the two things in sync. Do well on the field, with the resources you have, and you get promoted and get even more resources.
Mess up with the more resources at your disposal and you get relegated and suffer the resulting downturn in revenue. As a result the management becomes just as responsible as the players do for building and delivering an atmosphere for success.

[flatpicker]

I like the article... I don't know if we are ready for a relegation system yet though.
But certainly, we need to stop rewarding shitty teams and perhaps find something for those lower teams to fight for.

If a relegation system was tried... I think it would be better to take the bottom team(s) from MLS and the top team(s) from USL and have them playoff against each other to determine if relegation even takes place. While relegation is accepted in Europe, I think it is mildly unfair. Who's to say that the bottom team in the Prem is not better than the top team in the Championship? Those teams should play each other at the end of the season to decide whether or not to switch leagues...

[rocker]

Gareth Wheeler states this ....

The possibility of teams being sent down to an inferior league (competition and revenue generation) is the ultimate catalyst for organizational competitiveness.

I think he's living in a fantasy world. For one thing, MLS has competitiveness without relegation. The fact that Columbus went from nearly worst to first in three seasons without the possibility of relegation, or that Houston keeps putting together good teams without any possibility of relegation, says to me that relegation is not the "ultimate catalyst". It's a red herring, in the same way everyone talks about how the "free market" is the solution to all of our problems in society. You don't see teams going from worst to first in three seasons in the EPL. There's less competitiveness when the money reigns as the source of success.

Wheeler says: It's all about competition, survival of the fittest, and scraping and clawing for your territory.

nope Gareth, it's about $$$$$ and spending more than the rest, which has nothing to do with the competition on the field. If people think Chelsea and Man U are at the top because of some "survival of the fittest" and that they "scraped and clawed" their way up, they are blind.

He also says relegation makes all the games meaningful. But in MLS the playoffs made all the games meaningful until near the end for most teams. I watched the DC - Columbus game near the end of the season when DC needed a win to get into the playoffs and that was an intense, meaningful game.

Anyhow, relegation works in a society where the sport in question is #1. It doesn't need any special support. In a society where the sport is way down the list, it could potentially fail.

[ACSertL]

If a relegation system was tried... I think it would be better to take the bottom team(s) from MLS and the top team(s) from USL and have them playoff against each other to determine if relegation even takes place. While relegation is accepted in Europe, I think it is mildly unfair. Who's to say that the bottom team in the Prem is not better than the top team in the Championship? Those teams should play each other at the end of the season to decide whether or not to switch leagues...

Some leagues in Europe do this; Germany and Sweden come to mind immediately. In these cases the 3rd from bottom in the higher division plays the third from top in the lower divison to determine who stays where. So there still are some automatic promotions and relegations but sort of ensures that there is still 'something to play for'.

With all that said I am not sure that the North American market is ready for, or will even want to accept it.

[Billy the kid]

I think the league is probably ecstatic that a team from a large market like New York/New Jersey made the finals. This kind of thing happens in all other sports in North America. The Cinderella team makes the finals after barely making the playoffs.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Gareth Wheeler states this ....

The possibility of teams being sent down to an inferior league (competition and revenue generation) is the ultimate catalyst for organizational competitiveness.

I think he's living in a fantasy world. For one thing, MLS has competitiveness without relegation. The fact that Columbus went from nearly worst to first in three seasons without the possibility of relegation, or that Houston keeps putting together good teams without any possibility of relegation, says to me that relegation is not the "ultimate catalyst". It's a red herring, in the same way everyone talks about how the "free market" is the solution to all of our problems in society. You don't see teams going from worst to first in three seasons in the EPL. There's less competitiveness when the money reigns as the source of success.

Wheeler says: It's all about competition, survival of the fittest, and scraping and clawing for your territory.

nope Gareth, it's about $$$$$ and spending more than the rest, which has nothing to do with the competition on the field. If people think Chelsea and Man U are at the top because of some "survival of the fittest" and that they "scraped and clawed" their way up, they are blind.

He also says relegation makes all the games meaningful. But in MLS the playoffs made all the games meaningful until near the end for most teams. I watched the DC - Columbus game near the end of the season when DC needed a win to get into the playoffs and that was an intense, meaningful game.

Anyhow, relegation works in a society where the sport in question is #1. It doesn't need any special support. In a society where the sport is way down the list, it could potentially fail.

Exactly my point. The games didn't mean anything until the end of the season when it looked like teams could or couldn't sneak into the playoffs.

Also, it's the difference between celebrating obscure places with parity and the Giant killing scenario elsewhere. So with both sytems you can get your "Cinderella story" it's just a different format.

What it comes down to is there isn't that much to risk getting rid of playoffs right now. Just a couple of poorly attended games that may be made up during an all important season.

[Flipityflu]

oh yeah, new expansion teams forced to pay $40 million in fee's are just going to jump at the chance of joining with relegation. get over it. its North America, not the rest of the world. why there is a constant push for a system that will not work in this region is beyond me.

i do agree with the playoff system critique, but once again, this is North America, and things just don't work that way. North Americans are used to and comfortable with the regular season/playoff structure. that being said, i do like the home and away schedule to cut down on games so international games can be accomodated. i figure by the next expansion round we will be ready for this.

[Fort York Redcoat]

oh yeah, new expansion teams forced to pay $40 million in fee's are just going to jump at the chance of joining with relegation. get over it. its North America, not the rest of the world. why there is a constant push for a system that will not work in this region is beyond me.

i do agree with the playoff system critique, but once again, this is North America, and things just don't work that way. North Americans are used to and comfortable with the regular season/playoff structure. that being said, i do like the home and away schedule to cut down on games so international games can be accomodated. i figure by the next expansion round we will be ready for this.

Who cares about international games. This is NA and the league is the only thing worth following. MLS cup means you're the World champions.

It's just the way things are here. Change is NEVER gonna happen.

[keem-o-sabi]

We are talking two types of success here... on field and financial.
They go hand in hand but in North America we have it a bit backwards.
We reward ineptitude on field as long as the $$ keep rolling. This runs the risk of alienating fans but many North American sports leagues seem willing to risk it.

The promotion/relegation system puts the two things in sync. Do well on the field, with the resources you have, and you get promoted and get even more resources.
Mess up with the more resources at your disposal and you get relegated and suffer the resulting downturn in revenue. As a result the management becomes just as responsible as the players do for building and delivering an atmosphere for success.

Problem is there aren't the fiscal rewards here if you do well. If you get promoted to MLS you get slightly more coverage than if you were in the USL1/USL2/NPSL/or PDL. TV rights have finally come into MLS after years of paying to be shown (basically infomercials).

The playoff system needs altered, yes, but promotion relegation isn't the answer.

[Toronto_Bhoy]

I'd love to see a relegation format but it would never work here.

Soccer is a minor league sport in North America because it's not engrained in the sporting culture…things like relegation don't resonate with the sports fan here. Nor does it resonate with owners…and they run the leagues here unlike the FA’s in Europe. Owners are about money and in NA you don’t make it playing in the minors…you don’t get sponsorship…you don’t get TV. The business sports model on this side of the Atlantic just doesn’t have room for demotion…it would be the kiss of death.

IMO, the soccer moms (or SMILFs as I call them) are the future of the game in North America! It’s their children that will become the RPB’s of the future. I know its not a popular concept on these pages but its the largest market to mine…the tens of thousands of minor footballers in the GTA who enjoy the beautiful game.

Have a look around people…the “real” football supporter” isn’t interested in the MLS…attendance proves it. How many of us have friends who say, “How can you pay and watch that shit?” In large immigrant rich markets like Chicago, NY and LA it’s just not happening. The cultural populations in those cities should be filling stadia ten times over…but their not. We are an anomaly in Toronto, probably because of our cultural diversity. Growth in the MLS is going to come from those kids who get a “old country” game day experience from watching the likes of Barra Brava and RPB and saying, “Man, that looks like fun!” Our football snob buddies aren’t coming…

[Beach_Red]

I'd love to see a relegation format but it would never work here.

Until the day Celtic get relegated I'll continue to say it doesn't work anymore anywhere. This relegation you people are talking about is years out of date.

(I could have also said Rangers or Liverpool or ManU, but your signature, you know...)

[gmacpheetfc]

North American Football League Cup resembles Carling Cup and goes like this 4 regions ranked from 1-8 featuring teams from the MLS USL1 and USL 2 Where bottom 8 USL 2 teams play preliminaries to see who makes it into the final 32 rankings based on previous years tables.

Next years tournament would set up something like this
1 New York Red Bulls
2 Chivas USA
3 Colorado Rapids
4 Puerto Rico Islanders*
5 Carolina Rail Hawks
6 Minnesota Thunder *
7 Atlanta Silverbacks
8 Cleveland City Stars *

1 Houston Dynamo
2 DC United
3 San Jose Earthquakes
4 Montreal Impact
5 Rochester Rhinos **
6 Miami FC Blues *
7 Crystal Palace Baltimore **
8 Harrisburg City Islanders *

1 Real Salt Lake
2 FC Dallas
3 LA Galaxy
4 Charleston Battery
5 Austin Aztecs FC
6 Portland Timbers
7 Western Mass Pioneers *
8 Bermuda Hogges


1 Columbus Crew
2 Toronto FC
3 Seattle Sounders FC*
4 Vancouver Whitecaps **
5 Charlotte Eagles *
6 Richmond Kickers
7 Wilmington Hammerheads *
8 Pittsburgh Riverhounds**

You may argue will lead to abolishment of US Open Cup but with marketing has potential to become Much Bigger then US Open Cup

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

Garth Wheeler is smoking weed again...Christ promotion and relgation will not work over here. No MLS investor would want to see his club forced down into the USL. So thats a no go from the start. The playoff format they have now is fine and will be better as the league grows. I hope this issue will finally die as it is not going to happen.

[Azerban]

You may argue will lead to abolishment of US Open Cup but with marketing has potential to become Much Bigger then US Open Cup

yeah i mean it's only the oldest continually running football cup competition in the world



scrap that shit I want the Budweiser Mega Soccer Cup (sponsored by Cutco!)

[Damien]

scrap that shit I want the Budweiser Mega Soccer Cup (sponsored by Cutco!)

[Cashcleaner]

I wonder if we would still be selling out BMO Field every game if TFC ended up playing in a league below MLS...

Somehow, I don't think so.

Please people, you gotta use your heads on this one. A system of promotion/relegation just won't fly in North America. At least not in the foreseeable future. The geography and economics here are completely different than overseas.