The US/Canada divide on foreign players

[Hitcho]

I now the rules in MLS on foreign players are complicated to say the least, but does anyone know what the likelihood is of the US/Canada divide being scrapped in terms who is foreign and who is not (ie, any US or Canada player counts as domestic for any MLS team, whichever side of the border they are on)?

TFC is under a double hammer right now, since it is forced to have a number of internationals in order to compete, and they duly get plucked for their national sides. Plus, any Canadians it tends to get are typically in the national team mix. Compare that to the US sides who can play mostly US players, and then consider that typically only two or three US mens team players come from MLS each squad. Also, if Montreal, Ottawa and/or Vancouver come into the league then things will get much, much worse snce the Canadian player pool will be divided even further.

Either MLS creates a level playing field, or the Canadian teams are going to be continually disadvantaged, whoever they are. Anyone heard whether this is in the pipeline or even possible under immigration rules etc?

Hitcho

[Oldtimer]

Will not happen, period.

The USSF (US Soccer Federation) has blocked it, even though MLS was willing to look at the idea. MLS is under the USSF, so the cannot do anything about it.

[Hitcho]

^ Cheers for the info. MLS does seem to have some scope for changing the rules whenever they want on foreign players though, so they might be able to work around it a bit.

Why is the USSF so against the idea? Maybe they're worried TFC will do a Blue Jays on them and take what is basically an American title out of the States...

[werewolf]

Will not happen, period.

The USSF (US Soccer Federation) has blocked it, even though MLS was willing to look at the idea. MLS is under the USSF, so the cannot do anything about it.

In the new collective bargaining agreement, could the players not negotiate something with the league to circumvent that?

[rocker]

i think it's a jobs thing. if you allow canadians to be domestics on US teams, then you might take away american spots.
also, i think there's some legalities as well (Gazidis mentioned this once). They cannot privilege one group of internationals over another (so they can't privilege canadians).
there are americans and then there are internationals in law.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I guess the potential for soccer to be more popular in canada and therefore more more players being produced and therefore more players playing in the MLS is a possibility.

Alot of ifs involved tho.

Doesnt help we have 30 000 000, one tenth of the american population and the csa runs the soccer program in this country.

The USSF is pretty blind to these things tho

[Broadview]

While we only have a tenth of their population, there are thirteen times as many US teams in MLS as there are Canadian.

All things being equal, this should be an advantage for us.

Obviously, all things aren't quite equal.

[rocker]

while it'll never happen, I would prefer that MLS made canadians domestics league-wide, as it would mean potentially more opportunities for canadians across many teams.
that way you distribute the job of training and producing canadians beyond 1 or 2 teams. Out of that, perhaps more canadians would have better chances to play, and they wouldn't have to depend on the favour, or stick to the style of 1 or 2 coaches.

[Oldtimer]

^ Cheers for the info. MLS does seem to have some scope for changing the rules whenever they want on foreign players though, so they might be able to work around it a bit.

Why is the USSF so against the idea? Maybe they're worried TFC will do a Blue Jays on them and take what is basically an American title out of the States...

Any changes to the rules (such as the foreign players rules) were approved by the USSF (the changes in the foreign roster numbers were one such example that had to go by them). MLS falls under the USSF and has no authority to do anything without their approval, any more than your local amateur club can do anything in defiance of the CSA. Not gonna happen, period.

The USSF is adamantly against Canadians as domestic because the purpose of MLS (from the USSF perspective, not the MLS investor/owners) is to develop players for the US National squad. Anything else is secondary. It was already a concession to let TFC in. They will never let Canadian players be at par, because that would reduce the chances for American boys on US teams (TFC they are less concerned about, let them develop Canadian talent if they so chose).

[Oldtimer]

i think it's a jobs thing. if you allow canadians to be domestics on US teams, then you might take away american spots.
also, i think there's some legalities as well (Gazidis mentioned this once). They cannot privilege one group of internationals over another (so they can't privilege canadians).
there are americans and then there are internationals in law.

That's true as well.

[T_Mizz]

Something that could help us canadian teams would be to raise the player cap so we can get the better canadian players to come home because there are a bunch of players who make more than they would make in Canada but would be quality players or alternatively, this is a stupid idea, the MLS could limit Canadian players on US teams thereby giving Canadian teams a better shot of having good canadian MLS players like, Ante Jazic, Adrian Serioux, Will Johnson, DeRo, etc.

PS if they want to do something involving allowing canadians being classified as americans they should do it before McCain and Palin get elected as they'll never let American Jobs fall into foreign hands. LMAO

[TFCREDNWHITE]

Will not happen, period.

The USSF (US Soccer Federation) has blocked it, even though MLS was willing to look at the idea. MLS is under the USSF, so the cannot do anything about it.

They(MLS) might not be able to help us out through standard channels, but they could certainly create a rule(s) to specifically help TFC with the lopesided roster demands...So basically, MLS can give the middlefinger to the USSF if it finds that the USSF is blocking a much needed business model! MLS already gives the finger to FiFa, what makes you think that they won't give it to the USSF??

[TFCREDNWHITE]

Any changes to the rules (such as the foreign players rules) were approved by the USSF (the changes in the foreign roster numbers were one such example that had to go by them). MLS falls under the USSF and has no authority to do anything without their approval, any more than your local amateur club can do anything in defiance of the CSA. Not gonna happen, period.

Again, your thinking along standard channels....

Think outside of the box, MLS will go in through the back door!

[bergkamp]

They(MLS) might not be able to help us out through standard channels, but they could certainly create a rule(s) to specifically help TFC with the lopesided roster demands...So basically, MLS can give the middlefinger to the USSF if it finds that the USSF is blocking a much needed business model! MLS already gives the finger to FiFa, what makes you think that they won't give it to the USSF??

Have you been sleeping for the past year? MLS already gave 3 extra international spots to TFC, 2 of which have to be American players.

MLS is not going to give the finger to the USSF because a lot of the people who run the USSF also run MLS.

Moreover, with all MLS clubs required to start youth academies, some of the local talent will come from the youth system. Yeah, it sucks now but be patient.

[J .]

I like that TFC is being forced to develop Canadian talent and I think that it will be even better for Canada long term if both Van and MTL get involved at a higher level as it will give the CMNT a better than current feeding system.

Plus it is not has though TFC is horribly suffering from the situation. Our starting Canadians aren't bad and Attakora, Gala as well as others comming up are looking like they are going to be good products.

There is plenty of space for non-Canadians and through TFC producing more and more talent, it only helps the team cause out long term as well.

[TicTacTabarnack]

Have you been sleeping for the past year? MLS already gave 3 extra international spots to TFC, 2 of which have to be American players.

MLS is not going to give the finger to the USSF because a lot of the people who run the USSF also run MLS.

Moreover, with all MLS clubs required to start youth academies, some of the local talent will come from the youth system. Yeah, it sucks now but be patient.

Didn't Mojo trade to get those extra international spots?

[Wooster_TFC]

Didn't Mojo trade to get those extra international spots?

http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=3237

We have:
2 extra Internationals from the league (TFC Only)
5 extra Internationals from the league (TFC Only, US Only)
3 extra Internationals through trades

Each of these have timelines on which they will be either reviewed, or taken away (either by the league, or back to the team we traded with).

[Hitcho]

Couple of points:

1. Isn't MLS counting a player as domestic/foreign separate from how the US government views them for work visas etc? The US govt could still require Canadians to get the standard work permits, but once they get them, for MLS roster purposes only, those players do not count as a "foriegn" spot in the MLS side (and vice versa within Canada). I don't see why the US govt would have any problem with that, so MLS (and the USSF) could make this happen fi they wanted to, no?

2. Long term I agree that the youth development program will help TFC, but two things still worry me about that: a) the more Canadian teams that come into MLS the more thinly spread the talent pool will be, and while this might be good for the CMNT it is shit news for TFC and any other Canadian clubs that join the league because the talent pool will be finite; and b) if those Canadian players we develop do go on to play for the CMNT, then we're still going to be just as f*cked when it comes to FIFA dates because we'll lose both our domestic and our foreign players, whereas US teams will hardly lose anyone.

I accept that MLS made a concession to allow TCF in to begin with, but having done so they can't then fuck us over on player rules. We paid the franchise fee, so we're entitled to a fair playing field. WTF??!!

Still, if the rules do always work against us it'll just make it that much sweeter when we win the league! BRING IT ON!!!!!!!!

[TFCREDNWHITE]

Have you been sleeping for the past year? MLS already gave 3 extra international spots to TFC, 2 of which have to be American players.

MLS is not going to give the finger to the USSF because a lot(Please Define) of the people who run the USSF also run MLS.

Moreover, with all MLS clubs required to start youth academies, some of the local talent will come from the youth system. Yeah, it sucks now but be patient.

MLS is a strict business entity, and that is how it is run first and foremost! Please remember that it has been AEG that practicly ran and kept a float the league for many many years!! AEG would basically make all the important decisions that it found necessary for its own well being first, the USSF came second.

[bergkamp]

MLS is a strict business entity, and that is how it is run first and foremost! Please remember that it has been AEG that practicly ran and kept a float the league for many many years!! AEG would basically make all the important decisions that it found necessary for its own well being first, the USSF came second.

Specifically, Sunil Gulati is the president of both the USSF and the New England Revolution. The new owner of the Philadelphia team overseas the player development academies for the USSF. There are others I can't remember right now. The USSF will not allow MLS to count Canadians as domestics.

Point being though, it doesn't help TFC at all if MLS allows Canadians to be counted as domestics in the US. If anything, it actually hurts TFC. Because if American MLS clubs snatch up the few talented Canadians available, that will be a few less on TFC.

[Hitcho]

Point being though, it doesn't help TFC at all if MLS allows Canadians to be counted as domestics in the US. If anything, it actually hurts TFC. Because if American MLS clubs snatch up the few talented Canadians available, that will be a few less on TFC.

That's true if you only want Canadians on TFC's roster, but the point is that if the US/Canada divide is erased for MLS purposes, then TFC can stock up with US players and not have them count as foreign, so the problem's gone away. And more importantly, TFC could stock up with players that wouldn;t all disappear every time there's a FIFA date on the calendar, since only a few USMT players are in MLS anyway. Plus we wouldn't be stuck trying to force Canadian players onto the roster who might not be good enoguh to deserve a spot.

So in fact, erasing the distinction between US/Canada players for MLS purposes would help TFC a huge, enormous, massive amount.