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    Default Ives pegs TFC as big off-season mover

    CONTRADICTION- In your opinion, which MLS team is best poised to have a big offseason?
    IVES- Toronto FC has to get the nod...(more)


    http://www.soccerbyives.net/soccer_b...st-2.html#more

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    Thanks for the link, it's a good read for sure

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    Allocation money = next year looks good
    3 draft picks = the years to come looks good

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    I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here but...

    Allocation money won't do anything for the club if players are scared to play in Toronto. We had a considerable amount of money before the start of this season, but multiple deals fell through because players did not want to play here.

    Toronto is picking from a very small pool of players right now because of the playing surface, and to some extent, the fact that we are not an American city. Players usually fall in love with the city once they arrive, but if they don't come in the first place, then we're screwed.


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    ^^ very very very true

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    very true.
    another thing thats true is there has to be alotof movement in the offseason seeing how this season went and hte amount of pressure mo is now under.

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    Mo has to start earlier this year. If he's going to sign players from Europe, get them in January not July. Then the team get to work together in pre season and small adjustments can be made...
    Toronto 'til I die although still a Leeds fan at heart...


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    Anyone see this at the bottom about the CMNT

    Canada could be another power if it ever gets its act together, because it's pretty embarrassing how badly the Canadians have done in qualifying considering the talent they have.
    I also had a good laugh at this
    I think the MLS could be ranked with the bottom half of the League Championship in terms of talent level as a whole. Now, teams like Houston, New England and Columbus would obviously be ranked higher, and I think could fall in the 5-10 range (just my opinion), but overall, that's where I'd put the league in terms of talent.
    I know its not just TFC committing mindless turnovers so I don't know how he could rank us up there with teams like Barnsley and Norwich (who released one of our leagues biggest stars with no transfer fee).

    That's one thing, but to think that Columbus or Houston could hang with a team like Cardiff is taking absurd to a whole new level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andyc View Post
    Mo has to start earlier this year. If he's going to sign players from Europe, get them in January not July. Then the team get to work together in pre season and small adjustments can be made...
    problem with that is contracts don't expire in jan but in june. unless mo grabs someone on a free transfer, or grab a free agent or team releases a player from his contract (which does involve some money so a lot of team don't pursue this)

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    at this point in time its all about filling in the cracks (like a couple of CBs, another striker or so and another winger or so), id prefer that we got the majority of our players so they have time to gel then add as needed, i think we have a pretty good basis for a team right now, just missing a few players

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    Quote Originally Posted by MartinUtd View Post

    I also had a good laugh at this.
    what's so wrong with his comments? I think that's pretty fair.

    I've watched the championship on Setanta since last year. I think Ives is totally correct that the top couple teams would do well against some of the near-top CCC teams. and the rest would be closer to the bottom of that league.
    CCC teams have smarter team play, but less athleticism. There's more flair in MLS, particularly with the south americans. I see a more even talent level in the CCC, as the better players get taken up to higher levels.
    They also don't play in searing heat (see Dallas for example...) and they don't have much in the way of travel compared to MLS teams...

    You provide the Hucks example, but then I hear guys on this very board saying guys like Robinson are shit and should be gone, even though Robinson was a mainstay at that level too. Ricketts was not doing well at that level, but he hasn't exactly lit the league on fire in MLS (although I really do like the guy and think he's a useful starter).

    So one example (Hucks) doesn't prove the championship is better.
    If our worse teams don't compare to the bottom the CCC, then do they compare to the top of League 1? If so, that's exactly where Norwich and Barnsley are gonna be next year at their current rate of play
    Last edited by rocker; 10-07-2008 at 03:23 PM.

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    Huckerby was one of the best players in the Championship. In fact, he only had a couple of bad seasons his entire career.

    Robinson was never able to hold down a starting place for long, because fewer and fewer teams at the top two levels are playing with dedicated holding mids; they all want box-to-box players. Same with Danny D, as target men are also becoming more scarce. He'd get regular work there, to be sure.

    I just don't think MLS teams play with the same precision and cohesion (and yes, I do get Setanta as well). There may be more raw athletic talent here at times, but even speed and size seem more significant there than here. I'd peg most MLS teams as League One, a couple (Houston, Columbus) able to compete in the Championship.

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    Call me a homer, but I think Leeds United would smoke any team in the MLS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CretanBull View Post
    Call me a homer, but I think Leeds United would smoke any team in the MLS.
    Homer.

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    Back on topic....

    Mo had just under a million to spend last season. Out of all of the aqusitions,

    Robert was decent in the beginning(but got frustrated),
    Velez...well I don't think he should be with the club next season
    Ricketts...definitely a keeper
    Smith (Johann)...a keeper
    Ruiz....what a waste

    So 2 out of 5. In this league if you can continually get 2 out of 5 and those keepers are young I think you will have a very competitive team in the long term. If Mo can repeat that this season, not too shabby. And with the 3 draft picks, Mo should be able to actually fill out the roster without leaving empty spots so we aren't faced with having only 2 subs on the bench if 9 players get the call. I didn't include Ibee as he is gen adidas so he doesn't count against the cap.

    Now get me a DP who can score (a player like Angel would be more than good and wouldn't break the bank)

    Get me 2 CB's who are decent and signed before the season starts.

    I think TFC has the chance of becoming on of the strongest teams in the MLS. A million should do it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler View Post
    Homer.


    Even though we all saw it coming, this one made still made me chuckle out loud.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    I just don't think MLS teams play with the same precision and cohesion. There may be more raw athletic talent here at times,
    glad to see you agree with me

    but one point I'd add -- is that none of us watches every team in the championship and none of us watches every team in MLS. If we had Houston's team at BMO every week, we might be singing a different tune in talking about these comparisons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by S_D View Post
    Back on topic....

    Mo had just under a million to spend last season. Out of all of the aqusitions,

    Robert was decent in the beginning(but got frustrated),
    Velez...well I don't think he should be with the club next season
    Ricketts...definitely a keeper
    Smith (Johann)...a keeper
    Ruiz....what a waste

    So 2 out of 5. In this league if you can continually get 2 out of 5 and those keepers are young I think you will have a very competitive team in the long term. If Mo can repeat that this season, not too shabby. And with the 3 draft picks, Mo should be able to actually fill out the roster without leaving empty spots so we aren't faced with having only 2 subs on the bench if 9 players get the call. I didn't include Ibee as he is gen adidas so he doesn't count against the cap.

    Now get me a DP who can score (a player like Angel would be more than good and wouldn't break the bank)

    Get me 2 CB's who are decent and signed before the season starts.

    I think TFC has the chance of becoming on of the strongest teams in the MLS. A million should do it
    i agree with all this.

    i still believe we aren't as bad as the record indicates. i have attended all home games and i feel like there were many many more points to be had if we just had a striker who finished the easy ones. This is where I want my DP. He doesn't have to make something of nothing.. just when he gets a decent chance, he puts it in. TFC created a shitload of chances in many of those home games, clear obvious chances that they couldn't put away. Dichio was actually quite good at this, but he doesn't get enough chances.
    convert some of those and the extra 5-8 goals would make a massive difference (look at the goals scored totals for the teams around us.. it's very close).

    I don't want radical changes next year.. you do that, and you are screwed again for another year. Look at how DC radically altered their lineup and went from being a cohesive, strong team to a team still learning to play together. I think the parts are there in most positions for this level of league. A little bit of improvement on the defense, and a clinical finisher and this team will go places. Even on defense, TFC isn't THAT bad in goals against compared to other teams in playoff positions.

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    also Ruiz isnt necessarily a waste, we got him for nothing, hes not necessarily going to be around next season. If he is i doubt itll be at his current pay AND hes still going to be grandfathered for one more year...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ossington Mental Youth View Post
    also Ruiz isnt necessarily a waste, we got him for nothing, hes not necessarily going to be around next season. If he is i doubt itll be at his current pay AND hes still going to be grandfathered for one more year...
    Exactly. I think Ruiz was intended to be a rental, with the option of buying him if he regained some of his old form. And why not - we had tons of cap space left for this year anyway?

    As it stands, I suspect he will be jettisoned out of T.O. after this season.

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    Exactly. I think Ruiz was intended to be a rental, with the option of buying him if he regained some of his old form. And why not - we had tons of cap space left for this year anyway?

    As it stands, I suspect he will be jettisoned out of T.O. after this season.

    - Scott
    Hell I'll pack his bags for him. Someone just drive him to the Buffalo border and tell him to get the hell out and never come back. That guy is a waste of sperm!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BuSaPuNk View Post
    That guy is a waste of sperm!!
    Ouch! (true, but still ouch!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ossington Mental Youth View Post
    also Ruiz isnt necessarily a waste, we got him for nothing, hes not necessarily going to be around next season. If he is i doubt itll be at his current pay AND hes still going to be grandfathered for one more year...
    True we got him for the 2 supplemental draft picks but, in the process we also helped out the Galaxy. Not only did we give them salary considerations (allocation cash), it allowed them to sign Eddie Lewis. If that allocation cash was going to expire, sure use it. But if it has cut into next seasons allocation $$$ it could be the difference between a decent CB and a really solid CB. And remember that it is teams like the Galaxy TFC has to beat down in order to get into the playoffs.

    Not sure about Ruiz's contract status (anyone know the details?) but if it has been like the others, it was 2 years + 2 years club option. Even if he is grandfathered, his salary (if the club does indeed have the 2 year option) will count 415K against the cap and the to-be-signed DP will count 325K. Suddenly we are getting into salary cap issues where the team is going to have to cheap out somewhere. Can't afford to do that.

    I would not be surprised at all if Ruiz is cut before the expansion draft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 125_TFC View Post
    I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here but...
    it's always fun to watch!


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    Quote Originally Posted by S_D View Post
    True we got him for the 2 supplemental draft picks but, in the process we also helped out the Galaxy. Not only did we give them salary considerations (allocation cash), it allowed them to sign Eddie Lewis. If that allocation cash was going to expire, sure use it. But if it has cut into next seasons allocation $$$ it could be the difference between a decent CB and a really solid CB. And remember that it is teams like the Galaxy TFC has to beat down in order to get into the playoffs.

    Not sure about Ruiz's contract status (anyone know the details?) but if it has been like the others, it was 2 years + 2 years club option. Even if he is grandfathered, his salary (if the club does indeed have the 2 year option) will count 415K against the cap and the to-be-signed DP will count 325K. Suddenly we are getting into salary cap issues where the team is going to have to cheap out somewhere. Can't afford to do that.

    I would not be surprised at all if Ruiz is cut before the expansion draft.
    Ruiz's current contract is up at the end of this season. If Toronto FC don't want him, then they don't have to do anything. He becomes a free agent either way.

    They don't even have to worry about "protecting" him in the expansion draft.

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    Ruiz's current contract is up at the end of this season. If Toronto FC don't want him, then they don't have to do anything. He becomes a free agent either way.

    They don't even have to worry about "protecting" him in the expansion draft.

    - Scott
    yep, thats not to mention we needed a striker and if he had performed as he has in the past this wouldnt have been an issue. Eddie Lewis hasnt helped LA all that much as they are still below us in points. I wouldnt say that it was a terrible move, it was a reasonable gamble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 125_TFC View Post
    I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here but...

    Allocation money won't do anything for the club if players are scared to play in Toronto. We had a considerable amount of money before the start of this season, but multiple deals fell through because players did not want to play here.

    Toronto is picking from a very small pool of players right now because of the playing surface, and to some extent, the fact that we are not an American city. Players usually fall in love with the city once they arrive, but if they don't come in the first place, then we're screwed.

    I think he has stumbled on a key point here. .

    SELLING THE CITY!!

    Mo can;t do it on his own, althohjgh the 2 times I ran into him as he was courting players (Huckerby) he seemded to be doing quite well, but since the City has a vested interest in the team, ground , results and profits dont you think that someone from the Hall woul dalso be interested in doing some schmoozing?

    it cat be ALL about the surface can it?

    wait . . no. . . I digress. IT IS ALL ABOUT THE SURFACE!

    BMO NEEDS GRASS! ~
    BMO NEEDS GRASS! ~
    BMO NEEDS GRASS! ~
    BMO NEEDS GRASS! ~
    BMO NEEDS GRASS! ~
    NOTICE: Wager with STB: OVER 2 shots on goal in the First half wins a Pint at HT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocker View Post
    what's so wrong with his comments? I think that's pretty fair.

    I've watched the championship on Setanta since last year. I think Ives is totally correct that the top couple teams would do well against some of the near-top CCC teams. and the rest would be closer to the bottom of that league.
    CCC teams have smarter team play, but less athleticism. There's more flair in MLS, particularly with the south americans. I see a more even talent level in the CCC, as the better players get taken up to higher levels.
    They also don't play in searing heat (see Dallas for example...) and they don't have much in the way of travel compared to MLS teams...

    You provide the Hucks example, but then I hear guys on this very board saying guys like Robinson are shit and should be gone, even though Robinson was a mainstay at that level too. Ricketts was not doing well at that level, but he hasn't exactly lit the league on fire in MLS (although I really do like the guy and think he's a useful starter).

    So one example (Hucks) doesn't prove the championship is better.
    If our worse teams don't compare to the bottom the CCC, then do they compare to the top of League 1? If so, that's exactly where Norwich and Barnsley are gonna be next year at their current rate of play
    My example is absolutely apt. Robinson WAS a main stay in top flight european football, now he's counting down the clock in North America like Pele did. Huckerby's strike rate in his last three years at Norwich was 22 goals of off 125 games which is okay, but when you look at what hes doing now in SJ [10 (6)] it doesnt compare. Thats not even factoring in that hes getting older every year.

    Also look at Ricketts and Dichio... they got shit out of the bottom of reserve squads and now they're on par with MLS talent over here. What does that tell you?

    If we had Houston's team at BMO every week, we might be singing a different tune in talking about these comparisons.
    MLS is League One or at least CCC which is about to be relegated. Compare Houston to Barnsley. Dero is the big star and has lead the team to numerous championships. Barnsley just paid 2.5mil for Hume (who is used interchangabley with Dero on the CNMT) and is also the big star there. Barnesly are clawing to stay in the CCC and would absolutely put up 60 points in MLS.

    As for South American's in England... the 90's are over. You can fine the Latin American influence all the way from Leeds who added Luciano Bechio this year, to Man Utd who have the likes of Tevez and Anderson in their line up.

    Anyway.. if this needs to be further debated (which it really doesn't) we should start a new thread.. i hate being that hijacker guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MartinUtd View Post
    My example is absolutely apt. Robinson WAS a main stay in top flight european football, now he's counting down the clock in North America like Pele did. Huckerby's strike rate in his last three years at Norwich was 22 goals of off 125 games which is okay, but when you look at what hes doing now in SJ [10 (6)] it doesnt compare. Thats not even factoring in that hes getting older every year.

    Also look at Ricketts and Dichio... they got shit out of the bottom of reserve squads and now they're on par with MLS talent over here. What does that tell you?

    MLS is League One or at least CCC which is about to be relegated. Compare Houston to Barnsley. Dero is the big star and has lead the team to numerous championships. Barnsley just paid 2.5mil for Hume (who is used interchangabley with Dero on the CNMT) and is also the big star there. Barnesly are clawing to stay in the CCC and would absolutely put up 60 points in MLS.

    As for South American's in England... the 90's are over. You can fine the Latin American influence all the way from Leeds who added Luciano Bechio this year, to Man Utd who have the likes of Tevez and Anderson in their line up.

    Anyway.. if this needs to be further debated (which it really doesn't) we should start a new thread.. i hate being that hijacker guy.
    As the guy who started the thread, your concientiousness is appreciated. But I don't mind it being hijacked as long as the debate is good.

    A few points. I would NEVER say Carl Robinson was a "mainstay" of European football; he was an unheard of backup player for most of his career. He'd get a long stretch to start with a new team then end up as defensive cover. So that's a moot comparison.

    Darren Huckerby couldn't even be said to have a strike rate at norwich -- his impressive goals there were all while playing as an out-and-out winger over the last three seasons, and wingers aren't generally tapped for their strike rate. His only season as a striker there was his first and he was one of the top scorers in the league.

    Ricketts was always seen as highly talented but inconsistent enough to tick off one-mindset coaches. He didn't play 21 odd game as a starter for Spurs because he was seen as a middling bench prospect; and his slide started with a succession of manager changes, as is often the case for guys who are seen as having more potential but never quite make the grade. So to call him a bench warmer at Barnsley -- where his position was already filled by two other players when he signed -- isn't exactly right.

    Danny D I'll agree with you -- sort of. He was never seen as a goal scorer there because he always had a strike partner. But he was a starter for most of his career, until target men started falling out of favour. So he, again, was hardly a benchwarmer.

    It's too easy to label these guys "has beens" in English football; mostly, they were among the upper class of "never wheres", guys who might have made more of it if given the opportunity. Robert was the only guy we've had who had a top-flight English career, and it was known before he arrived that his sixth gear was shot.

    And having said all of that.... I agree that hte overall level is League One, but have to keep in mind that the bottom of the CCC is basically the same as the top of league one, the bottom of theprem is basically the same as the top of the CCC etc etc .

    On the point at hand, that allocation money IS significnat when you have the location/turf challenges Toronto has, because it can be used as matching funds for salary or bonuses. So we can have player making $333,000 under the cap who is actually taking home up to a $1 short of double that. When you have shitloads of allocation money you have much more cap flexibility.

 

 

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