I don't think Prince is too expensive. Too early to tell for me, but if he can sniff around 8-10 goals this season and is cheap I would keep him as an off the bench striker.Originally Posted by JoesphNdo
Edit: He is on 600k a year salary. Akinola is 700k.
https://www.capology.com/club/toronto-fc/salaries/
Last edited by SenorDingDong; 04-15-2024 at 12:58 PM.
I know it's harsh, but that's too much. Even if he scores a few his all round play is just not up to it. When we get into the final third we have nowhere to go because the movement and speed of thought just isn't there.
Put another way if we traded for him at that salary you'd be questioning our GM. The opportunity cost with the salary cap is too high. I don't think a single team looking to challenge, which we all should be, would be talking to him at that price and that's the mindset we need to start having. We have to be ruthless with our cap.
Anything less than half a mill for a striker generally = unproven or developing option. It’s higher paid than other positions for obvious reasons of course. At his packet it sort of communicates capable but not starter level.
I’d expect more consistency than we’ve got from him to this point to be fair. But we should temper expectations somewhat,
It's the first time he's gotten decent service since the one chance he was handed in the first game. Too early to write him off as not good enough, way too early. Wait until he starts getting continual service and see if he finishes consistently first. Certainly looked well-timed on Saturday.
I will say he's not a well-rounded striker who will create his own goals. He's a target man who finishes stuff in the box, a poacher basically. But on 700K a year, if he can score 10 goals, he's decent value. The McGuires are rare in MLS; most of the guys scoring double digits are making more than that.
At 700K, I'd keep him even if he's the number two, if he can keep scoring. Because the rest of his game is pretty solid.
Last edited by jloome; 04-15-2024 at 07:14 PM.
I think in new MLS 600k for an off the bench striker has to be ok.
Realistically our starting striker should be making at least Osos salary. Anywhere from 1.2 to 2 million.
So a backup on the bench at half that makes sense. Anyway to be determined. If he can get near 8-10 I think worth it as a bench option.
That isn't as much true as it used to be - many Directors of Football / Presidents are now from overseas.
prince looks great when he comes off the bench, and that has a ton of value in this league. 700K for a guy who can grab 10+ goals off the bench over a season as a poacher is definitely good value.
Never really considered Martial as a guy to watch in terms of coming to MLS (zero chance Montreal pays that kind of salary), but if this is true TFC should be all over it.
Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/joshua_reports/status/1780018675073929324
I hope your right
But I don't see it as a service issue, I see it as a striker quality issue. We have no problem getting the ball to dangerous players in good positions in the final third, the problem is moves die a death once that happens. That says to me 'striker without sufficient movement' not 'bad service'. No chance creation is as much, if not more, a question of the striker and not the service nine times out of ten. Good strikers have chances fall their way, bad strikers do not. To my eye, that's exactly the issue here. I see a guy not upto it at this level, and our lack of someone up to it at this level is what causes our attacks to go flat so often. It's a long way to go before we can put double digit scorer on him - he's only hit double digits with a club, never mind in a season, once in his career if Wikipedia is to be believed - and he hasn't been consistently playing at a level higher than the current one. Sofascore has him averaging 1.1 shots a game, and you aren't consistently scoring 10 goals averaging 1.1 shots a game. I don't share this confidence that he's a a career average 10 goals a season MLS scorer right now, I have to admit.
I hope I'm wrong, and really, we'll know one way or another before the decision has to me made. To me, he's not a player we'd trade for right now if he was available, nor is his contract one other MLS teams would want. That's the criteria someone has to pass, anything else is the kind of roster bloat that has crippled us since Bez left.
If he proves me wrong, though, I'll be delighted and luckily the decision won't be made today so he'll have time to do so. He puts in a shift and seems to have a good attitude, for sure, he's the kind of guy I want to succeed. I just don't see it in his play or history.
Last edited by JoesphNdo; 04-15-2024 at 09:04 PM.
Herdman in the presser last week talked about not enough movement in the box to cause the first defender on crosses to have to think.
When I look at our two goals from last week, that aspect improved - but its only 1 game.
I agree with JosephNdo - the issue with Owusu isn't service, its movement to create openings for service to get to him.
Carolina has the same issue BTW- like to cross in the ball but their attackers were not creating a headache for our defenders to deal with (exception on their 3rd goal which was a mental breakdown)
I think the statement "We have no problem getting the ball to dangerous players in good positions" is wildly inaccurate.
Until this last game, nearly all of our service had to come from either Insigne or Bernardeschi, as they're the only ones repeatedly on the ball in the offensive end. And neither of them even attempts service, most of the time. Fede is among the top 3 in shots taken in the league.
(And I'm not saying Owusu's movement is great; I'm saying it's irrelevant, because the ball is almost never served into the box with anything resembling accuracy.)
When Richie was with us at the start of last year? Sure, we got lots of service into the box. WE've had fuck all since then. And Herdman, if anyone hasn't noticed, NEVER criticizes either of his best players.
"There's not enough movement" isn't just a statement about them getting open, it's an excuse for us delivering fewer balls from open play into the box than any team in the league. Because it's the same as saying "if their movement isn't good, there's no one to cross to".
But they don't even put the ball into dangerous areas. This week was literally the first time this season that Bernardeschi has crossed the ball more than three times in a match. Yeah, occasionally there was a decent ball and no one on the end of it (I remember a particular cross in week two that was very dangerous, an outswinger from when he switched to the left).
But that's been far less common than us having three guys in the box and neither DP even ATTEMPTING to get it to them. They both pull the same exact attempted move eight out of 10 times downfield: get the ball somewhere near the box, try to get to the top corner and rip a diagonal shot.
And we saw some proof of that this week. The ball was put to the same exact spot, twice, and he scored, twice. What that indicates to me is that during the week off, they worked on where Prince likes to receive the ball. He didn't change his game at all, as both were taps ins from two feet away. But he was covered both times and still scored, so his 'movement' clearly wasn't the issue, the service was.
The one chance he had prior to that was a header, but it wasn't open. He was surrounded by defenders at the time and likely seeing it at the last second, because he had a defender between him and the delivery.
Nope, not buying it. He hasn't had even close to enough service yet to determine whether he's the issue. And again, I'd point to him scoring seven in his last nine in Germany; I posted those goals. None of them were tap-ins, but all of them required service, because he's a striker that requires service. And anyone who thinks the Bundesliga 2's defending is markedly weaker than MLS is kidding themselves.
Last edited by jloome; 04-16-2024 at 12:33 PM.
I largely agree with this. I think this club gave up on Jimenez way too fast too. He had 9 goals, then we totally changed how we played when the Italians came (and they wanted to just shoot it all the time).
I'm certain they will still target a better striker this summer but I wouldn't give up on Owusu yet. Akinola / Peruzza / Mailula can all be dumped first.
You cannot attempt to service movement which does not exist is exactly my point, though. We absolutely do get the ball into the final third, that isn't wildly inaccurate, quite the opposite. We get the ball into dangerous positions in the final third all the time, what we do not do is get the ball into dangerous positions in the box. We cannot convert the ball from dangerous positions outside the box into chances. Is that the fault of our providers, or our striker?
I look at the track record of our providers over their history, granted not all of whom have been fit this season, and I look at Princes goal scoring history - plus my own eye test, I draw one conclusion, you draw another.
A striker not getting chances isn't a defence of a striker, though, as a general rule - it's a damning indictment of that striker. It's the number one hallmark of a striker not upto it at this level. Especially when playing with people who have supplied ample service throughout their history, and a striker who has not scored goals throughout his history. Good strikers don't score every shot, but good strikers get lots of dangerous shots, some of the best ones are actually quite wasteful, but they get chances and that's what makes them great. A point of reference, Prince has a conversion rate of 33% so far this season. The top 3 scorers in MLS last year, per Sofascore, were Bouanga with a conversion of shot to goal of 7%, Cucho Hernández at 11%, Luciano Acosta at 10%, taking 5.6, 4.5 & 2.5 shots per game. Prince will not keep scoring 1 in 3 shots he takes, that's unsustainable unless he's an incredible finisher, so unless he starts getting far more shots off then the 1.1 per game he has now, then he won't sustain even his current goal rate with us.
You can point to 7 goals in Germany, I point to a goal record of 38 in 201 if his career Wiki is correct - that's 1 in 5.3. That isn't a good average unless you provide alot of non goal scoring weapons, like assists, and so far...I just don't see it. At all. Where is the confidence this guy can score goals coming from? One stretch of 7 goals over a 9 year career?
But let's just agree to disagree. He'll either prove you me me right by the end of the season, one way or another. Nobody will be happier than me if it's me proven wrong.
Last edited by JoesphNdo; 04-16-2024 at 01:30 PM.
It's our providers. They are all shit and/or all trying to walk the ball towards the center of the pitch to work a shot and then it's blocked plus our typical lack of pace and movement.
Herdman said a stat a couple of weeks ago in his presser; we attempted 13 crosses in the match and only 3 beat the first defender. That speaks to a few issues like wide pace, limited movement in the box to draw defenders, and some players not knowing when to unleash a cross. Usually all three of those at once in most cases and until that's fixed, no striker that requires any type of service is going to manage much up top unless he can create for himself and we don't have any of those.
Yeah to be clear, it's not that I think our service is without issue or beyond criticism. It's that I see nothing in Princes game that says MLS level striker. When we get the ball into the final third it almost feels like playing a man down at time, there is no point man to make plays with, no movement, no way to make passes to move us into better positions. I just don't see it with him, that's all.
You're not understanding my argument. I'm saying we have to wait to judge, not that he's good.
If we wait until the end of the season to judge... well, that's what I'm suggesting. Your suggestion is he's not a good striker. But I'm not suggesting the polar opposite of that, JN, I'm disagreeing with making the assessment now.
We'll know as the season goes along; but you can't really judge by his Germany record prior to his first-team run; he averaged less than 15 minutes per game until last season and always had good strikers ahead of him. A good chunk of that was in the Bundesliga, where it's very hard to breakthrough. He's spent most of his life at big clubs, being well paid, but getting little playing time. But... they don't hold onto guys for years who lack ability.
That run was literally only his second chance to be the starter since signing as a youth, and I know from talking to them that that lack of opportunity played a part in their decision to sign him. He got his late chance because of injury, not team confidence, and he took it.
(He did get one other shot to start, and didn't take it, going scoreless in seven. So maybe he's just wildly too inconsistent. But I think it's too early to tell at this level.)
Last edited by jloome; 04-16-2024 at 04:31 PM.
Yeah, I'd agree with this. Jimenez was equally a poacher, without a lot of movement or range. He was good at find space quickly and finishing accurately. Without a number 10 feeding him on the ground, his game was basically reduced to average winger.
But if we use a striker to their strengths -- and had continued to do so with him -- they'll score more. He had nine in the first half of the season and aside from one in the Cup, none once Pozuelo was gone.
Plus he was miserable. They traded away the two guys he got along with.
This, exactly. We create nothing in the box for them to finish. Fede puts two balls into a dangerous, low area with us having at least three men deep in the box, and we get two goals out of it. I don't think it's a stretch to say no poacher is going to shine in that circumstance, and our strikers are pretty much all poacher level. None of them is beating the back line for speed or off the back shoulder.
true this...the strikers stopped scoring the min poz was moved,lor and fede are shoot 1st and 2nd pass 3rd and 4th,we need a true 10 more than a striker.that would help our goal scoring including lor and fede
If they insist on using the Italians as primarily goal scorers, I'd say a 10. But ideally, they'd only really expect a ton of goal from Insigne, as Bernardeschi has not been prolific scorer now in nearly a decade.
Frankly he's been so good as a wingback, I say we leave him there, play him opposite Richie when he gets back, let Spicer learn as the backup. Fede's biggest benefits are his technique and his engine. I think we'd have many more goals from him being provider than he'll score cutting in from the right.
Ideally, we get a powerful 9 who can also drop back and act as a false 9/10 when necessary, and create their own goals, a guy like Aaron Boupendza, or a more central Joseph Paintsil.
Last edited by jloome; 04-16-2024 at 05:02 PM.
Changing Poz for Insigne was a downgrade.
Gahd.... that's depressingly true. He was much more productive and dangerous in this league, even in his thirties. He had a bunch of assists in Miami before he went overseas as well.
Fuck Bradley, man.
frankly im tired of making excuses for these 2 guys for the status and money they are making,they got to be in 15 20 goal range between them not a oft injured player and a 6 mil dollar wingback,but we are stuck for 2 more years
It's pretty galling. $21M per season to get a handful of goals and assists. Even if Insigne stays healthy, I think he'll be lucky to hit double digits, as infrequently as he puts shots on target.frankly im tired of making excuses for these 2 guys for the status and money they are making,they got to be in 15 20 goal range between them not a oft injured player and a 6 mil dollar wingback,but we are stuck for 2 more years
In the last 365 days, according to FBref.com, Bernardeschi is in the bottom 5% of wingers and Attacking midfielders in terms of goal frequency, the bottom 30% in non penalty xG created, the bottom 3% in terms of assists.
He's in the top 15% of shots taken per game, (2.84/90) and yet in the bottom five percent of both goals and assists.
His numbers are outrageously bad. He's literally one of the worst starting wingers in the league in terms of actual point contribution. And that's over a year, not just this season:
https://fbref.com/en/players/ee93c1a...o-Bernardeschi
The only area in which he shows well is progressive carries (top 20%) and successful take-ons (top 17%). But he produces sweet fuck all.
At least at wingback last week, he had two assists. Using him as scorer or expecting him to score seems to be defying all logic, but we keep moving him back to inverted winger, as if it's going to change.
Last edited by jloome; 04-16-2024 at 05:13 PM.
Of all of the Bradley disaster class decisions, seemingly falling out with and then getting rid of Poz for a bag of balls is up there for the worst one. And that's an elite list.
And then, naturally, we got the ol' TFC "Hey, he just magically wanted to leave" line which he had to later refute himself. Ugh. Still upsets me. What a player he was. I think only Seba could comfortably say he was a better TFC player than him in our history.
We could have had all 3 as Salcedo was leaving...
Front-office people, too. Poz was the one big change under Bob that they pleaded with him not to pursue, and argued that he'd become part of the DNA of the club. Didn't matter, spoke Spanish (not German, English or Italian), had his own social circle, played primarily offensively instead of as an eight. That was enough. So fucking arrogant, that man. My good lord.
I love the passive tone of voice these front office people use with you. Like they were the victims of someone stealing their car at 3am.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
Oh, I think it's bloody cowardice sometimes. In this case, it wasn't like Bob had it in writing that they couldn't interfere, it was a verbal agreement that they wouldn't. Respect that most of the time, sure, but not when it's your best player.
I made that point, and the answer back was "well, we gave our word, so..." But I've never met anyone in business who didn't at some point have to claim exigent circumstance and go back on a verbal deal, particularly one that clearly undermined at least three other people in management with regularity.
I think generally "passive tone" isn't just reserved for reputation management, it accurately describes how they've approached almost any contentious issue.
Last edited by jloome; 04-16-2024 at 06:49 PM.
che adams is out of contract in the summer.
27 year old, top end championship, bottom half prem level striker. i think he would cook in mls.
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