TFC player 2024 in-season roster discussion

[Mr. Inbetween]

^^/^
I disagree with aspects of this notion. No doubt Herdman and his group would be frustrated; yet so would Hernandez and the FO, including Rubio. IMO, Hernandez, Rubio and even Manning are not going anywhere. Even if the current sitch does implode they should have until at the earliest next summer’s Y25 window or by the end of that season. It does seem Hernandez misspoke. Let’s see if any circumstances are revealed. What the happenstance was. Particularly if the target was not within MLS but a some what similar profile import to recents; hopefully with no connection to yesterday’s development in the EPL. I do not expect Herdman will be given any meaningful control over roster acquisition/spend; that check and balance matter is raw and key. Besides, what lesson would have been learned from that BBradley experience by Manning/MLSE then? I believe JH2 have at least until the upcoming winter window to shine. IIUC, about half the roster is up for renewal/turnover by then. Add into that mix the following of… the already projected/scheduled increase of spend/Apple TV money to the cap budget, the rumoured roster/finance rule and regulation recents updates especially the new DP/U22 algorithm, as well as those two buy-outs and, well, the option for the clubs primary and secondary to undergo a significant transformation to Herdman’s better liking exists ready to be engaged.

[ensco]

Time for some plain speaking.

Hernandez should not have the job. He may be a great guy with potential… talk to me in 2030.

He needs to learn the craft in a winning organization. What on earth can he have learned from Curtis, Bradley and Manning?

He has the job because he is so inexperienced, that he is not a threat to Manning. That's it. That is the reason.

[Ultra & Proud]

^^/^
I disagree with aspects of this notion. No doubt Herdman and his group would be frustrated; yet so would Hernandez and the FO, including Rubio. IMO, Hernandez, Rubio and even Manning are not going anywhere. Even if the current sitch does implode they should have until at the earliest next summer’s Y25 window or by the end of that season. It does seem Hernandez misspoke. Let’s see if any circumstances are revealed. What the happenstance was. Particularly if the target was not within MLS but a some what similar profile import to recents; hopefully with no connection to yesterday’s development in the EPL. I do not expect Herdman will be given any meaningful control over roster acquisition/spend; that check and balance matter is raw and key. Besides, what lesson would have been learned from that BBradley experience by Manning/MLSE then? I believe JH2 have at least until the upcoming winter window to shine. IIUC, about half the roster is up for renewal/turnover by then. Add into that mix the following of… the already projected/scheduled increase of spend/Apple TV money to the cap budget, the rumoured roster/finance rule and regulation recents updates especially the new DP/U22 algorithm, as well as those two buy-outs and, well, the option for the clubs primary and secondary to undergo a significant transformation to Herdman’s better liking exists ready to be engaged.

I don't think the ones mentioned are safe at all. If Herdman manages to keep us in the picture with this roster and performing as well as we are currently then the power dynamic shifts his way, if it already hasn't.

This is TFC and at TFC the main thing always is PR and seats/food/drinks sold.

If Manning was canned would any of these go down = No, probably the opposite
If Hernandez was canned would any of these go down = No
Now if Herdman resigned tomorrow and said the FO/MLSE wasn't supporting him or setting him up to win then that would 100% be a massive negative PR hit and it would affect the numbers and the future plans of MLSE (ie. raising ticket prices).

By all accounts Herdman already has a lot of pull on player acquisition and I'm not saying he would become Bob II and demand everything run through him but I could see him entice the board to hire someone he knows into the presidency or GM spots, maybe a guy like Atiba.

As it stands now I am still not 100% convinced Hernandez can manage the new money or use the buyouts wisely. So far no signs of any of that from him and the next phase is crucial to start our turnaround.

[Ultra & Proud]

Time for some plain speaking.

Hernandez should not have the job. He may be a great guy with potential… talk to me in 2030.

He needs to learn the craft in a winning organization. What on earth can he have learned from Curtis, Bradley and Manning?

He has the job because he is so inexperienced, that he is not a threat to Manning. That's it. That is the reason.

I agree with all of this but will also add in that he is cheap and an easily sourced hire. This is also a TFC factor in doing things; cheap, easy, and lazy.

[SenorDingDong]

As it stands now I am still not 100% convinced Hernandez can manage the new money or use the buyouts wisely. So far no signs of any of that from him and the next phase is crucial to start our turnaround.

I feel like Herdmann is already pulling a lot of strings. Longstaff, Long and Flores were all Herdmann picks for sure.

That said - if this new player wasn't a 100% sure thing Hernandez would have been way better off to say nothing.

[JoesphNdo]

I agree with all of this but will also add in that he is cheap and an easily sourced hire. This is also a TFC factor in doing things; cheap, easy, and lazy.

I think cheap is exactly the reason, and is the reason we'll make alot of decisions in the next few years, sadly.

I don't care too much about his lack of media-savvy, as that isn't a skill that is crucial in building a roster. The latter is to be seen, but so far, not overly impressed. I wouldn't call him a write off, he's working with no budget from his owners and a roster so poorly constructed that anybody would struggle, but the argument that he was never qualified in the first place is not an unfair one.

But today is not a good look, for sure. Let that be a lesson, if you're announcing a signing before the ink is dry they better be on a plane to Toronto and their partner is browsing real estate listings. You're setting yourself up for failure otherwise. Again, for me, I don't particularly care - he can be a complete moron publicly so long as he can assemble a roster - but it doesn't help inspire confidence.

[los sonadores]

Manning, very unfortunately for us, has a long history at the club of hiring the wrong people for the wrong jobs. Vanney was the one who should have been given more control over the roster but instead the sporting director gig was eventually given to Bob. So far Manning has proven to have not made any adequate hires at GM or Sporting Director.

It is difficult to know exactly what is going on with acquisitions, but next to no budget plus an inexperienced GM should mean that we are not succeeding in that regard.

I can’t see that there is anyone else responsible for this mess but Manning. That his only right move is inheriting Herdman as the result of an even more disastrous (or at least a more corrupt) regime in the CSA says a lot.

[reggie]

he has the budget...not to get another dp but apparently enough to get a core player starter according to our gm

[MikeForbes]

I kind of hope we didn't sign anyone. Core Starter has great meme potential like Ali Curtis' "two weeks" slogan and Vanney's "TAM winger".

[SenorDingDong]

I kind of hope we didn't sign anyone. Core Starter has great meme potential like Ali Curtis' "two weeks" slogan and Vanney's "TAM winger".

If it wasn't a sure thing I definitely was good with waiting until the summer as well. We need to hit some home run signings now as we have so many "projects" on the team.

[ag futbol]

Time for some plain speaking.

Hernandez should not have the job. He may be a great guy with potential; talk to me in 2030.

He needs to learn the craft in a winning organization. What on earth can he have learned from Curtis, Bradley and Manning?

He has the job because he is so inexperienced, that he is not a threat to Manning. That's it. That is the reason.

I agree, the setup is entirely ridiculous. He shouldn’t be there and neither should his boss.

I still hold out hope the new guy at MLSE decides to put Manning out to pasture by the end of the season. Undoubtedly Hernandez would be relegated at that point.

[Mr. Inbetween]

I don't think the ones mentioned are safe at all. If Herdman manages to keep us in the picture with this roster and performing as well as we are currently then the power dynamic shifts his way, if it already hasn't. This is TFC and at TFC the main thing always is PR and seats/food/drinks sold. If Manning was canned would any of these go down = No, probably the opposite
If Hernandez was canned would any of these go down = No Now if Herdman resigned tomorrow and said the FO/MLSE wasn't supporting him or setting him up to win then that would 100% be a massive negative PR hit and it would affect the numbers and the future plans of MLSE (ie. raising ticket prices). By all accounts Herdman already has a lot of pull on player acquisition and I'm not saying he would become Bob II and demand everything run through him but I could see him entice the board to hire someone he knows into the presidency or GM spots, maybe a guy like Atiba. As it stands now I am still not 100% convinced Hernandez can manage the new money or use the buyouts wisely. So far no signs of any of that from him and the next phase is crucial to start our turnaround.

I understand the counters. Fair enough. I even can appreciate the doubts about Hernandez; his CV. Yet, then followed with a mention and consideration of Atiba at GM or President; IDK. IIUC, than likely a not him for me by that very same assessment metric.

[jloome]

I kind of hope we didn't sign anyone. Core Starter has great meme potential like Ali Curtis' "two weeks" slogan and Vanney's "TAM winger".

I've sent a couple of contacts a reasonably polite "what the fuck?" notes to see if I can find out what happened. We'll see. I suspect this was another case naiveté in action.

[Thrillos]

I think the only decision Manning made that I can truly fault him for, without the value of hindsight, is brining in Ali Curtis. He should have vetted the likely relationship between him and Vanney more before making that decision. From there Chris Armas was Ali Curtis' fault. I do think that Bob was a good choice, when the choice was made. On paper it looked good, it just failed for all the reasons we now know.

To me Manning's biggest issue was probably listening to MB far too much on the strategic decisions of coaching and management positions. If you think back, literally every decision made smells like it was MB making the calls in the background. Ali Curtis and then Chris Armas are well connected to the Bradleys, then MB's father comes in to take full control. I think this is just far too coincidental.

[Red CB Toronto]

NEWS | Toronto FC sign Andrei Dumitru and Jesús Batiz for Canadian Championship match against @RoversFC_L1O. Jesus made two first team appearances last season.

[Mr. Inbetween]

I agree, the setup is entirely ridiculous. He shouldn’t be there and neither should his boss. I still hold out hope the new guy at MLSE decides to put Manning out to pasture by the end of the season. Undoubtedly Hernandez would be relegated at that point.

TBH, may have missed it, however, I have yet to see any evidence/written statements clearly indicating that for key matters the Franchise Presidents at MLSE do not still report/present before the MLSE Board directly and not to Pelley as the conduit like with Leiweke and unlike with Friisdahl or Devine. Everything I have read seems double speak that he is there certainly dealing in oversight with the entire organization’s daily ops administratively while assessing other matters to understand how best to support each of the leaderships needs and decisions; not necessarily steer or with an immediate power to dismiss/override them. I may be wrong.

[OgtheDim]

I've sent a couple of contacts a reasonably polite "what the fuck?" notes to see if I can find out what happened. We'll see. I suspect this was another case naiveté in action.

Yeh, that's my estimate. They must have been real close and either got skrwed...again or somebody got cold feet.

There is an underlying question here though.

To not have naivete, you have to have somebody with experience doing things or being asked for an opinion. I don't have much issue with Jason Hernandez learning on the job with support around him (support around him seems to be in their case but limited). Most MLS GM's with experience come with a ton of "my way" baggage - see BB. And European GM's have to have a MLS experienced person around as a #2.

But for support, you've got to have senior person (a Wayne Embury type) around who's been and done things. Right now, we don't have that. I would argue that apart from Lieweke, we've never had that - we always had lone gun GMs going back to day 1.

I indicated I didn't think Manning should stay past last year, and this is why. We need a Sporting Director/President whom Commercial people report to - not a Commercial Director/President who Sporting people report to.

This won't be fixed this season but I really do hope it is for next season. Even if Manning doesn't go, and if we make the playoffs, I don't think he will - we need that senior advisor.


I'm not upset with Hernandez that much because there seems to be a plan that isn't "well this worked 10 years ago" - implementation is the issue right now.

[Ultra & Proud]

I kind of hope we didn't sign anyone. Core Starter has great meme potential like Ali Curtis' "two weeks" slogan and Vanney's "TAM winger".

Well he did learn under these two so maybe he wants his own catchphrase registered in TFC lore.

[Phil744]

I Did ask Neil Davidson and he said the following about 10 mins ago.

"Deadline past but still possible for a move working its way though the league office"

[gracos]

Neil Davidson
@NeilMDavidson

Toronto FC acquires Haiti international winger Derrick Etienne Jr. from Atlanta United FC in exchange for up to US$375,000 in general allocation money. Some US$175,000 of the allocation money is conditional on certain performance-based metrics. #TFCLive

12:01 PM · Apr 24, 2024

[Ultra & Proud]

Well they did the trade and I am not overly impressed with Etienne Jr.

[Areathrasher]

Per Bogert, Atlanta are retaining a lot of his cap hit this year and some next year

[MikeForbes]

Etienne has had some flashes of brilliance in MLS, but Atlanta fans seem to really dislike the guy.

[jloome]

He's very talented but has been inconsistent. Had a great year with Columbus that got him his Atlanta deal, then had trouble cracking the starting lineup half the time.

Perhaps he got lost in depth at Atlanta. My general impression of him has been pretty good; fast, tricky, poses danger.

[ag futbol]

I kind of hope we didn't sign anyone. Core Starter has great meme potential like Ali Curtis' "two weeks" slogan and Vanney's "TAM winger".

Classic!

I’ll always remember Mo Johnston’s “we need a defender, a midfielder, and a striker.” So just like, the whole spine of the team? Lol.

[Mr. Inbetween]

Well… That’s a bit left field; Etienne Jr.

[MikeForbes]

I assume on a regular day, Etienne will man Oso's current attacking role and Oso will drop back into the midfield to partner Flores.

For now, Etienne is likely gonna play in Insigne's spot.

[ag futbol]

Yeh, that's my estimate. They must have been real close and either got skrwed...again or somebody got cold feet.

There is an underlying question here though.

To not have naivete, you have to have somebody with experience doing things or being asked for an opinion. I don't have much issue with Jason Hernandez learning on the job with support around him (support around him seems to be in their case but limited). Most MLS GM's with experience come with a ton of "my way" baggage - see BB. And European GM's have to have a MLS experienced person around as a #2.

But for support, you've got to have senior person (a Wayne Embury type) around who's been and done things. Right now, we don't have that. I would argue that apart from Lieweke, we've never had that - we always had lone gun GMs going back to day 1.

I indicated I didn't think Manning should stay past last year, and this is why. We need a Sporting Director/President whom Commercial people report to - not a Commercial Director/President who Sporting people report to.

This won't be fixed this season but I really do hope it is for next season. Even if Manning doesn't go, and if we make the playoffs, I don't think he will - we need that senior advisor.


I'm not upset with Hernandez that much because there seems to be a plan that isn't "well this worked 10 years ago" - implementation is the issue right now.

My issue is front office opportunities in this league seem to be clearly divided between guys who are in the club and those who are out of it.

What about a good old fashioned scout who finds great players that gets elevated in his role and eventually becomes GM? Seems like most of the profiles are the same: ex-players who stuck close to the coaching fraternity and are subsequently welcomed into the fold.

Re: Etienne, I don’t hate it, but if we’re looking for really solid pieces that are around this team for a long time and are true building blocks of the team, I doubt this is it. Hernanades either lost the deal he really wanted or is diluted in describing this trade the way he did.

[Bushmancan]

Confusing because it sounded like we were getting a starter. As a LW…. feels like insurance for Insignia, allows us to play a 4-3-3 (i actually like that). But basically a Shaffelburg for a Junior and what do you do with Spicer?

[ensco]

Etienne has no resemblance to the player Hernandez described. Did they do this just to save face?