Oh, I know he is not going to quit… but i don’t see anything good happening until he is gone. Hope i am wrong, tonight will be an interesting reveal if we have more character than last year. If not need to do something before the 23rd.
Oh, I know he is not going to quit… but i don’t see anything good happening until he is gone. Hope i am wrong, tonight will be an interesting reveal if we have more character than last year. If not need to do something before the 23rd.
Well, as I've mentioned a few times, I've had a few chats with him about things. Based on those, and in the spirit of the thread, I'll say I think there's zero chance we get the striker we want before the mid break.Originally Posted by ensco
As for Manning's role, and the roles of others in acquisition....
My take on this, partly from him and partly from others, is that people don't really understand the role he took over the last five years. Mostly, it could be summed up as "let other people handle the stuff on the pitch, I'll make sure we're making money."
One, he's open about the fact that this is all his fault. He was in charge, and made the decision to allow the front office team to shrink, and for most of the important decisions to be vested with him, Ali Curtis and Jack Dodd. He's not going to resign, because a) he loves his career and thinks he can turn it around and b) he's a middle-aged club president; those sort of opportunities do not come along that often.
But hiring guys he liked rather than based on a past history of success was mistake one. He let them run the football side while he concentrated on the business metrics.
Instead of leaving in the tiers of staff under them that fostered consensus decision making -- the staff who actually forwarded player suggestions and team suggestions -- Curtis and Dodd decided to govern from the top down.... although like typical senior executives, they clearly did not understand the volume of work required, the specificity, and the requirement for follow through.
Given that Ali behaved in exactly the same way at NYRB --and I'm quite certain has people doing everything important for him at MLSNEXTPRO -- it was predictable. If you're outside the bubble of management self-congratulation and recognize the inherent lack of necessity for most corporate governance, it's an old story. Staff and employees do the important work, not senior executives, many of whom get there because of guile and ambition, not ability. They forgot that fairly common reality and we became a walking example of the Peter Principle in action.
They got where they were not through performance but by knowing people in the system. All of them have been working in the U.S. soccer community for more than two decades.
Ali crapped out at New York utterly, Manning arrived at Salt Lake just months before their one win and had NOTHING to do with building that team into a winner. It was there when he got there. Dodd had been our assistant GM/head of scouting for years, but without Lieweke and Bezbatchenko produced nothing on his own that would strengthen us.
So none of the three had a track record of continual and increased success. Bill had success in the NFL with the Eagles business side, Ali had success as a college player. But Bill was also the GM Of Miami Fusion when they contracted the league and folded the franchise.
So there was ample evidence that they were largely unproven as team leaders.
Now, where Manning DID have success was in deciding which role to take. He moved here with a team essentially built to win a title, the same as Salt Lake.
After that? He made the decision to sign Pozuelo and wooed him a little, using the same template as Lieweke with Defoe.
After that? Everything has been downhill.
Here's what I can tell you I've been told by various team people over the last three years:
* Manning had freedom to spend on DPs and to make the decision on who prior to the Italians... technically. He signed Pozuelo on recommendation from people who'd seen him play in Belgium and the belief he would be closest to the Carles Gil-Diego Valeri type DPs who were having success at the time.
He did NOT have to go to the board for approval... but I do get the sense he was expected to tell them about anything big before it happened, which probably means tacitly the same thing, because if they were unhappy with the choices, they would intervene. That is STILL the case.
* The Italians were so expensive and have produced so little relative to cost that he no longer has that freedom. They're not getting a major spend like that without at least taking it to Pelley first. If they sign someone else that doesn't work out on major money, they're probably both gone.
* He did NOT just pick Insigne's name out of "most expensive Italians" on Transfermarkt. They clearly thought that would sell a message to people that we've gone out to replace Giovinco specifically, but he was recommended and agreed on by Dodd and their European scouts (all part-timers, I should note) as a good fit long before Manning took him on a Toronto tour and to dinner.
* Bernardeschi was added as a piece WITH Bob Bradley's blessing, as he'd already agreed to take over when they began shopping for the second DP piece. So from their perspective, they'd already addressed their primary mistake of taking the soccer minds out of the room.
* There were plans to add a DP striker initially but the terrible first full season put the brakes on any unilateral spending.
* At the end of last season, he ate a big ol' shit sandwich of humility and realized that as a sports executive, with little day-to-day operational involvement, he was not qualified to make big signing decisions on his own, in isolation. And giving all that authority to one guy -- Bob -- proved disastrous. His judgement of who to trust was not what he thought it was.
* They gambled Bob's management was the reason for LA's success, and that perhaps giving him the opportunity others hadn't, to pick his own players, would be the step that made Bradley a title winner again. In fact, the exact opposite was true -- he wouldn't have gotten anywhere without the players LA signed without his input and the exact opposite happened. They realized a few months into his tenure that things were going wrong, before we'd even cratered completely. I am told that efforts to get Bob to involve others and accept help in recruitment and development were met with absolute stubbornness. "We thought he would be progressive and amenable to discussion and consensus," one team official told me. "Instead, we got completely shut out."
* Bob's decision to shut out Dodd and others led to the few remaining support staff leaving for other roles.
* Realizing how much we'd lost internally since Bez was here, in the offseason Manning added multiple tiers of day-to-day responsibility specifically revolving around scouting, player development, youth development and rehab. They've put back in, effectively, the structure that Bezbatchenko had in place when Bill arrived.
Now, having said all of that -- and admitting that I both like the guy and that he's really trying -- I think he's clinging to the role. They have to have some success this year. If we don't make the playoffs, I think he might be gone, based on conversations with a few others.
He hired Herdman, who was not their initial pick, because Herdman specializes in getting the most out of an existing squad and they have NO wiggle room. Herdman laid out a plan to do much better with what they already have, on the promise that as money became available, he could improve the team.
They've signed too many underachieving youths to senior contracts, and too many senior players that are overvalued. So there is very little room left to change anything right now.
But they CANNOT fuck up any major signings or heads will roll. So we're not getting a striker until they're DEAD CERTAIN the player will a) not be a dick b) stay healthy c) score 15 plus goals as season. As you can imagine, with realistically only TAM money to spend, that is not an easy remit.
But it will be MUCH easier with another $1M in GAM. So it won't happen until the mid break changes.
Last edited by jloome; 04-13-2024 at 12:11 PM.
^That is a ton of interesting stuff there, thanks. It makes sense.
I am more amazed that he is still there, than I was before, having read that. I mean, this is the biography of an otherwise decent person (I am genuinely impressed by his self awareness) in completely the wrong job.
Manning has, literally, no expertise in what he is doing, and has demonstrated no ability to grow. He learned nothing from watching an otherwise successful operation for 5 years.
It is an MLS thing, the “Chris Klein” effect. Manning has mastered the art of making ownership comfortable, in these situations where the bosses spend 95% of their time elsewhere.
Last edited by ensco; 04-13-2024 at 12:48 PM.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
^^ thanks for this and I am sure he is a nice guy, but if your president is afraid to make a decision. It impacts everyone!! Waiting for failure and next season is not a solution. If you can’t pull the trigger to do something big then let Herdman and even Hernandez rebuild. Unfortunately, Manning is a lame duck and needs to be replaced with someone without fear of failure.
btw. This is in season roster discussion, we need to fix this
Last edited by Bushmancan; 04-13-2024 at 12:52 PM.
This is two-thirds of the league. It's why Greg Kerfoot is still in Vancouver despite years of incompetency.
Boards in this league are disconnected from the culture and passion for the game. They care about one thing and one thing only, the bottom line. As a Toronto team in an under-served sport, they had a guarantee of 80%-plus season seat sales the moment the league introduced DPs (coinciding with us entering).
Change is only forced in MLS when fans start boycotting, Ala LA.
This league is full of nice guys who won't make waves and will accept continual, top-down interference, whether from MLS head office or their own board.
I'd say he's learned a lot just from the admission and about-face on the structure ... he just had to bottom out to the point that it may be too late to do anything about it.
And I'd be lying if I say I didn't get the impression even now that he's too trusting of reading people over metrics.
Last edited by jloome; 04-13-2024 at 01:00 PM.
Being blunt, I've a hard time believing he's learned anything given this winter. He spent all our money on a fan service signing (a great player! But still) in the one position we were strong in while we had CPL level strikers. And it's not just that that was a bad signing, it's that it's EXACTLY the thought process that's typified all of his big signings since we reupped a finished Jozy. Zero foresight, zero long term thinking, zero anything beyond "this will make people happy today".
That shows me a man who has learned absolutely nothing. It's the same pattern, same thought process, same everything since 2019 and he can't see why it keeps failing. This is not a man learning anything.
Last edited by JoesphNdo; 04-13-2024 at 01:31 PM.
All he has to do now is give me a goal scorer, a red home kit and I will be temporarily happy…
Last edited by Bushmancan; 04-13-2024 at 01:44 PM.
No, he didn't. He's not signing anyone in isolation, dude. It's just not happening.
He's not deciding who they sign right now. Herdman is, based on a list he's developing with Rubio, Hernandez and Herdman's team.
I imagine they looked at a combination of things including goal creation. They were trying to get more goals out of the Italians and, knowing that, thought creating chances in the box could be left to the wingbacks. If they get Owusu up to 5-8 goals for the year from a ton of low crosses, and Kerr similar, they get 10-16 goals from the striker position while on a strict budget.
That's why they've also brought Spicer along so quickly.
Yes, we need a striker. But a chance to lock up Richie, who we know is going to create 8-10 goal a year and probably bag a few as well, for less-than-DP money wasn't going to come along again. He had other offers.
It's easy to say he's a mistake when the guy who was scoring for us, Insigne, goes down four games in and Richie goes down in his first game.
But if that doesn't happen, we probably have three or four more goals by now, at least three more points, and no one would be nearly as worried about where the goals are coming from. (And we would still need a striker).
I just don't buy it. When you see the same thing over and over and over and over again, actions speak far louder than whatever their saying. That signing smashes the MO we've seen since 2019. I don't think there's even a 1% chance we make that signing if it doesn't have the fan service angle. From a roster need perspective it makes no sense. From a "every major roster decision we've made since 2019" sense it is a 100% fit.
If someone does the same thing over and over and over, their apologies simply don't mean anything. The actions speak too loud.
I was convinced we were signing Richie long before we did, and not because it made any sense from a roster need perspective. And I thought it was a mistake and always did long before any injuries, while also thinking Richie could be our MVP. It's a great signing in non MLS leagues, and an bad one for us in MLSA
Last edited by JoesphNdo; 04-13-2024 at 03:07 PM.
Appreciate all the detail and I generally get the impression despite your rationalization in areas, you would share the same opinion as everyone else here that he's certainly more than made enough mistakes to fired.
Personally, I just can't say very much positive about the guy in terms of his effectiveness as a manager. I think he wears it all, on-field performance and off. That's the nature of being the president. But even if we just focus on the things he claims are his, the picture does not look good:
- The incident with the Montreal fans. How security ops can't be sorted out with this football team by now I have no idea. We have gone through these sort of "oops" moments with so many security firms over the years. The club never seems to sort it out or monitor the performance of the security firms we hire to a sufficient level. That was a major black eye for this team at all levels.
- Not having sufficient internal controls to have Bob to prevent clearly sort-sighted and awful moves.
- Multiple jersey launches that were frankly, dogshit.
My general take: he's old and not the exception to the rule type-of-guy who keeps modern with age. Management style feels very outdated. Whether he was ever a manager of substance in MLS is questionable. There's really nothing to suggest he's good at this today. If we went and fired him, he'd probably comment that he thought it was coming a long time ago.
Last edited by ag futbol; 04-13-2024 at 03:43 PM.
We can talk about how we don’t have cap space, flexibility, whatever you want. Jloome alluded to it regarding bringing people back… the one thing missing from bringing a real club structure back is any kind of senior individual with the intelligence to create flexibility. I’m not saying Hernandez is unintelligent, I’m saying that the best executives in cap or financially constrained leagues are those who understand their sport and (massively emphasized) the regulatory framework they operate in.
If you’ve got no one who can opportunistically understand their constraints, then you’ve already started behind the 8-ball and therefore “have no flexibility”.
Everyone has flexibility. Saying you don’t, means you’ve not explored your opportunities properly.
(I will now take my cynicism and slowly sink back into the background)
Last edited by portu; 04-13-2024 at 07:42 PM.
One of the best, most accurate posts I’ve read on here in a long time.
When Bez came in I distinctly recall a number of “water into wine” type transactions that he pulled off. I completely understand what you’re trying to say and you’re absolutely right. That’s not to say that it’s easy, but it’s definitely possible with the right people in charge.
This is true. But Bez didn't have a string of fuck ups to wear making him trigger shy, which I guarantee you they will be.
Let's add a number 8 to the shopping list for the summer.
cant wait for the summer...do something now
I"d prefer a dangerous 10, and drop Osorio back into an 8 role. Him next to Longstaff with Flores behind them, and Insigne and a new 10 under the striker.
But practically we probably need someone who can do both at higher level than what we've got. We need the flexibility.
Cap league means sometimes that flexibility is not there - especially if you have some cruddy contracts to deal with.
We are not the only team that has run into this in the past
DCU with Rooney
LAFC under Bradley his last year
Austin last year
Let’s not forget some of his late stage signings included Gregory Van Der Wiel and Ager Aketxe. Two eye wateringly bad and expensive flops. He’s certainly rebounded after but when he walked my thought was TFC might not sign someone better because of our budget shrinking but otherwise I felt pretty open to trying someone else. Perhaps the wrong call in retrospect or maybe Bez is a better President than GM.
i agree.i think we also need another CB
Yeah, I'm not really convinced by Gomis. I think he's a little too young and Rosted is a little too aggressive. We ideally need a number two who can be number one when Long is out.
I don't know if they'll have the space/money for three players, but ideally we'd get a fast, competent striker, a quick and skilful midfielder and another solid centre back.
Then we're more heavily covered if injuries continue to take guys out weekly.
Yes to all 3. We need a second Kevin Long, someone better then Coello or Thompson for midfield and to ditch Akinola / Mailula and get a competent striker.
looking at player contracts expiring this offseason:
long
SJ
prince
o'neill
ranjitsingh
akinola
servania
perruzza
mabika
JMR
kobe
kerr
kosi
gavran
coello
i reckon they don't extend:
SJ (too expensive, not getting any younger)
akinola
perruzza
kosi
up in the air:
servania (see how he is when he comes back in the summer)
long (has been solid, but age not on his side and i'm sure he wasn't first choice. if club in a better spot can potentially get someone younger for that role)
potential for a ton of cap space to be available very soon especially with new roster rules coming in the summer.
Hopefully this gets implemented before Oso's contract comes due again.
Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/tombogert/status/1779869236258590771
This stuff to me is so silly.
DP's
Icons
U-22
TAM
GAM
Just raise the damn salary cap so players can build better teams and it solves all the above anyway.
What?!! I wish they would get rid of these niche rules. Just up the cap. Makes the league look ridiculous. I can't wait for the first Icon Player spot transfer.
Charlie Sharp scored in his first start for TFC II, a nice poke into the corner off a rebound.
Enough with all these crazy rules. Just make it a flat $20 million cap with max salary $4 million [20% of the cap] + 1 DP (for the Messi's, Insigne's, etc who make over $4 million)*
*with a grandfather clause for teams with two DPs over $4 million currently like they did for Landon Donovan when the "Beckham rule/DPs" was introduced.
Last edited by rydermike; 04-15-2024 at 11:21 AM.
They didn't even bring the Idol thing to a vote in the end, according to the Athletic. It will be discussed more in the fall. The consensus seemed to be the managers didn't want a change that seemed entirely designed to keep Carlos Vela at LAFC.
I suspect it will be
O'Neill
Ranjitsingh
Akinola
Servania
Perruzza
Mabika
Thompson
I think they'll keep Johnson but try to renew him on less money due to his age. Gavran is only 23, which is still early for a keeper to step up. And Johnson has some leadership aspects as well.
I think they keep JMR and Kobe Franklin because they've shown enough. Unless he shows more as a six/eight, I suspect Thomson hasn't, nor has Peruzza, nor has Mabika. Servania has never developed into the player he was expected to be but will probably get a chance elsewhere.
The rest have shown enough to at least stay as backups and keep working upwards.
I think Sean Johnson should be a decision based on how he looks in the second half of the season. I'd love to find a way to keep him for at least another season, unless his form really drops.
How much are Prince and Long on? Keeping the former if he's paid like a starter in this league would be nuts, imo. He's not a starting 9 on a good team in this league, and we need to start being ruthless and understand the decisions being in a salary gap league necessitate. Long is very much price dependent.
Just on the Manning wish-list replacement discussion, is there any high-level league with a cap in Europe that we could coax to cross the pond to take over once Manning is gone? I was thinking maybe an executive from Bundesliga (or the Championship?) might be able to adapt their knowledge of how to play under the Financial Fair Play rules they have over there with the Salary Cap leagues over here.
But then I'm reminded that MLS exists to build not just domestic players but also domestic executives and coaching, so I get the feeling that MLS might kibosh any transaction they felt detracted from the leagues core mission.
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