Agree.Originally Posted by SenorDingDong
Agree.
Yeah given the circumstances, if you are herdman and trying to find ways to motivate a player and cater to their end wants/desires while also getting something out of it, I don't know how that isn't the selling point. 'Look Berna, we understand you wanted to head back home, and at the same time we'd like to see a little more production out of our player up front because we just can't seem to buy goals or anyone to run into space to finish those tap ins or make plays in front of the net and work the ball with anyone else on the pitch. You're going to look hell of a lot more attractive to your home clubs if you can come in hot here to start the season, play for us up top and/or work off another striker in the middle - and bang in a pile of goals and assists for us. Maybe then we get more traction on a deal that works out for both sides come the summer window - but its a positional change and a small compromise that should help you get more options to help with your ideal next steps, and its going to help us build some momentum and positive morale for the locker room having a top tier italian up top helping drive our offense and us starting the season with some good wins.'
If ur looking to turn negatives into positives... get a player clearly looking to increase his stock and eyes so he can find a landing spot... I dunno how that isn't their plan. Surely sitting in the middle in his fiorentina role and smashing in bunch of tap ins or setting up assists is gonna look better for the agent to make some moves then him just slapping his thigh out wide and yelling into his stomach when a play doesn't go as planned. We have a bigger threat up top who should be hungry to produce if he knows banging in goals means more options in the summer to head home (hopefully), someone who directly works in same direct passing space as insigne, should be more goals and setups and get us at least a few more wins which gets the clubhouse morale back into a positive bump and at least feeling like they can get into a winning mentality. Especially given our Striker pool... lol... its worth the punt
Since that sort of prompts a followup of hypothetically what if he's put into a striker/shadow role and he turns into a reformed peak Ronaldo when he went from out wide to striker/target guy, and starts banging in goals left right n center... then we can't get rid of him then right?. I'd argue to still move him even if that ever actually panned out because he's clearly been ripping situps and getting shredded all off season with the motivation to get back to italy at any cost. I don't think he wants to be here any longer then is necessary.
Last edited by FiveThreeTwo; 01-17-2024 at 11:35 PM.
I think the story might have been a bit different if we’d had a genuinely good striker who the Italians trusted. Another major mistake… but then, that probably wasn’t going to happen after the primary mistake which was to put together Bob as coach and sporting director with the Italians. That’s got to be on Manning.
Anyway, we now have a coach who doesn’t usually play with wingers…although, no doubt, we still need at least one striker who can put the ball in the net.
That's my thinking. These two although perhaps they've regressed a bit for whatever reason ... age, motivation etc. ... they're still decent talents. What we've been expecting out of them isn't their forte. Both of these players not only played for their country, they played for the European Champions. While being selected for that team they filled a certain role. That role was more than likely their strongest role in THAT team environment. We AREN'T playing them in their strongest role because we're not asking them to do that. If they DO do that, they get shit on because we're losing and they aren't scoring goals. Either sign a striker that they trust and play to their strengths or ship them out and let Herdman tell Hernandez to sign his own DP's that fit their idea of the two or three strongest needs for a team playing THEIR system.
Yeah, I think this was the main point of contention between the Italians and Bob: the sense of what football should be. This was what Bernie meant when he said “we don’t play football”. A lot of what happened after that was secondary to the main problem.
There is no reason why the two Italians cannot look reasonably good in this league. Not likely that they look 20 million a season good for reasons already detailed in this board (though what the hell does that look like in MLS? Often the biggest contracts go to the names with the most marketing power rather than to the most effective players). I’m hoping that Herdman can put them in a solid structure in which we can enjoy watching them play. It really sucks to see that much talent looking so meagre.
This is basically why Bob was fired.
There were a couple of the games at the end of his reign where the Italians worked really hard, created a ton of chances and still we didn't score. One of those in particular -- it might have been his last game, or the one before -- the buzz in the front office was "we should be better than this."
I was talking to my contact around then and his take was that Bob's system just wasnt' working, but Bob was steadfastly refusing to change it, at all.
According to a recent interview with Jesus Jimenez, multiple veteran players went to him and said the system didn't fit the roster, and they should collectively work out something that did, but he just had no interest. Pozuelo and Salcedo were then seen as troublemakers and asked if they'd rather play elsewhere.
It was basically "my way or the highway."
If a manager has multiple options, multiple looks, they can be a dictator and probably should be. But if their system is a "total football" style philosophy of taking advantage of any given situation, without any prescribed or planned buildup or attack, that doesn't leave a lot of other options when the players can't execute it.
I suspect one of our biggest issues last year, our lack of midfield speed and grit, will be well served by getting in a full-time anchor. We probably need at least one more, in case, as no one else on our roster (outside perhaps Rosted, who played some DM when younger) fits the bill.
From The Guardian " Things for Each MLS Team to be Hopeful For This Year"
Toronto FC
Reason to hope: Ambition isn’t the problem
Say what you will about Toronto FC’s current roster (fine, I’ll say it: it’s really bad), but one thing you can’t say about Toronto FC is that they’re afraid of taking risks. The club is consistently among the league’s biggest spenders. Toronto’s genuine ambition to be a top club in MLS should give fans hope for a quick improvement after last year’s Wooden Spoon.
So, if MLSE has decided to cut spending the one thing we have to look forward to isn't even really a thing...
Hopefully we can look forward to Manning finally being fired after wrecking this club for the immediate future.
https://www.theguardian.com/football...s-hopeful-2024
Last edited by woolly; 01-18-2024 at 09:07 AM.
Spending does not equal ambition.
Since the Liewicke period it certainly has.
Interesting to hear Amy Walsh et al on the Footy Podcast today talking about how important a positive club culture is. It's telling that Herdman is leaving the tactical system to the next camp.
He seems to be making the calculation that it's not that complicated to teach a system to pro-level players, but as she suggested, if they don't like each other, no system is going to work.
She did argue though that the Italians may not have the character, as individuals, to retain a "leadership" example when things go badly.
And I don't think it's the plus Herdman does that Bernardeschi reportedly wept in their conversations "such was his passion" for making this work.
As a guy who doesn't have great emotional self-control (or much at all. Thanks ADHD, you joyless fuck...) I can tell you that deeply passionate people can create great things when buying in. But when we're out, we (as Walsh put it) will suck the energy out of a room in a second.
Ultimately, so far, this season is exactly what it appears: the front office's last big gamble on their choices. If the Italians don't come good, we're fucked. If Herdman can't mould the remaining $7M worth of players (we have the lowest cost roster by far when you take out the DPs) into a germ, we're fucked.
And in either case, if we don't make the playoffs this year, I suspect Bill Manning will be fired, possibly everyone else in the front office.
I have to say, though, I think Herdman has something. His methodological approach seems exhaustingly complete, from building player character and desire to adjusting tactically to what he's got.
But if they don't perform, it's possible that won't matter. We won't have the cap space -- or trade interest -- to bring in the handful of impact players who could turn it around.
Maybe our best bet, early going, is that Jakheel turns it on. I'd hate to give away or trade a great young player, but if he lived up to 75% of his stated potential, we could probably package him with some other players as make weights, clear a lot of salary off the books and give ourselves the wiggle room to rebuild.
Equally good would be Ayo coming in looking like he was before his knee injury. I don't think he was ever going to be better than a 10-15 a year striker, even at his best. But if he can get on a scoring roll -- or any of these strikers -- we can sell them, clear space, get someone more reliable.
We're almost so tied up that we have to hope we can sell whoever's playing best, as most of them aren't our ideal long-term starters.
Last edited by jloome; 01-18-2024 at 02:22 PM.
Still think a lot gets resolved attitude wise by no MB. Suffering fools was not his style.
Reply to a post from ‘2023-2024 General TFC/MLS Banter’…
For myself depends if any/who is the further CB relief. Given TFC’s state, I will for now value slightly more the defense over the attack. When Hedges was participating the club was at least, for the most part, still competitive/in matches. Otherwise a DPIV of Yeye and Coello essentially keeps Oso off the pitch, only as a sub to them or the sub behind Lollo if he in turn is used by Herdman in any hole role. Or in that position as a starting AMF if Fede and Lollo demand to continue to be used as the/two starting forwards again this season; which obviously has not worked so far. Oso does seem to be the odd man out. Also, IIRC, when Oso was healthy for CMNT selection, he has not always made pitch appearances, maybe about over half the time, as a starter/sub for Herdman; not the always guy?
Last edited by Mr. Inbetween; 01-19-2024 at 04:50 AM.
Torino football journalist Nicola Balice suggesting Bernardeschi agent Beppe Bozzo meeting now/today with Juve for his transfer!
Doesn't make any sense for me for Juve to go for him now. Juve was struggling bad last season and early this one but they have really turned it around. Now almost back to top of SerieA, winning every game.
If he does go there, he's not going to see any minutes.
I suppose it would be a 6 month loan at best if he does go to fill in for injuries.
Why would TFC bother to do that though? I would rather have him playing for us if we are stuck with him on our books and not going to some other club to fill in for injuries just to have him come back here mid season. There is only a downside for TFC in that scenario unless I am missing something.
Them doing well may make it easier for them to do a favour to berna than otherwise. He will be superfluous. If we can get proper loan terms, my guess would be 18 Months with a purchase trigger based on appearances, we have totally freed up the DP spot. We can then go and do as we please with the Italian we actually want.
Having a two free DP spots for Herdman may be able to make a great difference to this team. I'm all for it if it can possibly happen. If not we're are back to trying to Herdman the same group into winners.
I am much more in favour of a 3-5-2 with insigne as a shadow striker than a 3-4-3 with both Italians as trequartistas.
Hopefully this is a rumour with legs and not berna wishcasting.
Last edited by bought with blo; 01-19-2024 at 12:16 PM.
Recent rumors I heard about this were that Jordan Henderson was messing up any postential loan deal but that's now sorted with him going to Ajax. Before that the negotiations between TFC & Juve were taking time because they wanted a 6 month loan and we were pushing for them to take him for 18 months. Not sure about the money involved but for sure we'd be eating a lot. The FO (Manning) most likely figure after 18 months his buyout would look more palatable for the MLSE bean counters.
I think if Fede goes to Juve it happens with some sort of finagling of MLS rules. Is it us using the buyout on him, without paying the full amount of his deal? Is it something else? It is probably in the league's interest to invent a rule to resolve this.
if we don’t get the DP spot free and clear, it ain’t happening.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
Unfortunately, I don't think TFC is getting any favours from MLS after the whole BB thing.
Heck I'm no conspiracy theorist but I'm even inclined to believe that MLS FO had a hand in Bogart running that Athletic piece.
Given his history of wading into online debates and defending his father online (both he and Jeff his uncle have done so) I'm inclined to believe the stuff about the Italians was from Michael.
I know for a fact that at least two of the named sources in the story -- and I'm not going to go further than that -- gave them a lot more than was openly attributed to them.
Hold on a sec - Michael Bradley wading into online debates and defending his father online? That was a thing?
Yeah, when he was fired from the US National team. He got in to a prolong spat with both fans and his former teammate Jimmy Conrad. His uncle Jeff piped up on some dispute about his brother online, too, though I forget the details now.
Michael also tried to organize a player coup against Jurgen Klinsmann, made public by Clint Dempsey, who said he refused to go along with it. He was an arch competitor but I get the sense he liked a strong sense of control and the family sticks closely together. In retrospect, having them in the same dressing room was sort of insane.
I just went back and reread that Athletic article. My favourite forgotten bit was Fede asking the team to match Insigne's salary at the end of 2022.
That was just a wild level of dysfunction described in that story. Historic.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
Absolutely fractured power dynamic. Overpaid players with egos, a father son manager/captain who are equally self-confident and utterly inflexible, a front office not really paying attention.
That Jimenez interview was telling. It just fell apart more each week as each party tried to dig in and ignore the other. The players were trying to get Bob to bend to their will tactically, and he was trying to imprint absolute authority.
Bob was the kind of manager who tells you you can't vape in the dressing room and gives you one strike before a fine.
I suspect Herdman is the type who would start by asking why you vape there, before discussing whether or not it's a good idea.
They're two senior players; even if they weren't egotistical and with previous success, they would probably take umbrage to "my way or the highway" hard-ass, Bruce Arena school of coaching. Heath Pierce and other former Bob players have talked about the fact that he could be so stern and demanding he'd just burn guys out.
So imagine you're an Italian Nat coming of a European championship. Suddenly, a guy whose biggest job on his CV was getting fired at Swansea after 19 games is barking in your face.
He wanted MMA fighters, they're karate masters. He wanted high-energy pressure, chaos in the box to score from the most dangerous spots. They're coming from synchronized offences that patiently wait until a defender makes a small mistake.
It was just a recipe for disaster. Then, into that blender, throw their teammate and captain being his son, and the complete absence of trust that would engender.
Yikes.
Give our refusal to sign a 3rd DP, I don't think the DP slot matters. Any deal that sees us financially on the hook for all or most of his wages makes no sense on our end, so I just don't buy any loan that doesn't involve us transferring his wages. So I;m very very skeptical about this line of thinking, as I just don't see what we gain (Maybe some cap space I guess to spend on the cap hit his DP slot takes? Is that enough?)
His biggest burden to us is financial, not regulatory, from my perspective
There was a refusal to sign a third DP under BB. There might already have been a mandate to perform with what you have for now. If you are successful with what you have, we will give you more. If you fail with what you have we will not give you carte blanche to sign a new DP.
The reticence might not have been signing a third DP, it might have been having BB sign one. Once the season was in the tank it makes little sense to make a big name signing until you see what you have with the new coach and what he wanted
If Hernandez can get rid of Berna it will be something of a coup. Unless someone has some insider info saying the purse strings are closed, I won't believe it. MLSE has money to burn. As has been noted before the team salary is a rounding error for them.
The board may be asking certain things of Hernandez, him having to prove competence before being given blank cheques. I am willing to wait and see how this window proceeds. The primary transfer window is open so long. We have got a lot of time yet.
Never forget, they have made around a 7400% increase in the value of the team since purchase. I really don't think eating 10-15 million in salary is a problem.
Last edited by bought with blo; 01-19-2024 at 02:13 PM.
It absolutely matters to them! They didn't get that 7,400% increase by spending on wages, and they'll see it that way, too. They don't care how much it increased by, they care about whether the teams roster spending is a positive ROI or not, and it's pretty inescapable to reach the conclusion it's not
Put another way, we could free upa DP slot right now, today, but it's very clear from the messaging that we are NOT in the market for a DP. So opening a further slot, while not removing the financial burden of the contract, doesn't seem to present us with any other options we don't currently have. From where I'm sitting, it's clear willingness to spend is preventing us buying another DP, not the lack of a DP slot. Further evidence of that, to me, is they just didn't use their buy out last year - why? We have endless candidates for it. It's likely* because they don't want to keep throwing money down a toilet on this team.
I could see us buying another one if we rid ourselves of one or, ideally, both of our boat anchor contracts, but a move that moves either DP away without that doesn't gain us a single thing other than the very small consolidation of we get back the cap room their DP contract takes.
Basically, we already have a DP slot in theory and we aren't using it, so what good is a second one? I just don't see what we have to gain with any option that doesn't involve the financial burden being relieved
*There is the small possibility I wouldn't dismiss that we used it on Bradley and to save face on both sides haven't announced this. I will grant that is another possible reading of it, but there's no evidence to support it as of yet
Last edited by JoesphNdo; 01-19-2024 at 02:27 PM.
Hernandez has mentioned the possibility of buying down Oso. The only reason to buy down Oso would be to use that DP spot on another player. Makes it sound like it is a possibility. We may not be close to signing a significant player, or things may be close to the vest ATM.
Again we are not privy to the reasons behind decisions.
As to team value. The change from 10 million to 750 million, is completely separate from spending. Whether the team makes 10 million or loses 10 million in a year is, in terms of team value, inconsequential. It is however, consequential to attendance. If they can get a better performing team they will get better attendance. If we loan Berna, and get a third DP, we still have the option of buying out Berna and signing a third. Until the window closes we have no idea how this is going to play out.
Given the MLS black box we have no way of knowing if last year's buyout was used. We have no idea what it may or may not be used on this year. I am a naturally optimistic person. I am looking for the best way this could work out.
I personally don't understand the logic of MLSE stopping spending. It makes so little sense. Winning teams can definitely be bought. They have proven this. Not trusting the current people with unlimited resources until they prove competent is simply prudent. We are building trust. If the team performance improves, I would imagine budget grows with that performance. JMHO.
This is where I think we're at. They'll spend but the faith in Manning and the current staff identifying talent is very low now and I think they'd like to see some proper management of funds spread throughout the roster and have some players show signs of development rather than just keep writing cheques to cover all the bad moves and buy PR. There has to come a point where enough is enough and either you sink or swim and Manning & Hernandez are there now. Rubio has time still. I think the others are on the clock.
Last edited by Ultra & Proud; 01-19-2024 at 03:55 PM.
If we buy down oso and get a DP, Awesome, I hadn't heard that
But just to be clear - this is *not* how businesses look at finance. Our growth is completely divorced from our spend. It's almost completely coincidental.
Imagine an investor opens a restaurant in some crap hole town, and they buy the building because it's dirt cheap. Over many years they have had a series of managers, all utterly incompetent except one. They have flushed money down the toilet, outspending every nearby restaurant, while not even coming close to even matching their success
Coincidentally, at the same time, the town discovers oil and a huge influx of people come in. Suddenly, this building is prime real estate, and the owners have made magnitudes more than their investment
That does not mean they look at their manager flushing millions of dollars down the toilet and think 'but look how much money they made'. They absolutely, still, will demand this manager shows them a positive return on that spending. If they prove incapable of doing so, they either move on, or cut the spending. They don't just not sweat the money they're throwing away. The best, most successful, restaurants in town are spending a fraction of what we are.
In other words, operating the restaurant has lost them money. It's just by coincidence a part of their investment has ballooned in value. But that doesn't mean operating the restaurant won't be seen as something that has lost them money. We are that restaurant. Operations wise, we've lost money, even if the investment overall is in the plus, because they could have run us like Chicago and gotten 99.99% of the return
So all that is to say I just don't believe they'll have a YOLO attitude to our spending as they buy another yacht, because the spending didn't get them their return. And I truly do not believe we have anything close to the capital to say "Yeah, see those tens of millions we spent on the DPs I promised would change the world that flopped while we finished dead last? We want you to put that money in a shredder. Also, can we have another eight figure injection? I promise this time it'll totally work". I just can't see that pitch landing. If it does, man, I have to find a way to get a job at MLSE because there's no way I'd authorize another cent to goto Bill Manning at this point and I'd love to work in a place that cares that little about results
Anyway, we'll see. I just don't see what opening a DP slot without losing the financial obligation nets us, but maybe MLSE are in it for another money black hole and have two big DPs in the budget on top of what we're already spending. I'd love to be wrong. I didn't think they'd spend what they did on Insigne, so I may well be wrong. I just don't see it.
Last edited by JoesphNdo; 01-19-2024 at 04:02 PM.
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