TFC 2023-2024 player off-season roster discussion

[FiveThreeTwo]

They just seem to fail on every front. I've never seen a company this large with communications this poor. It's egregious. If I was still teaching it in j-school, I'd fail the fucking lot of them.

The inability to handle the media, to understand the pitfalls of buying high in football, to understand that the fan experience requires attention, to understand the culture.

We have the worst owners in the league, I think, other than their willingness to occasionally spend vast sums, usually on players who aren't worthy of it.

I'm not having the greatest day, mood-wise.

Reminds me of my earlier project manager years, and working along side hotshot 'learning as we go' PM's that got bogged down into the semantics, political games and frameworks and completely couldn't see the forest for the trees when it came to what the core purpose or "output" was to their jobs. They'd regurgitate textbook frameworks, play the office games and time and time again they'd be confused why things weren't working out- all while thinking their shit didn't stink and they run the show. They'd get so bogged down in the frameworks, and keeping their head down to get things over the line to satisfy PMO and client targets, that they failed to remember they were building this work for "Someone". A third party who was waiting for the finished product; along with expected updates along the way, confirmations everything is going as planned (if there would be any lags, or if anything needed to pivot quickly before the next iteration were to start so they don't invest in stupid money just to fail). Heck - even getting feedback with the "customer" to make sure the amount of communication and engagement was just right. They failed to realize the importance of stakeholder engagement and proper communication along the entire journey of the transformation- they thought they could just hide behind a cubical, bury their heads in the work and didn't have to pick up a phone, could stick their fingers in their ears, and didn't have to do any of the things mentioned previously to keep the relationship strong, ease and check expectations, and make sure things were still as dialed in as the first day the project started with the customer.

This FO gives off that vibes. The rookie "I'll fake it to make and fall and learn hard as I go" - type, except they aren't learning and collecting feedback at all lol. Their heads are stuck in the sand and seemingly have 0 awareness of their lack of outward management of comms/content/check-ins with every stakeholder that supports this team (baring sponsors prob lol). This was one of the worst parts for me at least during the BB era and even the season before he was canned; in fact its been like this since the start of Curtis/Armas era. If its a top down directive by Manning- then he's clearly missing an entire module in his career development learning about the importance of the above topic lol. Oooo we get some social media clips from training and a few delayed and heavily scripted type pressers from herdman.

Other than that tho, for me personally i'm still buying into herdman and i'm hoping him and his crew can turn water into wine and it's less about lack of talent - and more about just getting more swagger and good vibes and buy-in back into the squad. I got a bit off topic there from the player-offseason stuff and prob should went in TFC general banter but yeah I understand the underlying frustration lol.

[ag futbol]

I buy into Herdman. It will be great when he gets to work for other people.

The rest of them are just old horses waiting for their trip to the glue factory.

[MikeForbes]

Less than a month to go until we play Cincinnati and only one official incoming transfer.

[jloome]

Less than a month to go until we play Cincinnati and only one official incoming transfer.

European window closes soon, I believe. If we haven't shed Fede by the end of January, it probably ain't happening, although possibly still on loan. Wouldn't help us at all, unless they also picked up his wage.

[buddies]

When Defoe left Jozy came the other way. Maybe they want a swap deal with someone coming the other way to make the money work ...

[Bushmancan]

^only way this makes any sense. And the person has to want to be here. This team is not that bad, just atrocious attitude under BM & BB. Never have I seen a team quit after 1 goal allowed like last year’s team. Shame…

[Phil744]

European window closes soon, I believe. If we haven't shed Fede by the end of January, it probably ain't happening, although possibly still on loan. Wouldn't help us at all, unless they also picked up his wage.

Fede was in the lastest TFC twitter vid ...

[jloome]

Fede was in the lastest TFC twitter vid ...

Oh, I have no idea if the Lazio/Juve stuff has any foundation and suspect not. But he's the only one being discussed at any media level.

And even if they were about to move him, they have to maintain the professional outward team building, in case it fell through and they were stuck with him.

The problem is, most deals are probably loan requests where the best we get back is his cap hit. Without a deal to buy or another player back, it's hard to see how he doesn't just wind up back here in six months, even harder to move.

The alternative is they play him, get a system that's at least competitive going and he comes around.

I'm not sure we have the interest for the former or the players for the latter.

[JoesphNdo]

I don't believe any of the media rumours around him tbh, most likely explanation is its his agent trying to drum up interest

I could be wrong but I can't see a single conceivable plan for him to leave that makes any sense that doesn't involve him willing taking a very large pay cut. If he's willing to do that, sure, it could work but otherwise I don't see it.

A swap deal makes less sense, again I could look silly, but his market value is literally less than 0. We'd have to pay to move him. So there isn't much incentive for another team to give up a penny or an asset for him, unless they happen to also have a very unhappy player or were willing to do cash plus fede which I also don't see

Basically, I think we're stuck with our current DPs, and always have been. Id absolute love to be wrong though. Maybe professional pride and a will to play beats out the financial side for him, we can hope

[ensco]

I don’t see him as a midseason signing for anybody. He is not in form.

My guess is we use the buyout on Fede in the summer window. He has three years left, correct? So it'll be 17M at that point remaining.

Tell him now you'll buy him out for 12M. That gives him an incentive, if he shows something in a few games here and re-establishes his value, he can do better than his current deal. If not, not.

Also. No way he winds up in Italy unless he really shows something. I bet he winds up in Turkey.

[rydermike]

Joey Maher (2nd round pick) enters the NCAA Transfer portal. Guess that means he's leaving training camp and going back to NCAA rather than potentially joining TFC2

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/goodmansport/status/1751083956399689939

[OgtheDim]

The buyout has to be for the whole of the remaining contract & can not be negotiated down.

They will use it before day 1 to clear cap space and/or a roster slot - I don't think they'll use it on a DP. My guess is Diomande or Akinola.

[ensco]

]The buyout has to be for the whole of the remaining contract & can not be negotiated down.[/B]

They will use it before day 1 to clear cap space and/or a roster slot - I don't think they'll use it on a DP. My guess is Diomande or Akinola.

I posted this myself a few weeks back. Then I go ahead and forget…!

[jloome]

I posted this myself a few weeks back. Then I go ahead and forget…!

As the league allows personal services contracts, Ala the second half of Insigne's deal and the Messi/Beckham deals, it would seem easy to get around this. Just hire him on a separate $12M consulting deal, then agree a mutual termination of contract, rather than a buyout.

[JoesphNdo]

What benefit is buying him out, though? We have a possibility to use a dp slot already. So we gain his cap hit and second dp slot for 17m? The cap hit is nice, but I don't see it for that.

The second DP slot be useful if MLSE is willing to invest 17m to have a player go away, AND spend on two more DPs (since they can spend on a first now anyway without much issue). I don't see it, but would love to be wrong

I just don't see what it gets us. What's the pitch to the board on this?

[ag futbol]

As the league allows personal services contracts, Ala the second half of Insigne's deal and the Messi/Beckham deals, it would seem easy to get around this. Just hire him on a separate $12M consulting deal, then agree a mutual termination of contract, rather than a buyout.

My bet is, the buyout amount here is career ending for several people inside MLSE. The longer we wait this out, the less that number becomes and they try to stuff it under the carpet how entirely dysfunctional and poorly thought out this whole idea was.

This year is not about the fans or anything else worthwhile. It's simply a loss mitigation exercise while we wait for tomorrow. I will be spending exactly $0 on this team in 2024.

[jloome]

My bet is, the buyout amount here is career ending for several people inside MLSE. The longer we wait this out, the less that number becomes and they try to stuff it under the carpet how entirely dysfunctional and poorly thought out this whole idea was.

This year is not about the fans or anything else worthwhile. It's simply a loss mitigation exercise while we wait for tomorrow. I will be spending exactly $0 on this team in 2024.

Fairly likely.

I mention it's possible, not that I think it's going to happen.

More likely if they use it, it will be Diomande. He's too inconsistent health-wise and hasn't scored regularly in years, plus takes up an International Slot.

One of the defenders -- Petretta would be my guess -- might be possible as well. Same reasons, badly overpaid and taking up an Int'l slot.

[ag futbol]

Fairly likely.

I mention it's possible, not that I think it's going to happen.

More likely if they use it, it will be Diomande. He's too inconsistent health-wise and hasn't scored regularly in years, plus takes up an International Slot.

One of the defenders -- Petretta would be my guess -- might be possible as well. Same reasons, badly overpaid and taking up an Int'l slot.

Makes sense. Freeing up the international slot is an added benefit, for sure. Although, haven’t prices for these bottomed out in recent years? Assuming Dio only has one year left anyway. They might just let that one ride.

Plenty of black holes throughout this roster. I’m still shocked we haven’t signed a CB. If that isn’t an ominous sign, I don’t know what is.

[Bushmancan]

Makes sense. Freeing up the international slot is an added benefit, for sure. Although, haven’t prices for these bottomed out in recent years? Assuming Dio only has one year left anyway. They might just let that one ride.

Plenty of black holes throughout this roster. I’m still shocked we haven’t signed a CB. If that isn’t an ominous sign, I don’t know what is.

I agree on the CB, we need someone to shepherd the line. I liked Hedges, except he got injured, slower and then was allowed to leave the madhouse back to Texas. I know people won’t agree but Rosted other than one truly bonehead mishap, (he was solid with Hedges in the first 8 games), good attitude and looks like he wants to be here. Don’t forget the back four weren’t that bad at the beginning of the season. We need the Hedges backfill.

[jloome]

Our priorities right now, as far as I can see, are wide speed, a central defensive leader and a second number six to backup Flores and challenge for a first-team role.

Herdman seems massively more structured and organized than his predecessors. I imagine we might see the yutes actually being tailored to full-time positions properly now.

So maybe we'll see some improvement from Thompson, JMR et al

[OgtheDim]

The longer this goes on....the more I just am going to look forward to going to a game, watching them play in the pink & blue, having a beer and seeing some relatively decent football locally.

I will reserve my ire for away games.

Seriously, BB effed us up for this year based on "we wanna play this way". Manning let it happen and ain't going anywhere until we miss the playoffs again. Roster fixes from outside are difficult. I am going to go back to 2009-2014 - watch a player progress, maybe see a decent play and see if Herdman can manage in this league under less then ideal circumstances.

[OgtheDim]

Oh, and bring on the points guess thread... the median on the guesses is going to be in the mid 30's I suspect.

[Phil744]

Our priorities right now, as far as I can see, are wide speed, a central defensive leader and a second number six to backup Flores and challenge for a first-team role.

Herdman seems massively more structured and organized than his predecessors. I imagine we might see the yutes actually being tailored to full-time positions properly now.

So maybe we'll see some improvement from Thompson, JMR et al

I still can't believe all the incorrect moves BB did with players under 24. Every one was the wrong player to sell and now we r paying for it in our depth/starters.

[Initial B]

Oh, and bring on the points guess thread... the median on the guesses is going to be in the mid 30's I suspect.

I never do that until the week before the season starts. There's still time to make moves.

[OgtheDim]

I never do that until the week before the season starts. There's still time to make moves.

Oooo...good to know....I await the opportunity to think I am being optimistic about us ditching Diomande and say 37 points.

[Mr. Inbetween]

Interesting thread…

Will need to use the ‘Translate Post’ function after selecting each player.

Check out this tweet at [URL]https://twitter.com/NeilimeB/status/1751198198742356061[/URL]

[jloome]

Interesting thread…

Will need to use the ‘Translate Post’ function after selecting each player.

Check out this tweet at [URL]https://twitter.com/NeilimeB/status/1751198198742356061[/URL]

What even is this? When I visit the post, it's just a post in French saying "presentation of interesting Toronto FC players" and then a line about the window being open until April 24 or something.

There's no list of players or what this even is? Why are you posting this? It looks like an ad for a game or something.

[Bushmancan]

[QUOTE=jloome;2000701]What even is this? When I visit the post, it's just a post in French saying "presentation of interesting Toronto FC players" and then a line about the window being open until April 24 or something.

There's no list of players or what this even is? Why are you posting this? It looks like an ad for a game or something.[/QUOTE

Sorare is a French fantasy sports company that has tried to make a mark in the collectible NFT business. Mr Inbetween was just extolling what the value and traits of the 2024 Cards are. They have been “relatively” successful in some markets in Europe.

[jloome]

[QUOTE=Bushmancan;2000703]

What even is this? When I visit the post, it's just a post in French saying "presentation of interesting Toronto FC players" and then a line about the window being open until April 24 or something.

There's no list of players or what this even is? Why are you posting this? It looks like an ad for a game or something.[/QUOTE

Sorare is a French fantasy sports company that has tried to make a mark in the collectible NFT business. Mr Inbetween was just extolling what the value and traits of the 2024 Cards are. They have been “relatively” successful in some markets in Europe.

Ah. I mean... not sure what that's got to do with our offseason roster. Maybe the wrong thread for it.

I'm not trying to be bitchy about it, it's just difficult enough finding any morsel of interesting TFC info right now that muddying the waters ain't exactly helping.

[jloome]

I still can't believe all the incorrect moves BB did with players under 24. Every one was the wrong player to sell and now we r paying for it in our depth/starters.

I think Bob and his son are genuinely good, hard-working people. I also think that success has, as it does with all of us, clouded their perceptions of their own limitations.

The "shoe treatment" style of management is dead, and yet he insists on it, and Michael is just as unforgiving as a player. But sports and people change, and there has to be a softer touch these days generally.

Plus, there's just no need for it; it's like beating a dog. Yeah, it works sometimes, but the results aren't permanent and you lose the dog's respect to fear.

But his player judgment was simply horrendous. I imagine that's why LAFC never gave him the role.

That we lost Shaffelburg, a fine forward prospect, and Macnaughton, at least a decent backup (and it turns out pretty much starter quality with good coaching) to Nashville for CJ Sapong? Outrages me, frankly, still.

MacNaughton's obvious read of the game and athleticism was more than enough to warrant keeping him, even if a brain-fart-per-game was hurting his starter chances.

And Shaffelburg was our quickest forward and has displayed a natural eye for goal.

I just don't know how arrogant a coach has to be not to recognize their differential talent level, or to perhaps not believe there's really that much different in potential between players.

That was unforgivable.

Frankly, Jesus Jimenez was (and probably still could be) a very effective striker at this level when he was happy. As soon as we got rid of Salcedo and Pozuelo, he went to pot. (He also got ZERO service from the Italians, versus good service from Poz. He was a very good finisher, clearly, by his finishing rate. But he went from three or four good chances a game, guaranteeing us at least one, to zero-to-two, guaranteeing he'd have a much harder time.)

Dallas wasted him by using him as a winger, although to their credit, they did rehab him from two bone breaks as well, and he was till getting the odd look late in the season.

Just so many bad fucking decisions. Absolutely stupefying, that he'd made it that far in his career as a coach with personal skills and player potential recognition that was so poor.