TFC 2023-2024 player off-season roster discussion

[bought with blo]

Give our refusal to sign a 3rd DP, I don't think the DP slot matters. Any deal that sees us financially on the hook for all or most of his wages makes no sense on our end, so I just don't buy any loan that doesn't involve us transferring his wages. So I;m very very skeptical about this line of thinking, as I just don't see what we gain (Maybe some cap space I guess to spend on the cap hit his DP slot takes? Is that enough?)

His biggest burden to us is financial, not regulatory, from my perspective

There was a refusal to sign a third DP under BB. There might already have been a mandate to perform with what you have for now. If you are successful with what you have, we will give you more. If you fail with what you have we will not give you carte blanche to sign a new DP.

The reticence might not have been signing a third DP, it might have been having BB sign one. Once the season was in the tank it makes little sense to make a big name signing until you see what you have with the new coach and what he wanted

If Hernandez can get rid of Berna it will be something of a coup. Unless someone has some insider info saying the purse strings are closed, I won't believe it. MLSE has money to burn. As has been noted before the team salary is a rounding error for them.

The board may be asking certain things of Hernandez, him having to prove competence before being given blank cheques. I am willing to wait and see how this window proceeds. The primary transfer window is open so long. We have got a lot of time yet.

Never forget, they have made around a 7400% increase in the value of the team since purchase. I really don't think eating 10-15 million in salary is a problem.

[JoesphNdo]

There was a refusal to sign a third DP under BB. There might already have been a mandate to perform with what you have for now. If you are successful with what you have, we will give you more. If you fail with what you have we will not give you carte blanche to sign a new DP.

The reticence might not have been signing a third DP, it might have been having BB sign one. Once the season was in the tank it makes little sense to make a big name signing until you see what you have with the new coach and what he wanted

If Hernandez can get rid of Berna it will be something of a coup. Unless someone has some insider info saying the purse strings are closed, I won't believe it. MLSE has money to burn. As has been noted before the team salary is a rounding error for them.

The board may be asking certain things of Hernandez, him having to prove competence before being given blank cheques. I am willing to wait and see how this window proceeds. The primary transfer window is open so long. We have got a lot of time yet.

Never forget, they have made around a 7400% increase in the value of the team since purchase. I really don't think eating 10-15 million in salary is a problem.

It absolutely matters to them! They didn't get that 7,400% increase by spending on wages, and they'll see it that way, too. They don't care how much it increased by, they care about whether the teams roster spending is a positive ROI or not, and it's pretty inescapable to reach the conclusion it's not

Put another way, we could free upa DP slot right now, today, but it's very clear from the messaging that we are NOT in the market for a DP. So opening a further slot, while not removing the financial burden of the contract, doesn't seem to present us with any other options we don't currently have. From where I'm sitting, it's clear willingness to spend is preventing us buying another DP, not the lack of a DP slot. Further evidence of that, to me, is they just didn't use their buy out last year - why? We have endless candidates for it. It's likely* because they don't want to keep throwing money down a toilet on this team.

I could see us buying another one if we rid ourselves of one or, ideally, both of our boat anchor contracts, but a move that moves either DP away without that doesn't gain us a single thing other than the very small consolidation of we get back the cap room their DP contract takes.

Basically, we already have a DP slot in theory and we aren't using it, so what good is a second one? I just don't see what we have to gain with any option that doesn't involve the financial burden being relieved

*There is the small possibility I wouldn't dismiss that we used it on Bradley and to save face on both sides haven't announced this. I will grant that is another possible reading of it, but there's no evidence to support it as of yet

[Smokecell]

Given his history of wading into online debates and defending his father online (both he and Jeff his uncle have done so) I'm inclined to believe the stuff about the Italians was from Michael.

I know for a fact that at least two of the named sources in the story -- and I'm not going to go further than that -- gave them a lot more than was openly attributed to them.

Hold on a sec - Michael Bradley wading into online debates and defending his father online? That was a thing?

[Red I]

I don’t have Instagram but from what I see from TFC on Twitter, there’s been no pics of Bernadeschi in Florida. Have to imagine that adds smoke to the transfer fire.

He was in that short clip in Toronto but that’s not too surprising as I’m sure he had to wrap up some stuff locally.

Berna was photographed in Palm Beach, he is there now.

https://www.instagram.com/p/C2P_FX1R...VvenIwdTdzYg==

[bought with blo]

It absolutely matters to them! They didn't get that 7,400% increase by spending on wages, and they'll see it that way, too. They don't care how much it increased by, they care about whether the teams roster spending is a positive ROI or not, and it's pretty inescapable to reach the conclusion it's not

Put another way, we could free upa DP slot right now, today, but it's very clear from the messaging that we are NOT in the market for a DP. So opening a further slot, while not removing the financial burden of the contract, doesn't seem to present us with any other options we don't currently have. From where I'm sitting, it's clear willingness to spend is preventing us buying another DP, not the lack of a DP slot. Further evidence of that, to me, is they just didn't use their buy out last year - why? We have endless candidates for it. It's likely* because they don't want to keep throwing money down a toilet on this team.

I could see us buying another one if we rid ourselves of one or, ideally, both of our boat anchor contracts, but a move that moves either DP away without that doesn't gain us a single thing other than the very small consolidation of we get back the cap room their DP contract takes.

Basically, we already have a DP slot in theory and we aren't using it, so what good is a second one? I just don't see what we have to gain with any option that doesn't involve the financial burden being relieved

*There is the small possibility I wouldn't dismiss that we used it on Bradley and to save face on both sides haven't announced this. I will grant that is another possible reading of it, but there's no evidence to support it as of yet

Hernandez has mentioned the possibility of buying down Oso. The only reason to buy down Oso would be to use that DP spot on another player. Makes it sound like it is a possibility. We may not be close to signing a significant player, or things may be close to the vest ATM.

Again we are not privy to the reasons behind decisions.

As to team value. The change from 10 million to 750 million, is completely separate from spending. Whether the team makes 10 million or loses 10 million in a year is, in terms of team value, inconsequential. It is however, consequential to attendance. If they can get a better performing team they will get better attendance. If we loan Berna, and get a third DP, we still have the option of buying out Berna and signing a third. Until the window closes we have no idea how this is going to play out.

Given the MLS black box we have no way of knowing if last year's buyout was used. We have no idea what it may or may not be used on this year. I am a naturally optimistic person. I am looking for the best way this could work out.

I personally don't understand the logic of MLSE stopping spending. It makes so little sense. Winning teams can definitely be bought. They have proven this. Not trusting the current people with unlimited resources until they prove competent is simply prudent. We are building trust. If the team performance improves, I would imagine budget grows with that performance. JMHO.

[Ultra & Proud]

I personally don't understand the logic of MLSE stopping spending. It makes so little sense. Winning teams can definitely be bought. They have proven this. Not trusting the current people with unlimited resources until they prove competent is simply prudent. We are building trust. If the team performance improves, I would imagine budget grows with that performance. JMHO.

This is where I think we're at. They'll spend but the faith in Manning and the current staff identifying talent is very low now and I think they'd like to see some proper management of funds spread throughout the roster and have some players show signs of development rather than just keep writing cheques to cover all the bad moves and buy PR. There has to come a point where enough is enough and either you sink or swim and Manning & Hernandez are there now. Rubio has time still. I think the others are on the clock.

[JoesphNdo]

Hernandez has mentioned the possibility of buying down Oso. The only reason to buy down Oso would be to use that DP spot on another player. Makes it sound like it is a possibility. We may not be close to signing a significant player, or things may be close to the vest ATM.

Again we are not privy to the reasons behind decisions.

As to team value. The change from 10 million to 750 million, is completely separate from spending. Whether the team makes 10 million or loses 10 million in a year is, in terms of team value, inconsequential. It is however, consequential to attendance. If they can get a better performing team they will get better attendance. If we loan Berna, and get a third DP, we still have the option of buying out Berna and signing a third. Until the window closes we have no idea how this is going to play out.

Given the MLS black box we have no way of knowing if last year's buyout was used. We have no idea what it may or may not be used on this year. I am a naturally optimistic person. I am looking for the best way this could work out.

I personally don't understand the logic of MLSE stopping spending. It makes so little sense. Winning teams can definitely be bought. They have proven this. Not trusting the current people with unlimited resources until they prove competent is simply prudent. We are building trust. If the team performance improves, I would imagine budget grows with that performance. JMHO.

If we buy down oso and get a DP, Awesome, I hadn't heard that

But just to be clear - this is *not* how businesses look at finance. Our growth is completely divorced from our spend. It's almost completely coincidental.

Imagine an investor opens a restaurant in some crap hole town, and they buy the building because it's dirt cheap. Over many years they have had a series of managers, all utterly incompetent except one. They have flushed money down the toilet, outspending every nearby restaurant, while not even coming close to even matching their success

Coincidentally, at the same time, the town discovers oil and a huge influx of people come in. Suddenly, this building is prime real estate, and the owners have made magnitudes more than their investment

That does not mean they look at their manager flushing millions of dollars down the toilet and think 'but look how much money they made'. They absolutely, still, will demand this manager shows them a positive return on that spending. If they prove incapable of doing so, they either move on, or cut the spending. They don't just not sweat the money they're throwing away. The best, most successful, restaurants in town are spending a fraction of what we are.

In other words, operating the restaurant has lost them money. It's just by coincidence a part of their investment has ballooned in value. But that doesn't mean operating the restaurant won't be seen as something that has lost them money. We are that restaurant. Operations wise, we've lost money, even if the investment overall is in the plus, because they could have run us like Chicago and gotten 99.99% of the return

So all that is to say I just don't believe they'll have a YOLO attitude to our spending as they buy another yacht, because the spending didn't get them their return. And I truly do not believe we have anything close to the capital to say "Yeah, see those tens of millions we spent on the DPs I promised would change the world that flopped while we finished dead last? We want you to put that money in a shredder. Also, can we have another eight figure injection? I promise this time it'll totally work". I just can't see that pitch landing. If it does, man, I have to find a way to get a job at MLSE because there's no way I'd authorize another cent to goto Bill Manning at this point and I'd love to work in a place that cares that little about results

Anyway, we'll see. I just don't see what opening a DP slot without losing the financial obligation nets us, but maybe MLSE are in it for another money black hole and have two big DPs in the budget on top of what we're already spending. I'd love to be wrong. I didn't think they'd spend what they did on Insigne, so I may well be wrong. I just don't see it.

[Ultra & Proud]

For me I would rather just keep Osorio as DP and just throw that tag on someone else if Bernadeschi leaves for further accounting purposes. I have zero faith that our management could pick a proper DP so I would rather them just figure it out with what they have or by filling the roster with good lower cost players. We're going to be shit either way so I would rather skip the press conferences/slogans/new merch launches for whatever fancy new guy is supposedly going to fix us and just get on with it.

[jloome]

Hold on a sec - Michael Bradley wading into online debates and defending his father online? That was a thing?

Yeah, when he was fired from the US National team. He got in to a prolong spat with both fans and his former teammate Jimmy Conrad. His uncle Jeff piped up on some dispute about his brother online, too, though I forget the details now.

Michael also tried to organize a player coup against Jurgen Klinsmann, made public by Clint Dempsey, who said he refused to go along with it. He was an arch competitor but I get the sense he liked a strong sense of control and the family sticks closely together. In retrospect, having them in the same dressing room was sort of insane.

[ensco]

Given his history of wading into online debates and defending his father online (both he and Jeff his uncle have done so) I'm inclined to believe the stuff about the Italians was from Michael.

I know for a fact that at least two of the named sources in the story -- and I'm not going to go further than that -- gave them a lot more than was openly attributed to them.

I just went back and reread that Athletic article. My favourite forgotten bit was Fede asking the team to match Insigne's salary at the end of 2022.

That was just a wild level of dysfunction described in that story. Historic.

[jloome]

I just went back and reread that Athletic article. My favourite forgotten bit was Fede asking the team to match Insigne's salary at the end of 2022.

That was just a wild level of dysfunction described in that story. Historic.

Absolutely fractured power dynamic. Overpaid players with egos, a father son manager/captain who are equally self-confident and utterly inflexible, a front office not really paying attention.

That Jimenez interview was telling. It just fell apart more each week as each party tried to dig in and ignore the other. The players were trying to get Bob to bend to their will tactically, and he was trying to imprint absolute authority.

Bob was the kind of manager who tells you you can't vape in the dressing room and gives you one strike before a fine.

I suspect Herdman is the type who would start by asking why you vape there, before discussing whether or not it's a good idea.

They're two senior players; even if they weren't egotistical and with previous success, they would probably take umbrage to "my way or the highway" hard-ass, Bruce Arena school of coaching. Heath Pierce and other former Bob players have talked about the fact that he could be so stern and demanding he'd just burn guys out.

So imagine you're an Italian Nat coming of a European championship. Suddenly, a guy whose biggest job on his CV was getting fired at Swansea after 19 games is barking in your face.

He wanted MMA fighters, they're karate masters. He wanted high-energy pressure, chaos in the box to score from the most dangerous spots. They're coming from synchronized offences that patiently wait until a defender makes a small mistake.

It was just a recipe for disaster. Then, into that blender, throw their teammate and captain being his son, and the complete absence of trust that would engender.

Yikes.

[OgtheDim]

.. father son manager/captain who are equally self-confident and utterly inflexible

....

I kinda wondered if the "lets do this for Michael" thing Herdman talked about in the last week of 2023 was doomed due to this reason.


That and I saw some WTR types take umbrage this week at Herdman mentioning MB being coached by his Dad was a problem - words to the effect of "He was our captain" - that sort of thinking might have driven a lot of the "Berna is a joke & Insigne spoiled" coverage.

He was great. Probably the best MLS midfield game ever played in the final of 2017. His captaincy during the Trump years & BLM was a measured "that's not us" that resonated within this city. He was out there talking in good times & bad.

&

By 2022, he was the wrong guy for this team to have as its captain.

Some of the blogger media around this team are 2 steps removed from USMNT apologia.

[Valdal]

Jloome any news on whom or when the 2 signings will happen?I need some Toronto FC rumors... trades, anything at this point...

[jloome]

Jloome any news on whom or when the 2 signings will happen?I need some Toronto FC rumors... trades, anything at this point...

I understand both are basically in the final stages, but that that's also where things often breakdown. We may be shopping for an international slot for the defender, too.

[bought with blo]

If we buy down oso and get a DP, Awesome, I hadn't heard that

But just to be clear - this is *not* how businesses look at finance. Our growth is completely divorced from our spend. It's almost completely coincidental.

Imagine an investor opens a restaurant in some crap hole town, and they buy the building because it's dirt cheap. Over many years they have had a series of managers, all utterly incompetent except one. They have flushed money down the toilet, outspending every nearby restaurant, while not even coming close to even matching their success

Coincidentally, at the same time, the town discovers oil and a huge influx of people come in. Suddenly, this building is prime real estate, and the owners have made magnitudes more than their investment

That does not mean they look at their manager flushing millions of dollars down the toilet and think 'but look how much money they made'. They absolutely, still, will demand this manager shows them a positive return on that spending. If they prove incapable of doing so, they either move on, or cut the spending. They don't just not sweat the money they're throwing away. The best, most successful, restaurants in town are spending a fraction of what we are.

In other words, operating the restaurant has lost them money. It's just by coincidence a part of their investment has ballooned in value. But that doesn't mean operating the restaurant won't be seen as something that has lost them money. We are that restaurant. Operations wise, we've lost money, even if the investment overall is in the plus, because they could have run us like Chicago and gotten 99.99% of the return

So all that is to say I just don't believe they'll have a YOLO attitude to our spending as they buy another yacht, because the spending didn't get them their return. And I truly do not believe we have anything close to the capital to say "Yeah, see those tens of millions we spent on the DPs I promised would change the world that flopped while we finished dead last? We want you to put that money in a shredder. Also, can we have another eight figure injection? I promise this time it'll totally work". I just can't see that pitch landing. If it does, man, I have to find a way to get a job at MLSE because there's no way I'd authorize another cent to goto Bill Manning at this point and I'd love to work in a place that cares that little about results

Anyway, we'll see. I just don't see what opening a DP slot without losing the financial obligation nets us, but maybe MLSE are in it for another money black hole and have two big DPs in the budget on top of what we're already spending. I'd love to be wrong. I didn't think they'd spend what they did on Insigne, so I may well be wrong. I just don't see it.

And yet a sports franchise is not a restaurant. They are not typically considered money making endeavour's. They are more like a house than any kind of actual service business. All of the operational costs are more like maintenance than anything else. Profit is likely only to be realized at the sale of the property. It is part of the pyramid scheme/real estate scam story of MLS franchise value. Most sports teams are not the Leafs. Most of the losses are expected as the cost of doing business. if sports teams were run with year over year operating profit as the goal, 90% of franchises would be bankrupt. Constant investment funds sports. See things like Wrexham, where the fans were paying both for tickets and donating money to pay wages for the team and staff, as the team was never profitable on it own.

[Mr. Inbetween]

Yeah, when he was fired from the US National team. He got in to a prolong spat with both fans and his former teammate Jimmy Conrad. His uncle Jeff piped up on some dispute about his brother online, too, though I forget the details now. Michael also tried to organize a player coup against Jurgen Klinsmann, made public by Clint Dempsey, who said he refused to go along with it. He was an arch competitor but I get the sense he liked a strong sense of control and the family sticks closely together. In retrospect, having them in the same dressing room was sort of insane.

Hmmm, Michael and Lorenzo do play in the same sandbox.

[ag futbol]

And yet a sports franchise is not a restaurant. They are not typically considered money making endeavour's. They are more like a house than any kind of actual service business. All of the operational costs are more like maintenance than anything else. Profit is likely only to be realized at the sale of the property. It is part of the pyramid scheme/real estate scam story of MLS franchise value. Most sports teams are not the Leafs. Most of the losses are expected as the cost of doing business. if sports teams were run with year over year operating profit as the goal, 90% of franchises would be bankrupt. Constant investment funds sports. See things like Wrexham, where the fans were paying both for tickets and donating money to pay wages for the team and staff, as the team was never profitable on it own.

Well, I would say what you’re describing certainly fits the ethos of many owners these days. But it’s also fair to say not everyone views it as such and not ever team operates with losses perpetually.

I go back and forth as to whether our group is okay with the losses in the name of ratings, cornering the largest market in Canada, increasing the sale value, etc… or if they eventually take a stricter view, like Teachers did

[Mr. Inbetween]

ERogers and The Game of MLSE…

Finance is a gun. Politics is knowing when to pull the trigger.

[Valdal]

I understand both are basically in the final stages, but that that's also where things often breakdown. We may be shopping for an international slot for the defender, too.

Cheers, thank you brother.. Id imagine we'd had to move one or several of our players and are in the process of speaking with clubs and players. Hopefully the Berna saga ends with him leaving or being sold for basically nothing. Id imagine hed take a 30% pay cut to go back to Italy, anything more would be hampered as he's 29 years old. This is the most money he'd make in his life here for the next 3 year. I am sure of some team offered him $3.0 million Net, he would be gone by now

[Valdal]

Well, I would say what you’re describing certainly fits the ethos of many owners these days. But it’s also fair to say not everyone views it as such and not ever team operates with losses perpetually.

I go back and forth as to whether our group is okay with the losses in the name of ratings, cornering the largest market in Canada, increasing the sale value, etc… or if they eventually take a stricter view, like Teachers did

My theory or observation is what MLSE takes Toronto FC as a net neutral every year. They make a decent amount of season tickets. The stadium is 75% full every home game. They can charge Maple Leaf's/Raptors prices for Beer and Food and Jersey and clothing sales are rampid every single time I am at the games... They either break even with the little salary cap spending or a running a negative to better balance there tax books

[Valdal]

The real question we should be asking is do see MLSE owning Toronto FC for the long term?

[bought with blo]

The real question we should be asking is do see MLSE owning Toronto FC for the long term?

I can see the valuation hitting over 1 billion by the time the WC is here. That sees us through the Insigne contract. I can see the investment continuing with that understanding. They want to be able to justify the 46k seating as well. A winning team will help with that. Buying out Berna could help with all of that. Strengthening the team is a financial investment at this point.

After the WC is a question that may be up. They could have a billion dollar asset at that point and a 1000% return on investment.

[Bushmancan]

After the WC is a question that may be up. They could have a billion dollar asset at that point and a 1000% return on investment.

Yes completely agree, they (MLSE) logically wont be leaving before then. Too many Telco & Media executives want seats for the World Cup. Nothing like self reward (let’s see how the FIFA dishes seats out though)

It is very disappointing to see the mess Manning has made of things here but you could say the Leafs can they be a serious Stanley Cup threat and Raptors, although now in rebuild are of bigger concern to MLSE management. The Argos although loved are not even a rounding error.

I think we will have moves but I think Herdman is smart enough to know that he has to see if things can congeal first before doing anything more than the Berna ditch.

[jloome]

I notice Vancouver posted pre-season match highlights for fans of their win over a Hungarian 1st div team in Spain.

Hopefully TFC follows suit.

[Luanda]

That we have no jornos in Florida is indicative of the low ebb reached by TFC.
But are there not any "rollerblades" down there that could provide those starving in the the land of "The True North strong and free" for some tidbits?

[Mr. Inbetween]

There will be some sort of/an MLSE ownership/shareholder structure change in 2026 and before the World Cup. Given LTanenbaum’s partial equity sale of Kilmer Sports to OMERS last year, MLSE’s projected valuation, barring unforeseen circumstances, will be between 8-10 Billion.

[OgtheDim]

I don't think a journo has been down with the team in preseason in almost 10 years.

Heck, most baseball teams are not covered from spring training anymore.

[MikeForbes]

My expert training camp scouting tells me that Joey Maher has an incredible wing span. Will be atleast elite at pulling down attackers who get like 8 feet of separation.

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/TouchlineTFC/status/1749212143327572356?s=20

[Red CB Toronto]

I don't think a journo has been down with the team in preseason in almost 10 years.

Heck, most baseball teams are not covered from spring training anymore.

You are probably right, man Kurt has been gone from the Sun for almost 6 years now. The sad thing is neither daily in this city has a beat writer anymore. Outside of John who is really covering this team in any real way? Even the blog world has greatly diminished

[leedsandTFC]

There's a lot of bernardeschi to juve smoke on Twitter and he's been featured not much in the preseason content.

Wonder if a deal is progressing.