Yeah, they’ve been shit. But I still think doing an end route and finding a guy who puts balls in the net in the most likely position to contribute is the right move.Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud
I would rather have one good striker and a bit of concerns around depth behind him than the monstrosity we have built up top currently.
True but unless we managed to get one that could get the ball, dribble, and create for himself then he'd probably be starved of service from the usual twosome. Best possible move is to mitigate their shit-ness by tossing Bernardeschi up top where he should be at least an average MLS striker and Insigne centrally behind him.
With two additions and 25 rosters spots filled, plus I count three more players in camp, Charlie Sharp, Greg Ranjitsingh and one of the other draft picks. That gives you the 28 John talked about. Not sure if John is set to having a 3rd GK on the first team, that role can be handled by someone signed to TFC II. The Reds had 9 new players on the roster come the season and changed were being made during the pre-season leading up to it, think we could at lease see a little bit of the same.
Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!
We need someone who is a strong enough personality and profile to demand the ball and get it. Either that or the coach has to drill it into the Italians to provide service to their teammates or get familiar with the bench.
Berna should be up top in a front two with Insigne behind them in a free roaming roll. My two cents.
Both of them don't perform on the wing here, Herdmann needs to change it up.
I agree with this. It's probably the only way to make the best of a bad situation. Sad that you have to try to make the best out of a pair of DPs with a price tag of $21M+ a season.
Up top as a second striker or underneath as a trequartista, is just a tactical designation. What is needed are plans that put the Italians in dangerous spots with known shooting and passing options that are parts of practiced patterns. If we just put them up there and ask for magic, it is very obvious they can't make it happen.
I think that if we give them structure and plans with some freedom to improvise off of, I think they will both benefit. Everyone needs to know their jobs. Last year it seemed like no one had any specific job. They were just out there winging it. That is fine for the school yard. It is unacceptable for pros.
If we are stuck with both, we are stuck playing a 4-2-3-1 or 3-4-3 with narrow inverted wingers and width provided by advanced wingbacks. While I prefer the 4-2-3-1 double pivot, it looks like we will go with the 3-4-3. It may look a lot more like the CanMNT 5-4-1 box. Insigne and berna behind the striker in front of Oso and Flores/Coello. Width provided by the wingbacks.
Here's hoping for some solid tactical plans and kill patterns. In the right system I still think the Italians can be a productive part of an attacking engine.
Agree.
Herdman… ‘Gentlemen, it’s back to basics, the layout you’re looking at is of an 18 zone pitch. Let’s discuss when and how best to get the ball to zones 14 and 17’.
Yeah given the circumstances, if you are herdman and trying to find ways to motivate a player and cater to their end wants/desires while also getting something out of it, I don't know how that isn't the selling point. 'Look Berna, we understand you wanted to head back home, and at the same time we'd like to see a little more production out of our player up front because we just can't seem to buy goals or anyone to run into space to finish those tap ins or make plays in front of the net and work the ball with anyone else on the pitch. You're going to look hell of a lot more attractive to your home clubs if you can come in hot here to start the season, play for us up top and/or work off another striker in the middle - and bang in a pile of goals and assists for us. Maybe then we get more traction on a deal that works out for both sides come the summer window - but its a positional change and a small compromise that should help you get more options to help with your ideal next steps, and its going to help us build some momentum and positive morale for the locker room having a top tier italian up top helping drive our offense and us starting the season with some good wins.'
If ur looking to turn negatives into positives... get a player clearly looking to increase his stock and eyes so he can find a landing spot... I dunno how that isn't their plan. Surely sitting in the middle in his fiorentina role and smashing in bunch of tap ins or setting up assists is gonna look better for the agent to make some moves then him just slapping his thigh out wide and yelling into his stomach when a play doesn't go as planned. We have a bigger threat up top who should be hungry to produce if he knows banging in goals means more options in the summer to head home (hopefully), someone who directly works in same direct passing space as insigne, should be more goals and setups and get us at least a few more wins which gets the clubhouse morale back into a positive bump and at least feeling like they can get into a winning mentality. Especially given our Striker pool... lol... its worth the punt
Since that sort of prompts a followup of hypothetically what if he's put into a striker/shadow role and he turns into a reformed peak Ronaldo when he went from out wide to striker/target guy, and starts banging in goals left right n center... then we can't get rid of him then right?. I'd argue to still move him even if that ever actually panned out because he's clearly been ripping situps and getting shredded all off season with the motivation to get back to italy at any cost. I don't think he wants to be here any longer then is necessary.
Last edited by FiveThreeTwo; 01-17-2024 at 11:35 PM.
I think the story might have been a bit different if we’d had a genuinely good striker who the Italians trusted. Another major mistake… but then, that probably wasn’t going to happen after the primary mistake which was to put together Bob as coach and sporting director with the Italians. That’s got to be on Manning.
Anyway, we now have a coach who doesn’t usually play with wingers…although, no doubt, we still need at least one striker who can put the ball in the net.
Yeah, I think this was the main point of contention between the Italians and Bob: the sense of what football should be. This was what Bernie meant when he said “we don’t play football”. A lot of what happened after that was secondary to the main problem.
There is no reason why the two Italians cannot look reasonably good in this league. Not likely that they look 20 million a season good for reasons already detailed in this board (though what the hell does that look like in MLS? Often the biggest contracts go to the names with the most marketing power rather than to the most effective players). I’m hoping that Herdman can put them in a solid structure in which we can enjoy watching them play. It really sucks to see that much talent looking so meagre.
That's my thinking. These two although perhaps they've regressed a bit for whatever reason ... age, motivation etc. ... they're still decent talents. What we've been expecting out of them isn't their forte. Both of these players not only played for their country, they played for the European Champions. While being selected for that team they filled a certain role. That role was more than likely their strongest role in THAT team environment. We AREN'T playing them in their strongest role because we're not asking them to do that. If they DO do that, they get shit on because we're losing and they aren't scoring goals. Either sign a striker that they trust and play to their strengths or ship them out and let Herdman tell Hernandez to sign his own DP's that fit their idea of the two or three strongest needs for a team playing THEIR system.
From The Guardian " Things for Each MLS Team to be Hopeful For This Year"
Toronto FC
Reason to hope: Ambition isn’t the problem
Say what you will about Toronto FC’s current roster (fine, I’ll say it: it’s really bad), but one thing you can’t say about Toronto FC is that they’re afraid of taking risks. The club is consistently among the league’s biggest spenders. Toronto’s genuine ambition to be a top club in MLS should give fans hope for a quick improvement after last year’s Wooden Spoon.
So, if MLSE has decided to cut spending the one thing we have to look forward to isn't even really a thing...
Hopefully we can look forward to Manning finally being fired after wrecking this club for the immediate future.
https://www.theguardian.com/football...s-hopeful-2024
Last edited by woolly; 01-18-2024 at 09:07 AM.
Spending does not equal ambition.
Since the Liewicke period it certainly has.
This is basically why Bob was fired.
There were a couple of the games at the end of his reign where the Italians worked really hard, created a ton of chances and still we didn't score. One of those in particular -- it might have been his last game, or the one before -- the buzz in the front office was "we should be better than this."
I was talking to my contact around then and his take was that Bob's system just wasnt' working, but Bob was steadfastly refusing to change it, at all.
According to a recent interview with Jesus Jimenez, multiple veteran players went to him and said the system didn't fit the roster, and they should collectively work out something that did, but he just had no interest. Pozuelo and Salcedo were then seen as troublemakers and asked if they'd rather play elsewhere.
It was basically "my way or the highway."
If a manager has multiple options, multiple looks, they can be a dictator and probably should be. But if their system is a "total football" style philosophy of taking advantage of any given situation, without any prescribed or planned buildup or attack, that doesn't leave a lot of other options when the players can't execute it.
I suspect one of our biggest issues last year, our lack of midfield speed and grit, will be well served by getting in a full-time anchor. We probably need at least one more, in case, as no one else on our roster (outside perhaps Rosted, who played some DM when younger) fits the bill.
Interesting to hear Amy Walsh et al on the Footy Podcast today talking about how important a positive club culture is. It's telling that Herdman is leaving the tactical system to the next camp.
He seems to be making the calculation that it's not that complicated to teach a system to pro-level players, but as she suggested, if they don't like each other, no system is going to work.
She did argue though that the Italians may not have the character, as individuals, to retain a "leadership" example when things go badly.
And I don't think it's the plus Herdman does that Bernardeschi reportedly wept in their conversations "such was his passion" for making this work.
As a guy who doesn't have great emotional self-control (or much at all. Thanks ADHD, you joyless fuck...) I can tell you that deeply passionate people can create great things when buying in. But when we're out, we (as Walsh put it) will suck the energy out of a room in a second.
Ultimately, so far, this season is exactly what it appears: the front office's last big gamble on their choices. If the Italians don't come good, we're fucked. If Herdman can't mould the remaining $7M worth of players (we have the lowest cost roster by far when you take out the DPs) into a germ, we're fucked.
And in either case, if we don't make the playoffs this year, I suspect Bill Manning will be fired, possibly everyone else in the front office.
I have to say, though, I think Herdman has something. His methodological approach seems exhaustingly complete, from building player character and desire to adjusting tactically to what he's got.
But if they don't perform, it's possible that won't matter. We won't have the cap space -- or trade interest -- to bring in the handful of impact players who could turn it around.
Maybe our best bet, early going, is that Jakheel turns it on. I'd hate to give away or trade a great young player, but if he lived up to 75% of his stated potential, we could probably package him with some other players as make weights, clear a lot of salary off the books and give ourselves the wiggle room to rebuild.
Equally good would be Ayo coming in looking like he was before his knee injury. I don't think he was ever going to be better than a 10-15 a year striker, even at his best. But if he can get on a scoring roll -- or any of these strikers -- we can sell them, clear space, get someone more reliable.
We're almost so tied up that we have to hope we can sell whoever's playing best, as most of them aren't our ideal long-term starters.
Last edited by jloome; 01-18-2024 at 02:22 PM.
Still think a lot gets resolved attitude wise by no MB. Suffering fools was not his style.
Reply to a post from ‘2023-2024 General TFC/MLS Banter’…
For myself depends if any/who is the further CB relief. Given TFC’s state, I will for now value slightly more the defense over the attack. When Hedges was participating the club was at least, for the most part, still competitive/in matches. Otherwise a DPIV of Yeye and Coello essentially keeps Oso off the pitch, only as a sub to them or the sub behind Lollo if he in turn is used by Herdman in any hole role. Or in that position as a starting AMF if Fede and Lollo demand to continue to be used as the/two starting forwards again this season; which obviously has not worked so far. Oso does seem to be the odd man out. Also, IIRC, when Oso was healthy for CMNT selection, he has not always made pitch appearances, maybe about over half the time, as a starter/sub for Herdman; not the always guy?
Last edited by Mr. Inbetween; 01-19-2024 at 04:50 AM.
Torino football journalist Nicola Balice suggesting Bernardeschi agent Beppe Bozzo meeting now/today with Juve for his transfer!
Doesn't make any sense for me for Juve to go for him now. Juve was struggling bad last season and early this one but they have really turned it around. Now almost back to top of SerieA, winning every game.
If he does go there, he's not going to see any minutes.
I suppose it would be a 6 month loan at best if he does go to fill in for injuries.
Why would TFC bother to do that though? I would rather have him playing for us if we are stuck with him on our books and not going to some other club to fill in for injuries just to have him come back here mid season. There is only a downside for TFC in that scenario unless I am missing something.
Them doing well may make it easier for them to do a favour to berna than otherwise. He will be superfluous. If we can get proper loan terms, my guess would be 18 Months with a purchase trigger based on appearances, we have totally freed up the DP spot. We can then go and do as we please with the Italian we actually want.
Having a two free DP spots for Herdman may be able to make a great difference to this team. I'm all for it if it can possibly happen. If not we're are back to trying to Herdman the same group into winners.
I am much more in favour of a 3-5-2 with insigne as a shadow striker than a 3-4-3 with both Italians as trequartistas.
Hopefully this is a rumour with legs and not berna wishcasting.
Last edited by bought with blo; 01-19-2024 at 12:16 PM.
Recent rumors I heard about this were that Jordan Henderson was messing up any postential loan deal but that's now sorted with him going to Ajax. Before that the negotiations between TFC & Juve were taking time because they wanted a 6 month loan and we were pushing for them to take him for 18 months. Not sure about the money involved but for sure we'd be eating a lot. The FO (Manning) most likely figure after 18 months his buyout would look more palatable for the MLSE bean counters.
I think if Fede goes to Juve it happens with some sort of finagling of MLS rules. Is it us using the buyout on him, without paying the full amount of his deal? Is it something else? It is probably in the league's interest to invent a rule to resolve this.
if we don’t get the DP spot free and clear, it ain’t happening.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
Give our refusal to sign a 3rd DP, I don't think the DP slot matters. Any deal that sees us financially on the hook for all or most of his wages makes no sense on our end, so I just don't buy any loan that doesn't involve us transferring his wages. So I;m very very skeptical about this line of thinking, as I just don't see what we gain (Maybe some cap space I guess to spend on the cap hit his DP slot takes? Is that enough?)
His biggest burden to us is financial, not regulatory, from my perspective
Unfortunately, I don't think TFC is getting any favours from MLS after the whole BB thing.
Heck I'm no conspiracy theorist but I'm even inclined to believe that MLS FO had a hand in Bogart running that Athletic piece.
Given his history of wading into online debates and defending his father online (both he and Jeff his uncle have done so) I'm inclined to believe the stuff about the Italians was from Michael.
I know for a fact that at least two of the named sources in the story -- and I'm not going to go further than that -- gave them a lot more than was openly attributed to them.
I don’t have Instagram but from what I see from TFC on Twitter, there’s been no pics of Bernadeschi in Florida. Have to imagine that adds smoke to the transfer fire.
He was in that short clip in Toronto but that’s not too surprising as I’m sure he had to wrap up some stuff locally.
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