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    Default TFC 2023-2024 player off-season roster discussion

    For discussion of trades, rumours, and roster construction.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 10-21-2023 at 05:58 PM.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    John Herdman's first move was sending back Ibarra, it will be interesting to see what moves he makes next.

    https://twitter.com/johnmolinaro/sta...10225561854284
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    My new favorite thread.

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    To do list:
    Everyone out

    People who can stay:
    Coello and Kerr (ideally as subs not starters)
    Gavran
    Last edited by rydermike; 10-21-2023 at 07:10 PM.

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    The number one need if Herdman insists on playing a 3 at the back system are at the minimum of 2 CBs. And no, Vitoria isn't one of them.

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    Get the Italians out

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    What exactly to do with the Italians is the defining question, no doubt. And how long have we been crying out for a striker? I mean a real, fully formed and good one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rydermike View Post
    To do list:
    Everyone out

    People who can stay:
    Coello and Kerr (ideally as subs not starters)
    Gavran
    We know Osorio is staying. But my list to start off next season would be similar:

    Gavran
    Coello
    Kerr
    Prince
    Cash

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    Just going to throw this here. Insigne and Berna I guess couldn't even be bothered to join Michael for his final photo...

    https://twitter.com/djcuse/status/1715934098966118723

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    My Stay, Need, Out lists by position

    (Fantasy lists - not everybody we wish could be dropped would be taken up)

    GK


    Stay
    Gavran - potential
    Johnson - can still play - good teacher and a quiet leader at the back

    Need
    #3 Canadian young with potential

    Out
    RanjitSingh - not good enough for MLS - can't handle the speed
    Romero - not as good as Johnson or Gavran


    Defenders

    Stay
    Guitterez - useful as a WB
    Petretta - useful as an LCB
    Franklin - needs to be platooned at RB - not a nailed on starter
    O'Neil - #3 back up CB

    Need
    Solid fast CB
    Sold experienced CB
    Starting RB
    LB platoon option

    Out

    Rosted - can't handle the uncertainty of MLS positioning
    Mabika - attitude & technique both not there



    Mids

    Stay
    Osorio - grit, positionally more aware then many, bleeds for the badge
    Coello - platoon not starter - good passer who finds space - defensively weak both in tackling and in positioning
    Blessing - speed on wing behind forwards option - not a starter
    Insigne - as an Am in a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-2 diamond - fantasy list but this might work - not sure he would be comfortable in the midst so much but he's a luxury out on the left on his own now


    Need
    Experienced or young DP DM
    Experienced or young DP box to box
    Wingers for a 2 person attack


    Out
    Antonoglu - not MLS level
    Thompson - isn't going to get there to this level
    Servania - can't handle adversity & for age, should be better
    Vasquez - assuming he is retiring
    JMR - trade him or loan him - not good enough


    Forwards


    Keep
    Owusu - strong with quality hold up play and can leap and compete in the air
    Mailula - potential - BUT - we really really don't know about this one and as much as people like to say he's great - we don't know
    Kerr - platoon


    Need
    Experienced DP forward / playmaker
    Old MLS vet to platoon in (yeh, I'm calling it - Kei Kamara for 1 final year)
    Speedy attacker backup to change things around


    Out
    Insigne - either moves to AM or out - unlikely to happen but as forward, he doesn't produce enough anymore
    Bernadeschi - doesn't fit MLS - the one time his tricks work every 7 games isn't good enough
    Peruzza - Saw a Black Flag sticker on a Cadillac
    Mbongue - not going to get to MLS level
    Sapong - notice he was out of the lineup last night so assuming he's gone no matter what
    Akinola - 2020 is not going to happen again
    Last edited by OgtheDim; 10-22-2023 at 02:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SenorDingDong View Post
    Just going to throw this here. Insigne and Berna I guess couldn't even be bothered to join Michael for his final photo...

    https://twitter.com/djcuse/status/1715934098966118723


    FWIW

    There's about 7 players on the roster not on loan missing from that pic including Sapong & Servania & Vasquez at first glance.

    &

    Insigne & Bernadeschi have gone down the tunnel early from day 1 here - I noticed it in there first home games - they had to be told to come to the south.

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    Oh, and before somebody suggests it

    Pass on Josef Martinez - never came back from the ACL

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    My Stay, Need, Out lists by position

    (Fantasy lists - not everybody we wish could be dropped would be taken up)

    GK


    Stay
    Gavran - potential
    Johnson - can still play - good teacher and a quiet leader at the back

    Need
    #3 Canadian young with potential

    Out
    RanjitSingh - not good enough for MLS - can't handle the speed
    Romero - not as good as Johnson or Gavran


    Defenders

    Stay
    Guitterez - useful as a WB
    Petretta - useful as an LCB
    Franklin - needs to be platooned at RB - not a nailed on starter
    O'Neil - #3 back up CB

    Need
    Solid fast CB
    Sold experienced CB
    Starting RB
    LB platoon option

    Out

    Rosted - can't handle the uncertainty of MLS positioning
    Mabika - attitude & technique both not there



    Mids

    Stay
    Osorio - grit, positionally more aware then many, bleeds for the badge
    Coello - platoon not starter - good passer who finds space - defensively weak both in tackling and in positioning
    Blessing - speed on wing behind forwards option - not a starter
    Insigne - as an Am in a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-2 diamond - fantasy list but this might work - not sure he would be comfortable in the midst so much but he's a luxury out on the left on his own now


    Need
    Experienced or young DP DM
    Experienced or young DP box to box
    Wingers for a 2 person attack


    Out
    Antonoglu - not MLS level
    Thompson - isn't going to get there to this level
    Servania - can't handle adversity & for age, should be better
    Vasquez - assuming he is retiring


    Forwards


    Keep
    Owusu - strong with quality hold up play and can leap and compete in the air
    Mailula - potential - BUT - we really really don't know about this one and as much as people like to say he's great - we don't know
    Kerr - platoon


    Need
    Experienced DP forward / playmaker
    Old MLS vet to platoon in (yeh, I'm calling it - Kei Kamara for 1 final year)
    Speedy attacker backup to change things around


    Out
    Insigne - either moves to AM or out - unlikely to happen but as forward, he doesn't produce enough anymore
    Bernadeschi - doesn't fit MLS - the one time his tricks work every 7 games isn't good enough
    Peruzza - Saw a Black Flag sticker on a Cadillac
    Mbongue - not going to get to MLS level
    Sapong - notice he was out of the lineup last night so assuming he's gone no matter what
    I like the Insigne to AM suggestion. He is not beating guys one on one on the wing.

    Disagree re Petretta. Not good enough. Suspect his contract is a big problem (“big” in normal MLS terms, TFC “big contract problem” is a whole other thing)

    Deeply suspicious that Mailula is already a bust, for reasons we will learn after the fact. The clue is that nobody is saying a word. The guys name never even gets mentioned.

    Johnson should be moved to good team. Out of respect for the guy. This is not what he came for. He still is part of the USMNT, but will never get games playing behind this defence. In fact I believe he played yesterday to show suitors that he doesn’t have a long-term injury problem.

    I bet Herdman brings in Crépeau.
    Last edited by ensco; 10-22-2023 at 08:51 AM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    In regards to SJ, I think they should approach him similar to Hedges. Ask what he wants and if we can get a lot of value back should pull the trigger. He's still a top keeper in this league.

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    Expecting big changes this offseason. As of right now we only have one young DP spot available. Gotta assume Ayo isn't gonna be retained by San Jose. He has continued to greatly struggle there.

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    My big picture thoughts are this:

    Our midfield is horrific. Other than striker, easily the worst part of our team and probably the worst in MLS. I would want one really good signing in the middle of the park, box-to-box or DM. Needs to have the personality of a leader. Preferably a DP. And I would want a second very solid option to play with him.

    In defence, it’s a no brainer we need to replace Hedges. Other than that, we need one other guy who provides experience and stability back there. The rest will have to raise their games accordingly.

    We need more team speed and more ways to get our forwards the ball in good positions. Owusu may or may not work out, I’d have one eye on the striker positions for next summer’s window.

    Both Italians need to go.

    Based on Hernandez’s early returns and general profile, I sort of doubt he’s up to the job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Deeply suspicious that Mailula is already a bust.
    Even if he is good enough, I have to question why we signed him if we're never using him. Maybe he's just out of his depth in terms of size and strength, so has limited viability until later in games.

    There's definitely some issue there, but I'm not sure who's perceiving what, yet. In his two appearances, he's shown more energy in a handful of minutes than most of our team does all game. The SA League's defending can be USL level, but it also produces good players all over the pitch.

    If he's seen as a bust, I'll be suspicious it's another premature judgment, like Shaffelburg, like Russel-Rowe, like Dorsey (two nice goals last night).

    I wonder if it's attitudinal. Before he was even here, his agent was saying in the SA press that he saw it as a stepping stone to Europe, which may be true but was poorly timed.

    Or maybe we're just blindly ignoring intangibles again. Shaffelburg works in part because he's just unbelievably hard-working and tenacious. His speed is excellent, his technique is good. He might be that kind of player, but often "hard working" seems to have been viewed at our club as a sign of technical limitation. And I highly doubt that's the case.

    They also may see him as not really having a spot until the Italians leave. He played wide right forward, mostly, in SA, and occasionally a second striker. But since he's been here, Bernardeschi has played constantly, and at striker, we don't use a two-man front. When someone comes on, it's either going to be the more experienced Owusu -- who fits the target forward mold -- or Kerr, who has five goal this year in limited starts.

    So he's number three at striker, possibly number two at right wing. But at the latter, he never gets a shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I bet Herdman brings in Crépeau.
    Maybe we can scoop him, but why would he want to leave? Again, we'd have to viciously overpay. He's a free agent, so it's possible, but he's won the starting job back there.

    And if want to sign him, LAFC will know he has suitors and will probably offer something fairly quickly. Meanwhile, we still have a good keeper in Sean Johnston under contract. So we have to somehow move him before making a move for Crepeau. Otherwise we risk our hand being forced, because he's not going to want to stay once he knows they're shopping for Crepeau, whether we get him or not.

    So that would be difficult.
    Last edited by jloome; 10-22-2023 at 12:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeForbes View Post
    Expecting big changes this offseason. As of right now we only have one young DP spot available. Gotta assume Ayo isn't gonna be retained by San Jose. He has continued to greatly struggle there.
    He had less than 60 minutes game time in San Jose. Couldn't crack the squad most games, let alone the starting lineup.

    I think we have to accept that he's crocked. He has MLS level potential when he had a third gear and a huge work ethic, but since his injury both seem to be gone.

    As for the DP, we'll have a regular DP slot, too, even if we don't move the Italians. We've moved enough off the books to move Osorio back to TAM status.

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    Basically agree with all the above, good lists

    I will add, unless he goes and gets an estaquaio type this winter, one thing that I felt definitely came from a herdman tactics board and was intentional through the first half last night was Coellos role in the midfield.

    Dunno if it was cause mb4 shifted back to CB but basically the distribution flowed through Coello for most of the game as the team rebuilt its shape going forward in transition, who was basically played the Toni Kroos tempo setter /metronome role around the park- more then any other games hes been in.

    It seemed pretty fundamental to the plan because insigne/berna/mb4/Oso were all laying off short balls to him more then they had before- where they’d previously shrug him and others off and just go for the play themselves. And tbh, in that slot he seemed pretty at home and was building some confidence as the game went on with some trickier direct passes out wide/through channels to beat the lines.

    If no other upgrade to coello to start next season, then hes gonna need that DP dmid or b2b like Og mentioned to offset coellos slower pace and lack of defense - that and to just backfill MB4. I assume Oso will be the other mid nailed to the 11
    Last edited by FiveThreeTwo; 10-22-2023 at 12:30 PM.

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    PLAYERS WE SHOULD SHED

    Petretta (not good enough)

    Mabike (not good enough)

    Rosted (too expensive for his ability, he's a backup in this league)

    Guitierrez (too expensive for his ability, he's USL level)

    Bernardeschi (wrong attitude, not a team player)

    Insigne (poor leadership, underproduces)

    Mbongue (Just no reason to believe he'll develop into a good striker. Did nothing all year.)

    Akinola (He just seems done).

    Diomande (a walking injury).



    EXPENDABLE PLAYERS (We could keep and develop them or shop them for value, though in this league everyone is expendable)

    Franklin (a decent young fullback but lots of holes in his game, we'd need value back)

    Thompson (decent defensive midfielder but they haven't grooved a role for him, we'd need value back)

    Antonoglou (again, what's his best role? Has potential but nothing to indicate long-term fit)


    Singh (CPL level)

    O'Neill (journeyman defender, beaten too easily on the run.)

    Peruzza (I love the guy but he's not getting better, so far).

    Romero (Probably has a decent future. He's young but looks less about him than Gavran).

    Servania (journeyman quality midfielder).


    PLAYERS WE SHOULD KEEP

    Owusu (His tape from Germany last season was pretty good. he should be able to bag 10 on a good team in this league, and he's not expensive.)

    Gavran (Looks the future).

    Blessing (good engine, decent player. More rotational than starter but can play multiple spots)

    Osorio (even playing poorly he has heart, holds the ball up, keeps possession and scores the odd goal).

    Coello (He's a good young player. He's not a starter yet and general lack of speed might prevent it. But he does good things most of the time.)

    Kerr (Getting better, reminds me of Gyassi Zardes).

    Marshall-Rutty (Yeah, I know, but he's only 19, getting bigger and faster, has solid technique. His mindset is not good though. Too petulant this year. )

    Batiz ( he has real potential and you can't teach speed).

    Pearlman (because it's too early to judge)

    Stefanovic (too early to judge.)

    Johnson (He's a good keeper still, makes big reaction saves).


    PLAYERS ON THIS LIST WHO SHOULD DEFINITELY BE STARTING NEXT YEAR
    ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveThreeTwo View Post
    Basically agree with all the above, good lists

    I will add, unless he goes and gets an estaquaio type this winter, one thing that I felt definitely came from a herdman tactics board and was intentional through the first half last night was Coellos role in the midfield.

    Dunno if it was cause mb4 shifted back to CB but basically the distribution flowed through Coello for most of the game as the team rebuilt its shape going forward in transition, who was basically played the Toni Kroos tempo setter /metronome role around the park- more then any other games hes been in.

    It seemed pretty fundamental to the plan because insigne/berna/mb4/Oso were all laying off short balls to him more then they had before- where they’d previously shrug him and others off and just go for the play themselves. And tbh, in that slot he seemed pretty at home and was building some confidence as the game went on with some trickier direct passes out wide/through channels to beat the lines.

    If no other upgrade to coello to start next season, then hes gonna need that DP dmid or b2b like Og mentioned to offset coellos slower pace and lack of defense - that and to just backfill MB4. I assume Oso will be the other mid nailed to the 11
    Yeah, this is a good spot, dude.

    I think one of his first jobs is to break them of the short buildup across zones and to play with directness when opportunities are there. We've been playing up the wings all year, just about ignoring the central midfield, at least in part because Michael was always receiving in the backline, rather than between zones.

    So he drops Coello between the middle and back third, giving us a chance to both switch field more quickly and to generally lead whoever is the most open forward.

    The problem with it was that the other forwards were always off pace. So whenever a player took the ball into the box, the trailers were always ten feet too deep, slowing everything back down and letting their block set in defensively.

    But it was a good try at a new approach. He's probably got a lot of work to do tactically.

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    As long as Manning and the Italians remain I have no hope that this will become a winning team.

    I keep hoping that some wealthy soccer fan somewhere in the world makes MLSE an offer they can't refuse and buys the club, and then changes the name, colours, and logo. The legacy this club has is one of incompetence that is not worth preserving. It's time to start over.

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    Look on the bright side. In addition to Transmrkt, Manning now has chatGPT to ask how to build a team.

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    If we are unable to dump contracts or make trades and must proceed with the players we have, I'd definately change formation. Insigne cannot beat anyone wide, neither can Bernadeschi and neither one can make a cross to our striker. I'd switch to a 4-3-1-2 with Insigne playing the floater role behind the strikers, like Giovinco did and I'd give Berna a try as a striker partner to Prince.
    Gavran
    Guitterez-O'Neil-Mabika-Petretta
    Blessing -Coello -Mailula
    Insigne
    Bernadeschi-Owusu

    Out- Sapong,Mbongue, Peruzza, Thompson, Diomande

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    Quote Originally Posted by NK Toronto View Post
    .../

    I keep hoping that some wealthy soccer fan somewhere in the world makes MLSE an offer they can't refuse and buys the club, and then changes the name, colours, and logo.....
    Take a hike with this attitude.

    Seriously, ..go away with this.

    We are Toronto FC

    We are the Reds.


    You want something different, go support York.

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    Did we use our contract buyout for the year and if not should we use it and on whom, or should we avoid using it

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    Quote Originally Posted by gracos View Post
    Did we use our contract buyout for the year and if not should we use it and on whom, or should we avoid using it
    definitely diomande.

    players i suspect (or know) will not be here next year:

    bradley
    vazquez
    diomande
    sapong
    mabika
    ibarra (already left)
    insigne and bernardeschi (i know money makes it tough, but when both sides want an outcome, feel like it happens)
    sean johnson
    akinola
    perruzza

    insigne and berna the ones im least sure about due to huge wages.

    just feel like theyve mentally checked out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Take a hike with this attitude.

    Seriously, ..go away with this.

    We are Toronto FC

    We are the Reds.


    You want something different, go support York.
    TFC has worn 3 jerseys this year and not one of them was red. I prefer a winning team.
    Last edited by NK Toronto; 10-22-2023 at 10:17 PM.

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    maybe one of the positives finishing in dead last, is we get top draft pick in upcoming superdraft, End of year waivers, and Re-Entry process, sort of like a restart, as long as Manning stays out of the way, and lets Herdman and his team make the decisions, if Manning doesnt stay out of the way im certain next year wont be much better than how this season ended

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    Not sure why people are worried about Manning getting involved & screwing up our various draft possibilities. He's literally never done that before and it's not what he's done to ruin us. His problem is selecting his pals or USMNT alumni to run everything while he goes AWOL plus he selected 2 (or 3) of the worst DPs in MLS history.

    Keep him away from DPs, minus going to fancy restaurants of course and let him stay in the back working on more MLSE grifts and we should be okay. Maybe. Still don't have a lot of faith in Hernandez.

 

 

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