As Terry said, executed our strategy to a T. I think you all need to drop your season seats.Originally Posted by los sonadores
As Terry said, executed our strategy to a T. I think you all need to drop your season seats.
Yeah I'm the same, I used to watch all of the interviews too. I stopped way back after the first game and Bob wouldn't explain what was wrong with Insigne and basically just said well you saw it, I'm sure you can figure it out. Now Terry with his post game interviews, he is in way over his head and doesn't just want to admit it in the media..hard to break down but they scored 3 or 4 against us...right.
I honestly feel bad for Terry, what're you even supposed to say? He's the care taker, in way over his head, shitting the bed and the team sucks. There's not much of a way to spin that.
At least we were spared the mental gymnastics of having our manager explain that, somehow, the first goal was actually Pozuelos fault
Definitely he’s in over his head. But there’s a time to protect players and a time to say it straight. That he thinks he needs to protect the players at this stage is laughable.
To me, as much as Dunfield isn’t a competent coach, the interviews are useless because he’s not in a position to provide any good info to begin with. Hernandez and Manning should be the ones taking fire right now and standing up in front of the media.
And don’t get me started on the TFC press. I’ve never seen a bunch of more cuddly,, lap dogs reporters in my life.
The narratives offered are so meek and mild it’s a profound embarrassment they show up at all. I can see why they are becoming an endangered species when they struggle so mightily to speak anything that even approaches the truth.
Yeah this is where I'm at
Is he almost certainly an absolutely terrible manager not cut out to manage at this level? Sure
Is praising the team with the record it has absolutely ridiculous? Also yes
But he's the fall guy here. He's not positioned, either by skill or by the tools given, to turn this team around, the problems lie elsewhere. So really what can the guy say? "Another week of a shit team, shit manager and shit GM produced some shit results, this isn't getting better anytime soon. If we get a shot on target next week I'll consider it a success". He's not the guy who can or will solve our issues so he's just a public fall guy for now, I'm not surprised he says some ridiculous things to just get through the day.
The problem with Dunfield and the reason I don't feel sorry for him is he isn't good enough to be there but thinks he is.
Classic Canadian / US soccer enablement together with a lack of self awareness /self diagnosis.
I get the game is full of Type A personalities but the better ones at some point get told they are not good enough at something and LEARN.
Maybe they get flapped around mentally like Oso vs Croatia.
But the good ones learn.
My problem is that he sticks to his "we executed the gameplan to a T" and "The boys did what was asked and the game was ours except for a few mistakes".
And the game; 3-0 or 4-0 loss, microscopic XG, maybe 2 shots on target and 5 or so overall, no cohesiveness, no shape, no plan of attack.
So if I take him at his ridiculous word that it went according to plan then he is indirectly saying he is garbage and has no clue on how to change or fix anything or identify the problems.
I don't think that's the case. His body language doesn't scream confidence, not in the slightest. He looks like a guy who was asked to do a difficult job, has tried, has seen it get objectively worse.
People can ascribe whatever negative shit to the man they want, but he was thrust into that role, he didn't demand it. He had a job, his employer asked him to do another one. He wasn't ready for it, had no experience in it and did not volunteer for it.
Deride his management skill all you want, but I think we all reasons to have a little sympathy for him. He didn't ask for this, and he's tried to keep an optimistic voice on it because that's what he's been asked to do.
None of this is his call, that's on the front office.
No, man, it's not that simple. He's been told to accentuate the positive, all the time. He's just doing what his employers tell him to do. He's a puppet manager right now, asked to keep things as non-hostile in a hostile dressing room as possible.
They want to move some of these players. They don't want their infighting and negativity to be out in the open.
Last edited by jloome; 10-11-2023 at 12:51 PM.
Yeah I don't see any arrogance or anything like that. I see a guy in over his head, who knows it, and who is probably doing all he can to follow his employers orders to just get through the year and be positive when talking to the media and not say anything memorable or controversial
His lack of skill doesn't reflect on him as a person at all. He shouldn't be in this position, but that isn't his fault, and it was an unwinnable situation even for a skilled manager due to much deeper problems than a manager can solve in the short term
Exactly. And the assistant gig to learn under Herdman is a reward for doing this. They took a flyer to see if a complete change of approach, from authoritarian to friendly, could loosen them up and get some fun in the dressing room, some passion for the game over ego.
It clearly did not work.
But it's not on Terry. If anything, the fact that they slacked off as soon as Taskmaster Bob left was disrespectful of a guy trying to help them.
My last contact with anyone in the front office was that they're of the opinion that the DPs are utter failures and that if they can shed them they will. But they're not optimistic as to how.
If they can't, they're literally praying Herdman can whip them into shape with a better starting lineup around them, and convince them that they're able to play this style of football. Their message to management, all season apparently, has been "our teammates are not good enough. We can't play at their level." But, as one of the front office guys said in the same email "they're supposed to raise everyone else's level, not lower it."
This is still, ultimately, all on Bill. It's his mess to clean up, not Terry's.
It's why they went after Herdman. They were leaning towards either a rank outsider or Smyrniotis, because he's done well and they thought have a relatively young Canadian who develops youth well would be something fans might get behind.
But Herdman sat down with Manning and Hernandez and basically sold them, outlining what they considered a comprehensively more professional plan to develop a style that works in MLS, and that allows the younger players to be integrated without compromising strength week to week.
He talked for a long time and blew them both away, basically.
They then went after Sean Rubio when word came that Austin's new GM was going to clean house, because he identified a lot of the talent they signed between 2016 and 2020. His title is Technical Director but he's really the head of scouting and player acquisition.
My only knock on him is they hired Omar in that time, and he was clearly crocked. And Austin's defensive signings have not been anywhere near as strong as their offensive ones -- and we need defensive signings that work. But it's also quite possible Omar was largely Ali's idea, as he loved the idea of having a U.S. Nats veteran, and his track record was pretty solid (albeit only at Galaxy; he was largely shit in Mexico).
Herdman has rebuilt the coaching staff as well.
So Manning's play is basically to get a player acquisition guy who's proven and pair him with a manager that is hungry for professional success, and has shown some flair at the national level. He knows he's done like dinner if they don't make the playoffs next year, and this is his dice roll.
The dude shouldn't have been head coaching at the academy level.
He has had his mistakes go unnoticed or ignored.
Based on that "I'm ready" moment really early in his tenure, yeh he thought he could do the job.
The coach he is is...that's a product of a system that fails because it does not correct.
Gonna stop arguing this as it doesn't really matter anymore.
You guys probably held out much longer than I did! For the first couple years of TFC, I read and watched everything TFC related obsessively, incl. any interview that was available. But ever since one of the previous failed "rebuilds" I just couldn't do it anymore. Now my memory is fading, and there's been too many rounds of TFC disappointment, that I simply can't remember anymore when I gave up. I found that interviews and press conferences would simply give me stomach aches. "Fool me once, fool me twice, fool me thrice" eventually I had to realize I was the idiot. I still often believed and hoped and suffered while watching games (until this year when I found that chatting with my seatmates at BMO Field was far more enjoyable 95% of the time). But the drivel coming out of their mouths: for many years the BS quotient has been way too high for me to bother waiting for the occasional honest and interesting nugget.
Haha sounds like I did hold out longer. I think I watched all the vids until Vanney left. Got real sick of Armas real quick. Perez always seemed like an interim so never bothered listening to him. Bradley I couldn't stand to hear him talk because I thought he carried himself with so much arrogance. At least that is the way it came off to me. I tuned into the first couple Dunfield interviews since I like Terry as he seems like a good dude but man it was obvious he was in over his head and then all the quotes he gave since then kind of show that. Tough to be the sacrificial lamb. Not sure if he took the job because he thought he was ready or if he did it just to make the boss happy and not let it be a career limiting move to say no.
He didn't take the job. They had him under contract and appointed him to it as a temporary measure. I suppose he could've insisted he stay at the academy, limit any chance of future advancement within the company by doing so.
But generally, when someone under contract is told by their boss "now you're going to do this," there's not a lot of debate involved. I mean, I suppose there legally could be, but most people don't want to burn their employment bridges by being difficult or saying no.
Plus, he probably thought he'd do better. Doesn't change that it wasn't a collaboration, it was by direction of his employer.
Yeah I guess he was already employed by TFC so could have been the case for sure. I have been in that boat in my company a few times and I always had the "option" to turn it down. Career limiting move though when your boss needs you. Was curious if he actually thought he was ready or just couldn't say no. I agree with you though I am sure he thought he would do better. Unfortunately he couldn't even maintain even what was happening with BB. Like it has been said in this thread though not all on him since it looks like players have given up too.
Good post jloome, agree with all, but this stands out to me (And this is directed at that sentiment, not at you!)
My God I would give *anything* for them to finally understand how fucking stupid this "throw fan services at the fans! fuck the long term!" thinking is. This, to me, is the defining characteristic of the Bill Manning era (Beyond just general incompetence and awful results) and is one of many reasons we continue to be terrible
Just stop, please, front office, stop. You give a nice fan service appointment/signing/contract extension and you maybe buy some good will for the extreme short term, but long term, do you know what the fans will get behind? A team that wins. This tactic doesn't work. It didn't work with the Jozy extension, it didn't work with flirting with Seba, it didn't work with re-signing Vasquez and the countless other times they've made decisions based on fan sentiment and not on what will produce a winning team. Just stop. The worst part is it doesn't even fill the stadium, the stadium is empty now because the team sucks, if they made ruthless decisions that upset people in the short term but had a decent team right now the stands would be full again
It's *incredible* to me they keep making this mistake over and over and over again. Stop making decisions based on what the fans think and start making decisions based on putting a winning team on the field and you'll do far to get the fans on your side
We need to be absolutely ruthless when it comes to roster construction next year and shed even fan favourites, we cannot still be in the short term sentiment game. Or we'll be bottom place last year again floating rumours of Seba signing, yet again, as our desperation play to make people show up
If he didn't have a new contract for this interim position, MLSE HR wasn't doing their job.
"Other duties as assigned" doesn't cut it in labour law when an employer announces a person took over a new role on an interim basis.
I would be shocked if there wasn't a new contract - I know the law firm involved & they are meticulous in their advice and oversight.
I know you're in HR and so you clearly believe this to be true.
But I can tell you from 25 years in the media that MOST of that industry runs on people have incredibly flexible contract language, and people are routinely tossed from job to job to job, often with no qualification for what they're being moved to.
Most places are not strong union shops or entrenched bureaucracies. Employees do not have any power, or do not perceive themselves as having any power. Flexibility of trade and unreasonable hours are routinely stated as such in their deals.
The same is true in my wife's company, which is a huge NGO, and has unions. If you're not in the union, if you're under a management contract, they can ask people to do just about anything. And sure, there are grounds for saying no. But nobody does, because they quickly find any prospects for promotion or advancement disappearing.
And the last person they talk about any of this stuff to (rightly or wrongly, often wrongly I imagine) is HR. Most employees I've known in my adult life -- and that's a pretty damn wide cross section of society -- is more afraid that talking to HR will hurt their career than it will help.
I'm sorry, but it is in no way as cut and dried as you're making it out to be. Given their internal rep for being a tough place to work, with silo'd bosses and people coming and going constantly, I can EASILY believe this is the case at MLSE.
The very fact that it was interim, to me, makes it more likely they didn't change his terms, not less. Getting a chance to win the main job was the carrot.
If anything, the new job as assistant to Herdman WAS the new contract, and that didn't come until he was nearly three months in.
(Incidentally, in 25 years in media, including 17 at the same company, my official employment terms were never updated from "junior reporter", despite four or five promotions, my pay doubling, going into management, and spending more than half that as a supervisor. That was normal at most papers.)
Last edited by jloome; 10-12-2023 at 12:06 PM.
I hate to say it, but I think this is just Bill Manning's mindset. He sees his job as being at least part showman/promoter, or at the very least he perceives that to be what the board demands.
I think Ensco might be right; I think he is trying to put together a "winning team", but the direction -- the constant desire to inject promotional elements into that process -- is a constant demand from on high. They constantly want him to do what will "sell", but it never occurs to them that just "winning football" is the answer.
I suspect his biggest challenge is learning how to say "no" to them without it offending.
As in, 'we're rebuilding our internal staff complement, and a certain discretion is required, including allowing them to do their jobs to the best of their ability. If you handcuff them with non-football-related demands for promotional opportunities, this will just get worse."
But that's probably a hell of a conversation to have with some of the MLSE board. It is not a warm and happy bunch.
Last edited by jloome; 10-12-2023 at 12:13 PM.
Yeah that's the part that gets me - their job is to sell, and I get that and have no issues with that.
I just wish they realized that what will sell is spending the time to invest in the infrastructure needed to create a winning team, and they've blown years at this stage not doing that
I think a part of it is a fundamental misunderstanding of why Seba was such a draw to the team (in terms of media, people in stands and eyes on TV etc). They seem to think him being Italian is a huge part of it. Don't get me wrong, there's an Italian community here and I'm sure they liked him for that, but that wasn't it. Seba was a highlight reel machine. He was on sports centre every week doing something absurd - people in Europe would text me about goals he scored. Non soccer fans still mention his name if ever TFC comes up and they aren't Italian. Mainly, he made us a winning team. Make him Spanish or even from Nebraska and I don't think his impact on the bottom line is demonstrably lower.
But the lesson they took was "Bring in Italians" and other short term fan service like thinking & not "Bring in talented players who can turn us into winners and get eyes on the team just by being really really good"
Basically, yeah. I'm fine with them thinking about the revenue we'll generate when making signings, I just wish they were good at it
Last edited by JoesphNdo; 10-12-2023 at 12:18 PM.
Oh, 100%.
They think this is a multicultural/ethnic thing. If someone gave them numbers showing the Greek community in TO has increased 212% since 1972, they'd have been demanding Giakoumakis or Fountas during the offseason.
It's a basic disconnection from their own product. They see it in demographic, statistical terms and returns, and utterly miss the fact that he was an exciting individual.
If Manning had offered them Hany Mukhtar, a very similar but not-quite-as-good player to Seba, their answer would undoubtedly have been "Why? The local German community isn't clamoring for him and the Egyptian diaspora isn't spending money on a guy who's not really from there."
That he might score 15 and assist 10 a year wouldn't have even entered the discussion.
Manning would have never recommended Muktar to the board. He is the problem here. Somebody would have recommended Mukhtar to Manning and his answer would have been "Yeah but how does he help sell more memberships?".
He is like that older TV commercial where the record company crew is having a board meeting on declining CD sales and a young person says they should open paid susbcription streaming sites and other modern ideas and the President guy asks "But how does that help us sell CDs?" and laughs it off. That's Manning. Trapped in an outdated mindset that isn't going to change.
Nah, man, that's the easy "we hate this guy answer", but I've had this conversation with him and it's not reality. He might, as you say, not have taken him to the board. But it wouldn't be "how does this guy help me sell", it would be a presumption that "they won't accept that, he doesn't fit their vision for the club."
I don't get the sense he's willing to push that stuff, because he's pretty sure from past experience they'll just reject it for their own narrative.
I know that sounds pretty spineless. I've also been the dude in the chair who knows he's going to get "NO" from the Department of No, which is what boards (and publishers) often are. (My MO was to push it anyway, which after a while makes you the pushy guy who doesn't get along to get along. Those guys don't become club presidents.)
It's why guys like Lieweke, who want to truly carve their own path, don't survive at companies like MLSE. The board would've driven a guy like him around the bend.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I think the dude is a little more nuanced than you think. He did briefly play pro, he does love to win.
He just likes keeping his job more.
Personally, I think part of what he's trying to rebuild internally is a staff strong enough that when he DOES go to the board, he has weight of expertise behind him. The board loves Herdman. If Herdman and Rubio say "we should get THIS guy", I think he'll take that to them even if it's a Mukhtar, not a Seba, because he knows the board takes Herdman's success with the Nats as serious and bankable.
It doesn't mean they'll be any less difficult or he'll fight tooth and nail for his people, however. He's still trying to survive, first and foremost and the remit for that is "please the board" not "win football matches." You'd think those two things would dovetail nicely... and I imagine Lieweke and Bezbatchenko though that, too.
Oh eff, I can tell you I have observed in banks 3-4 of these situations first hand. They often cruelly involve an employee doing the job one level up in addition to their own role. They string the poor bastard along telling them they’ll be promoted, work them to death, and then bring in someone else.
The employee usually knows it’s wrong. The management, depending on their ignorance, may or may not. But the calculus for the aggrieved is: can I win a legal suit and get a cheque big enough not to work again to counteract likely being blackballed. Usually they just hunker down and take the punishment. The vindictive ones leave and giggle at the bigger hole they just left their leadership team.
I don’t know if Manning’s problem is a lack of fortitude with his bosses or a lack of ability to execute (I would venture it’s both). But either way it’s his problem to manage and if he can’t manage it he should walk.
I’ve made the choice in my career before to tell people in higher pay brackets to pound sand rather than sit around and be an agent of their futility. Any professional worth their salt would do the same.
It might not help old TFC mind you, but it would point the finger directly at who is the problem
Last edited by ag futbol; 10-12-2023 at 02:14 PM.
I would say that it is extremely uncommon for employers to draft a new employment offer for a 'promotion'.
Corporations moving people and dropping more work on their lap happens all the time. Very rarely have I seen it where they expect a new contract to be signed.
Last edited by wopchop; 10-12-2023 at 03:30 PM.
Yeh, I understand where you are coming from
&
I know how Goodmans LLP operates and as I said, would be shocked if there wasn't a new contract.
Regardless...this is getting into weeds.
I think it's pretty simple. Tanenbaum signs the DPs, Manning or whoever signs everyone else.
Come up with whatever construct you want around that, that is how it is.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
This is a very interesting discussion, with the narrative being that the real culprit of TFC's failures is the board of directors more so than Manning. If that is in fact true than what hope is there for supporters. Sooner or later Manning will be gone, but how do you get rid of ownership?
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