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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    I figure they will play good for the last match under Herdman and be more like the team that played vs Philly. The brass will spin this as "a sign of good things to come" as will Herdman but in reality it will just show that the team could have done better than 1-20 down the stretch but chose to be a bunch of standing around, lazy, unaccountable, zero pride losers from July to October.

    I will say that if it's like the Philly match and it's like a switch was flipped and we play great then that means all our leaders & veterans need to go by any means necessary and I am including all of them (Bradley, Johnson, O' Neil, Osorio, Insigne, Bernardeschi). They let this happen under their watch and that's not something that needs to happen again plus letting the kids see the vets get the axe might show them how things really are.
    I think we've seen the inevitable crash that happens when players' egos are pumped up continually, beyond their ability or history.

    Since 2018, we have been in a slow crash. Ali and Bill decided, quite clearly, that we were going to become a youth talent farm, and that the way to do that was to hype the shit out of what we had.

    So for five years, we've been promoting kids up who weren't ready. We have not only infused them with overconfidence to the point of arrogance, we have hired other arrogant players to compliment them, as if collective belief would somehow outstrip work ethic, talent and drive.

    In fact, good players don't have self-confidence in the NOW. They have confidence in their ability to always get better and work harder than others. They don't think "I'm 22 and have signed for a first team, and everyone says I'm going places."

    The front office and management have instilled the WRONG ethic throughout our player base.

    When we still won enough games to compete, any problems of poor ethic or technique or training could be put down by each individual to it being someone else's fault. "Yeah we're losing, but I'm busting my ass." This was rarely better exemplified than by the twin images of Omar Gonzalez and MAK both excoriating teammates despite their own terrible performances.

    Then, they brought in guys with REAL talent... but the same poor attitudes.

    So now, the guys who were arrogant enough, and self-delusional enough, to think they had a chance at winning as long as someone ELSE didn't fuck up are left believing that, in fact, they were never good enough. They never had the kind of talent to play at the top level.

    We are a macrocosm of Jonathan Osorio's revelation at the World Cup that, surprise, he wasn't of the ability to play at the top level. It really gutted him, that was obvious.

    Now, the whole team feels inadequate. It's clear. The ones who don't and are still arrogant don't help fix that.

    We've gone from players thinking they could wind up in La Liga in short order to players who think they aren't good enough for MLS. This has been MAGNIFIED by having Insigne and Bernardeschi, actual talent, telling and showing them weekly that they think they're shit.

    And as their initial work ethic was already jeopardized by that prior arrogance, they have simply continued to not work hard enough, not push hard enough. So there is no resolution in just pushing through.

    After all, what's the point if you know you're not good enough?

    That's where we stand. Arrogant, overconfident people who are exposed as such and accept it tend to withdraw, to lose sight of their own potential. "If I'm not everything, I'm nothing." But the reality is several of them are easily of MLS standard (not necessarily lock starters anywhere, but in the picture). They just don't believe it anymore.

    Ali, Bill and Jack Dodd poisoned the well. Bradley tried to unpoison it with tough love and by getting rid of egos, but then made it even worse by bringing in replacements who were substandard, because he's old and the league has grown. Had he just been a coach, with a serious GM behind him, it might have worked, at least until the year 3 BobBall burnout that happens at every one of his teams.

    I suspect the only cure at this point will be to start over with a mostly new first eleven. If these guys are going to regain their confidence and start winning, I highly doubt it will be possible working together, in this environment.

    This current stretch of playing guys like Mbongue is, I believe, for Herdman to judge if there's ANYTHING salvageable.

    We have enough leaving and enough open roster spots that those they can't force to move -- by promising they will NEVER see the pitch if they stay -- could easily wind up perma-benched, or sent down, or on perma-loans.

    THAT is almost certainly going to be his message. You either have enough self-belief, fight and pride to show it and stick, or you'll be stuck to a bench here or at TFC II until your contract expires. That, or get your agent to arrange a move for you, because we've had enough.

    Now the bigger issue is whether someone with zero club management experience can pull that off. That seems to me a dramatically high bar.

    Herdman is either a junior Postecoglou in training... or this is just going to get worse, with slightly different faces.

    And even if he is good enough, there's no guarantee Hernandez is good enough at attracting and signing players to give him what he needs.

    So, I hate to be brutal about it, but I think we're still a long way from knowing this will turn around.


    Last edited by jloome; 10-06-2023 at 11:08 AM.

  2. #32
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    2023 Wooden Spoon here we come!
    soon to be 3x Champions ('07, '12 and '23) -- Thank God for FC Cincinnati and DC United otherwise we'd have almost as many Spoons and Canadian championships)

    Last edited by Cas87; 10-06-2023 at 11:14 AM.
    Toronto FC,#CMNT & #CWNT, Scotland, Heart of Midlothian FC, Tottenham Hotspur FC
    "The Harder the Struggle, The Greater the Reward" - @OsoJ92

    AWAY DAYS - CHICAGO August 2017, MONTREAL March 2018

  3. #33
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    We promote the wrong kids and send them up too early. Half of the recent crop shouldn’t be with the first team.

    What makes youth talent special is not how good they are at a given moment but how quickly the good ones can learn and sponge everything up. We are promoting many guys who have already peaked.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    We promote the wrong kids and send them up too early. Half of the recent crop shouldn’t be with the first team.

    What makes youth talent special is not how good they are at a given moment but how quickly the good ones can learn and sponge everything up. We are promoting many guys who have already peaked.
    Our front office seems incapable of reading people well. Bill misreads his own staff; his staff misread the players and their competitive mindset. Idiots like Ali Curtis -- he really is a prize tool -- pump up their egos by getting them listings in the Guardian and crap like that, and by leaking to Mlssoccer's sycophantic bunch how much potential the kids have.

    Ibarra is a great example. At Atlanta, he allegedly complained for 18 months that he didn't want to be a number six, despite CLEARLY being his strongest role. He saw himself as an eight or even a 10 (their local press and bloggers have written about this).

    So they gave him a chance at eight... and he was inconsistent, made poor decisions and hurt the team.

    When he wouldn't relent, they moved him, and used the roster issue to solve two problems at once. His attitude was poor and he was arrogant.

    So naturally.... we took him.

    Watch some of JMR's play this year. Even now, with his career probably on the line at 18, he plays arrogantly. He one-touches passes when he should control first and has time to do so. His movement is uneven and his distances in support positions inconsistent. His balls into the box are inconsistent, even when trying to go to the three main danger spots, which should be msotly automatic.

    In fact, rather than grooving automatic good behaviors, a lot of them played for much of the year as if they didn't need to work hard in practise, as if they don't need to work harder than the other team to win games.

    Now that the bottom has dropped off post bald taskmaster, they are crushed. Reality is coming home to roost.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Our front office seems incapable of reading people well. Bill misreads his own staff; his staff misread the players and their competitive mindset. Idiots like Ali Curtis -- he really is a prize tool -- pump up their egos by getting them listings in the Guardian and crap like that, and by leaking to Mlssoccer's sycophantic bunch how much potential the kids have.

    Ibarra is a great example. At Atlanta, he allegedly complained for 18 months that he didn't want to be a number six, despite CLEARLY being his strongest role. He saw himself as an eight or even a 10 (their local press and bloggers have written about this).

    So they gave him a chance at eight... and he was inconsistent, made poor decisions and hurt the team.

    When he wouldn't relent, they moved him, and used the roster issue to solve two problems at once. His attitude was poor and he was arrogant.

    So naturally.... we took him.

    Watch some of JMR's play this year. Even now, with his career probably on the line at 18, he plays arrogantly. He one-touches passes when he should control first and has time to do so. His movement is uneven and his distances in support positions inconsistent. His balls into the box are inconsistent, even when trying to go to the three main danger spots, which should be msotly automatic.

    In fact, rather than grooving automatic good behaviors, a lot of them played for much of the year as if they didn't need to work hard in practise, as if they don't need to work harder than the other team to win games.

    Now that the bottom has dropped off post bald taskmaster, they are crushed. Reality is coming home to roost.
    Not sure of his attutude, but Ibarra is our most skilled player on the team. That includes the Italians.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof View Post
    Not sure of his attutude, but Ibarra is our most skilled player on the team. That includes the Italians.
    You must be kidding. Ibarra has some nice moments but in no way does he stand out. He regularly gets caught out or completely misses on his pass attempts.

    We definitely don’t have options a plenty in that role but I could care less if he leaves.

    At this stage, I truly don’t know if there’s more than 1-2 players that should remain on this team and even that is hard to choose.

    It’s simply incredible how poor our coaching and youth are. It’s times like these that I wish relegation was in place so that this club is forced to lose additional revenue.

  7. #37
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    Ibarra has the most potential of any of our current squad.

    Skill set is quite high for this league but he's playing in a position which requires a minimum capability level around him.

    He requires a doable system - unlike Berna who I don't think can succeed in any system MLS can provide.

  8. #38
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    Wearing the Caribana shirts tonight.

    Still ticked about the NYRB game at home this season where we let them play in red.

  9. #39
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    And that lineup looks about as promising as a fully brown banana.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    And that lineup looks about as promising as a fully brown banana.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeForbes View Post
    At least Owusu is finally getting a start.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamp Berg View Post
    At least Owusu is finally getting a start.
    I wonder if Herdman's reaction to watching Mbongue run around doing nothing last week was "just.... no."

  13. #43
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    Well, I don't expect it but a little revenge for 2008 would be nice. They're in must win mode, as were we with Brian Edwards inexpicably in net. Five goals later....

  14. #44
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    Holy shit... did I just see a striker provide defensive cover?!?

    When was the last time that happened?

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Holy shit... did I just see a striker provide defensive cover?!?

    When was the last time that happened?
    The Mullinho era.

  16. #46
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    Big fan of John Tolkin. Can see him moving to Europe shortly

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeForbes View Post
    lol so is that the last we see of Insigne or is he just starting his off-season a little early lol

  18. #48
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    Hey, some decent box defending for a change. Shocker.

  19. #49
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    Someone at some point has to tell Guitierrez that he can't just mark players off the ball and stand them up, he has to challenge to win it occasionally.

  20. #50
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    Stupid call. If Gavran was out when he touched it, the ball had already crossed.

  21. #51
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    yeah, well that was coming.

    Hard defensive work in the first half, but one mistake when you're bunkering is all it takes.

  22. #52
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    Jloome, have you ever discussed with your sources why the MLSE Board has no one on it with a sports industry background; and why MLSE has not hired a CEO? Are they even looking for a CEO?

    As bad as Manning is, the bigger problem here is ownership. It seems increasingly that 2016 to 2019 was a fluke, with what we have now the norm.

  23. #53
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    Annnnd.... that's what I mean by arrogant.

    Luqinhas is a good player. Giving him an open look from three feet out of the box is just insipidly stupid and arrogant. Someone has to at least try and block the fucking thing.

    Bah.

  24. #54
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    He goes through the back of Osorio to make that tackle, nothing called.

    I mean, as shit as we are, we never get a fucking call in this league.

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    gutierrez cheaply loses it and it goes all the way for a goal

  26. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by NK Toronto View Post
    Jloome, have you ever discussed with your sources why the MLSE Board has no one on it with a sports industry background; and why MLSE has not hired a CEO? Are they even looking for a CEO?

    As bad as Manning is, the bigger problem here is ownership. It seems increasingly that 2016 to 2019 was a fluke, with what we have now the norm.
    I don't think the board has ever come up, no. I don't get the sense anyone at the club sees any percentage in bringing it up. The fact is, even if there are board members who are interfering, or not paying attention at all, they would likely argue that most of the time, they're not the problem.

    Arguing systemic distress to the cause of the distress rarely works out well, especially when its people with money and power in other aspects of life.

  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amir. View Post
    gutierrez cheaply loses it and it goes all the way for a goal
    In the few minutes he's played for us, he's been absolutely dreadful. But he was dreadful at Vancouver, a better team, so I'm not sure anyone should be surprised.

  28. #58
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    Has a manager interim or otherwise started his career 1-12?

  29. #59
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    Can anyone read lips? I'm guessing that was something along the lines of "there's no lateral movement, no pace on the ball."

  30. #60
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    And... Franklin lets a man run right in front of him onto a diagonal ball.

    Remember his performance tonight, anyone who thinks his bright future should include starting next year, because he's nowhere near fucking ready.

 

 

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