The fact he got a 5 year extension in 2021 and we're still paying Armas, Bradley (and possibly Curtis after his 5 year extension) is probably a solid reason he's been given another chance, just because MLSE doesn't want even more dead money on the team.
Yes, exactly. He is contracted still, so it would take epically bad financials to get him fired.Originally Posted by rydermike
hate is a strong word- but im at this point now.
What hurts even more is one of my favorite NFL players share the same last name and its beginning to taint the positive experiences i've had in my lifetime.
for the love of god- remove this cancer.
What costs more Curtis buyout, the Armas payout, the Bob payout, $3.2MM per year Bernie (Better not just give Bernie away - he was a free transfer and BMs bible, Transfermkt says he is still worth $8mm), $500k Diamond, 3rd overall super draft (could have had Bambito went 3rd / McGuire went 6th - 10 goals this year), gave away Shaff to make room, not even entering the MAK for Priso deal, or the Solteldo, or the Salcedo, or the Poz fiascos etc…etc.
Adds up to way more than the last the 3 years on Manning's contract (Lets say $1MM per year). Easy decision and I was being generous and complimentary.
Last edited by Bushmancan; 08-02-2023 at 05:17 PM.
Bill manning is the worst. Fire him or remove him from TFC or a lot of memberships wont be renewed.
Yes this is for the TFC henchmen scouring the web for TFC chatter.
Why are you old people so slow . Get it going
LOL, they do not read this board. I can pretty much guarantee you that.
It’s not Bill. Bill is a nice man. He just can’t figure out why everyone he hires sucks and why his teams finish last every year. That’s not really Bill’s work, that’s other people. Look at RSL and TFC 2017, all his work.
Praise thy lord Bill!
As I said before, I've spoken with him, I like him on a personal basis.
People can be as angry at him as they want -- I told him I'd have fired him after Ali and Armas -- but as far as I can tell he IS a nice man, and he did think delegating to middle management (which is what 95% of executives do) was right. He still thinks it is, if the person is good at their job.
But he seems to be genuinely humbled and embarrassed to have foregone proper oversight of it all. He has told people this is the lowest his career has gone, and he feels a responsibility to fix it.
I don't know that that makes him any better at the job, or capable of turning it around. But I can't hold the invective people here have for him.
If I took all the corporate executives I'd ever met who were grossly over their heads without knowing it, there wouldn't be many left. Some of them were very nice people nonetheless. Often... not complicated. But nice. It's why the ones who play nice but aren't like to have them around. They never say no, they never want to fire anyone unless told they have to, they never interfere.
It's the NATURE of people getting promoted to those positions that it's done on trust and getting along to get along. It's why the Peter Principle exists. It's why extensive neutral studies from Pew Research show second-stage CEOs and later, in about 60% of cases, worse a company's fortunes rather than improving them.
The litany of gladhanding, borderline sociopathic grifters I've dealt with in media management, and covered as a reporter, have firmly convinced me at 34 that anyone who manages to rise to a position of power, particularly before about age 50, should probably be liquidated for the good of humanity. Very few are there for reasons that aren't venal, selfish and largely disinterested in the business they're supposed to govern.
I had my chance to move into that world but it was on terms. And the terms were "us (the big people) versus them (the little people)." And they were clearly stated as such.
Last edited by jloome; 08-03-2023 at 11:52 AM.
My post’s not directed at you Jloome but rather a general backhand comment on some of the narratives floating through the press that cover the team.
Being nice means I’ll be your friend. Being effective means you are right for the job. He’s only one of those. I would otherwise hope he’d have the good sense to step aside but that appears to be too much to ask.
Oh, totally. Different issues.
I mean, I once told him in a brief conversation that if he had any dignity, he'd have resigned on principle. But he's an ex-jock and a competitive type, and I think he feels like he has to turn it around. I also think from other sources he's been told if he doesn't he's gone anyway, so from his perspective there's no sense in not trying.
People also sometimes overestimate how easy it is to "bounce back" from losing an upper management job. I can tell you from personal experience that once you've reached a certain level at a big company, it's either you become senior management... or you retrain, because a) no one else will promote you to one of those roles, you have to be a known entity, either internally or through parallel connections and b) they want newer, younger blood.
It's entirely possible that if he gets fired, he won't get another top-level sports job, or even an executive level offer. He probably knows that and, not being that old, is fighting to protect his future.
My sympathy there only goes so far; as a club president, I imagine he's paid seven figures, or close to it, and is almost certainly over that when benefits are accounted for. I highly doubt he'll starve if this goes south.
And as I said, I'm pretty ruthless about work performance. I might be overestimating myself, but most of TFC wouldn't have ever been hired if I'd been signing the cheques. Their scouts, who are nearly all overseas, and their internal staff are mostly grossly underqualified, which is why they produce such mediocrity.
Apparently, their communications director is "a star", I'm told by the front office. She seems to have zero qualification for the job in a real media industry sense... but she is the daughter of a famous Colombian football manager and once worked for CONCACAF.
Coincidence, surely.
Last edited by jloome; 08-03-2023 at 12:26 PM.
The only difference between Victor M & past CONCACAF leadership is he's better at hiding the favours provided.
I got that wrong. Dad is a famous former coach in Colombia and she was hired FROM concacaf. Previously, she was a TV reporter in Colombia after going to Ryerson. That seems to have been brief, covering one tournament.
In terms of handling story assignments, developing story angles, developing stories, she has little relevant experience. I had reporters with more experience go into basic level PR jobs on a bi-monthly basis, as the money is better.
I've taught Canadian college journalism (and PR) and hired numerous Ryerson grads. Nobody straight out of Ryerson is ready for anything senior, anywhere. It's an experienced based business, when it comes to finding quality.
None were promoted to director of a large corporation's communications division, something one would assume would require vast media experience at a large-market level. (One was immediately promoted to being in charge of the Globe and Mail's systems, and then made a senior editor, but that was pretty rare, that sort of premature and immediate advancement. He's no longer in the biz.)
They just have no clue of what it means to hire quality (and that doesn't even discount her being good; the experience just isn't there.)
Last edited by jloome; 08-03-2023 at 12:38 PM.
Sounds about right. Sort of paints a sad tale of us all being on this doomed voyage together. I think it’s improbable we turn this around. I’m far enough into my career now where I’ve needed to put multiple people on performance plans and wait to see what happens. Nobody has ever turned it around. Anyone who had it in them always self-corrected before it reached crisis territory repeatedly.
They should be able to attract good people. Lots of passionate fans in the city and beyond. Many probably willing to take pay cuts too. Seems the politics and patronage rule the day.
I still remember Richard Peddie talking about giving Tom Anselmi TFC to manage. Basically said “Tom did good work for us and this was his reward managing this sleepy nothingburger”
That’s stuck with me watching this team over the years. Ownership has change of corse Sports is a rounding error to the telco business. TFC is so small compared to the Leafs / Raptors they treat it like a pack of gum.
Anyone reading this, ask yourself - have you ever resigned on principle? Has anyone you know ever done it?
I have rarely seen it, and even then only when the the person doing it clearly had other known options.
It is exceedingly common in movies and exceedingly rare in real life. 99% of the time, people hang on for severance, and save the principled resistance for later.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
My editor did it at the Sun, I've done it. My father once not only did it, but also helped them sell the company out from under him as he did it, because it was the only way to prevent the idiotic absentee owner from losing millions.
I mean, that's literally off the top of my head. It's not that uncommon. My former sports reporter/editor buddy did it. I know a former health authority chairman who did it. I can probably think of more if you give me a few minutes. (Edit: One of my own reporters, because she felt I didn't trust her.)
I suspect outside of the corporate world, people may be a little more principled than you think.
When I was a reporter making no money I turned down ludicrous sums to be a PR guy for, among others, the cigarette, firearms and oil industries. It wasn't a resignation but I had to turn them down on principle.
I like the answer to this on Footie prime. Asked if they'd got to Saudi for the $600M offered to Mbappe, Rhian Wilkinson had no hesitation in saying yes, Amy Walsh had no hesitation in saying no.
I suspect there are a great number of people who stay in jobs for less money than they could make, because they have what they need, and they have principles that are pretty bedrock.
I would love to have $$600M. I could do a lot of good with it, and that alone would make me question whether selling out for one measly year would be worth it. But if I was a woman, or gay? No.
Nobody needs that sort of money anyway, and anyone offered it is probably already in that subset. It's just greed masquerading as insecurity.
Having said that, I'm sure severance does mean that the overwhelming majority of the time it doesn't happen.
Last edited by jloome; 08-03-2023 at 02:47 PM.
^Interesting. Food for thought.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
I think to take such a position is exceedingly difficult given each owns personal status within the socio-economic-politico-media climate of today. For instance, take this latest consideration, The Athletic, and what 'their staff' has essentially done to 'their own' at parent NYT's sports department.
A lot of folk -- autistic people like myself included -- don't have as much 'fear factor' as a healthy survival instinct would engender. Principle's a lot easy when you're too dumb to realize how tough the road ahead could be.
Equally, sometimes the principled are just naive. When Quebecor bought the Sun chain, my editor got agreements with his opposite numbers at the Ottawa, Toronto and Calgary Suns that they'd all walk if they threatened more jobs. He did... the others didn't.
I mean, he bounced back with government and oil industry PR jobs that paid more than the publisher was making, so...
But I doubt he would've done it he'd known he was going alone.
To add to what jloome stated
Principles come in different versions
Heck, just my recent job search
Pretty easily could have spent the mental capital to move to a second round or higher interview for a high paying job with
a) greenbelt lands exploiting company
b) tobacco
c) cannabis
d) big pharma
e) hedge fund
f) retirement home mega firm
g) exploitative high end restaurant run by scummy dude and his team
not to mention the various other companies who I interviewed with and went "nope, not going to work for somebody who treats their employees like crap"
I either declined or didn't put the effort in knowing it was not a good match for me
In this now post events of 2020 world, some (not all) people are making decisions based on a lot of different criteria then they were a few years ago.
Said with the most respect, this isn’t a thread about waxing poetic about standing on principal or referencing/rumouring idle gossip about others may or may not be qualified for their jobs (not necessary btw).
It is about, do you have any confidence that TFC is moving forward?
Is BM doing his job?
Is TFC better off now than we were 3 years ago. Will we be better off in a year under the current leadership.
Currently, there is no reason to believe this will be so. We just went through a window, where we are last and with 10 games left in virtually last place. The odds are so stacked against us to make the playoffs …. Do something great, tear it down, but nope, BM chooses crickets.
Oh, I don't think his odds of surviving this are good. Don't mistake us discussing the fact that he's not Emperor Palpatine with thinking he's fixed anything.
The issue there is lack of accountability, the kind of daily metrics and direction required to achieve any sort of excellence.
It's a top-to-bottom problem.
I don't even think I'm that ruthless, and I'd clean house. And I mean pretty much top to bottom: corporate operations, scouting, communications, football operations. Waaaay too many people there without the track record before or since, coasting on a few good years of Seba, basically.
I’ve heard differently.
If I may humbly ask, what if any scenario will get Manning fired?
Losses pile up....a disaster season...and STILL?!?!?!?!?!? he is employed?
Idiots at MLSE are probably holding on to Bill based on the Argos success on the field.
Probably right.
So we need the Argos to suck to get him maybe fired here?
In any other team in any sport in the world, Manning would have been fired long ago...but here, remarkably, the worse we get, the more entrenched he seems to be without ANY accountability whatsoever.
Low budget Montreal who guts their team, literally own us now. Unbeliavably embarrasing. Yet Manning continues to run us into the ground.....
keeping dunfield on for this long should be another fireable offence.
we're on a 7 games losing streak under him.
we've had fewer shots on target in the 5 MLS games combined under terry than in the last game under bob.
the players know he's not going to be here an are putting in half effort. look at oneill on their first goal yesterday, no effort to block the shot. mabika has regressed badly, ibarra being put out of position, petretta looked like he took an intentional red in order to not have to play for a while...
bob got fired 2 months ago and we're in a far, far worse position...
I think Manning is utterly useless, but I'll defend him a little here
Replacing Dunfield now with another interim coach may help short term results but that doesn't really get us anywhere. So it's only worth replacing him with someone who you think is sticking around for a while
So I'm actually happier to suffer in the short term if it means spending longer to get a coach because you're making the right, long term hire rather than rushing in. So from that perspective, honestly, I'm okay with Dunfield being around despite it being a dumpster fire
Now, if after all this, he's truly talking about Herdman or Carl Robinson, then yeah, burn the whole thing to the ground.
we're going to end the season on a 16 game losing run with dunfield. that's damn near a half MLS season worth of games.
what's javier perez doing? he was the most tactically astute coach we've had since vanney. he'd be a hell of a lot better.
we're getting worse week on week, a losing run like this will make everything about the offseason harder.
Going to make it harder on them to sell these memberships, get renewals, and keep up the charade of a waiting list for sure.
great shout out on Perez...he'd be excellent. Dunfield is waaaaay in over his head....should be gone asap as well.
This season is spiraling into a farce.
Perez had the cojones to bench MB and realized long before almost anyone that MB was done...and for that I always thought highly of him...he was on an interim basis...no doubt wanted to get a full time gig and knew the repurcussions behind the scenes of not starting MB but he nevertheless did what he felt was best for the team and did it.
Dunfield has a deer in the headlights look...totally just a nice guy, but no business leading us. 4 games was enough but this is getting to be ridiculous. And starting MB last light after 3 months off also to me shows he just doesn't have what it takes to bne a manager here..he's scared to make the big decisions and it leads to the players not respect him just like the players didn't like/respect Bob either.
No clue who Montreal's coach is, but he beat us again with far less than what we have. Put him on our bench, and we beat Montreal easily all the time.
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