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  1. #211
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    If you judge Manning on the business side of things only he still hasn't succeeded, and TFC's club stature has receded ever since our cup win. We're largely irrelevant in this city unless there is some scandal like we saw with Berna.

    Business and football go together, you can't isolate them.

    He might be a good person but he had numerous opportunities to fix the mess. You cant really put faith into him fixing things as much as he really wants too, it's to late for that now.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    If you judge Manning on the business side of things only he still hasn't succeeded, and TFC's club stature has receded ever since our cup win. We're largely irrelevant in this city unless there is some scandal like we saw with Berna.

    Business and football go together, you can't isolate them.

    He might be a good person but he had numerous opportunities to fix the mess. You cant really put faith into him fixing things as much as he really wants too, it's to late for that now.
    Oh, no doubt. This is an exercise in self-preservation at this point. I don't like his odds, given what's come before. My only reservation is the level of vitriol. Less an issue here, where most of the anger is, righteously, about performance and not painting people as Bond villains.

    Even if he does somehow pull off a big turnaround, a lot of eyes will remain exceedingly wary, and with good reason.

    As I've said before, his job is basically to choose and oversee a team, make sure it performs.

    But he was handed a great one, and now eight years later we have a pretty piss poor one. And I'm not sure he believes that; I think he values some of these people for reasons of loyalty and political expediency, and that self-serving tribalism just kills quality, in any setting.

    Equally, if I'm a board member, are results going to be enough --no matter how good -- to overlook the lack of judgement in handing shit first to Ali and Jack on the football side, then to Bob? And not staying on top of any of them? It's a lot to look past.
    Last edited by jloome; 09-08-2023 at 02:32 PM.

  3. #213
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    I just don’t think he’s ever grown from his small market RSL days in how to run a club, vs a bigger more resource filled club like TFC who [used] to have a much larger fan base with higher levels of expectations (especially with what Leiweke and bez era built and promised us into the future), the demands and everything one should stay ontop of.

    he and lagerway caught lightning in a bottle with Kreis in that possession filled RSL squad - lagerway with most the shrewd moves and from what I remember enabling just a very professional ops/first team environment with the tiny budget they had . Lagerway kept that mindset but understood the assignment when going to Seattle and now Atlanta; more stakeholders, more requirements, more expectations and higher ambitions - more resources, more need to dial in all things .

    Manning it’s never felt like he’s left the paradigm of running a smaller club like RSL. He got the position, tried to make some roledex peer hires, detached and walked away and never really had the ethos of a big market club president (like a leiweke) should have, even while delegating to other roles, and evaluating on their performances and expectations of everything below him. It’s all felt lacking in ambition, passion, creativity and that killer mentality to seek out and demand nothing but the best that can be afforded(and we aren’t talking DPs). Leiweke might have built a strong staff and they (like bez and his staff) were the real engine room - Leiweke was still very hands on and dialed into the pulse vs. how things appear now.

    At least he’d take the go-train or street cars to and from places, and be the first to engage people like me wearing a TFC T-shirt how I thought things were going, and what pissed me off- and not shy away (this was when weren’t so hot and Defoe had been a failure). Or if I saw the email blast that came out about the upcoming bbq day and that I should rsvp to chat more. Just generally speaking being more hands on.

    *edit to kinda check my own ignorance lol… I guess he was top dog so he had the ability to set those standards across the organization, but I still think we are missing a leader like that
    Last edited by FiveThreeTwo; 09-08-2023 at 03:06 PM.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Which is how it works now. He's a corporate executive. There are large swaths of the corporate executive world whose only real job is "oversight" and "the bottom line." I think as long as the latter was healthy, he didn't really worry about the former.

    As I said, though, I've talked to him enough times that my sense is that he was ill-suited to the role initially, as he works mostly off trust relationships, and the American football scene -- and any large organization, let's be honest -- is rife with untrustworthy self-promoters.

    My sense has always been that he was naive, not lazy or malicious, and that he sees fixing what he let happen as his entire remit now, basically.

    He knows he fucked it all up, he's not happy, he's trying to fix it. I don't know if he can. People can assume it's solely self-protection if they want, but my sense is that he was genuinely humbled by it all -- and not just because he's actually said to several people "this is humbling. This is the worst moment in my professional life."

    I think it would be easier for people to view him with less hostility if he came out and said some of this stuff publicly, instead of to a handful of people he already knows and gets along with. But I tend to be naÔve about how neurotypical people will react to outreach.

    His unwillingness to be open and engage is really hurting that effort. I'd put it down to bad advice, but beyond his relationship with Jason, I'm not sure he's taking any from staff anymore. It hasn't gone so well in the past, and there are -- to my eye -- large numbers of underqualified people at MLSE, including numerous essentially political appointments.

    If he's more worried about the internal politics than the quality of information flow and collaboration, the value of staff and how they should be used, he's not going to make it. My sense unfortunately is that that is the case. He wants to fix it, but he's not being nearly aggressive enough in structural reform and renewal.

    EDIT: And I did put the "resign out of priciple" question to him. His answer -- which people will take however they want based on existing opinion -- was "I'm the one who fucked this up, I'm the one who should fix it." It wasn't a line, it was very much in the context of "if I don't, I'm going to get fired anyway, so I might as well try."

    EDIT2: And for a few people who've either asked or emailed me and said "Do you actually LIKE this person?!?" my answer would be yes, I do. I like Bill Manning as a person. Perhaps if they'd ever had a human conversation with him, they would too. That hasn't prevented me from telling him he's a fuck up who should have been fired.

    Would it be good if he pulled it off and we were a good team again? Yes. Am I certain he can do it? Hell no. But I still like the guy personally, and if he pulls it off, I'm not going to emaiil and tell him to quit anyway for being such a fuck up in the past. Having fucked up many things in my life, including some pretty big, important things, I have a degree of empathy for his situation. Not a ton, but a degree.
    For what itís worth (Iíve not met him), he always seems reasonably genuine, open, and trying hard during the many press conferences Iíve seen.

    Too many press conferences, of course, it would fewer if he hadnít fucked up again and again. But I donít imagine heís not a good guy. Ingenuous, probably, yes.

  5. #215
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    Fire Manning!! i don’t care what anyone else says MLSE has to be watching, Argos success or not. TFC the past two years are a massive failure. From fan engagement, player choice, injuries, coaching, young depth destruction etc.. Toronto FC failures last year were blurred with the local CMNT hype and the idea with BB they were were turning it around, but there was none of that this year.

    IMHO, it was a beautiful night and yet, a really rough game day; no forewarning of no Prince or no Cash, watching Richie as a Whitecap, fans very quiet first half. They were boo’d off tonight by the general stadium at the end of the game and I think the players actually tried tonight, even with the bizarre subs at the end.

    The latest Gio debacle just reinforces the lack of leadership at the top. It is really sad for this organization. We are last place, we aren’t making the playoffs so what does it say to the players and fans having Gio compete for a spot. Neither Manning nor Hernandez commented, i think they may have been playing Gio (who is so desperate to play)

    Based on reults, I would have been ok for a one day/ short term contract and retire a Red (wait a Pink or a Dark Grey & Red stripe or…). Then do a one game walk out but i think putting Gio and the rest of the players and fans through this was plain wrong (even if he wanted to play).

    Dunfield’s comments were so revealing, he said Gio was 2 - 3 weeks from game ready to be fairly assessed, I call BS….Pros know, Fans know. We also have have 7 games left…don’t play him then until the 4th or 5th game and take a flyer. Having him assessed for next year is now just another distraction and lack of leadership.

    Manning can’t seriously intend to let Gio ever see the pitch next year and to be honest it is probably the right thing, but very wrong way to go about it. How did they even let him try out to begin with if they didn’t feel he would help the team in some way?

    It is almost like Manning was leading him on and trying to destroy one more great thing about the club…. Manning has to go.
    Last edited by Bushmancan; 09-17-2023 at 05:10 AM.

  6. #216
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    I am not sure of the complete story here but at face value, good on the supporters.


  7. #217
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    Factually inaccurate. They are tied for last with a game in hand. TFC is winning the wooden spoon race and we have a chance to cement our lead on Wednesday.

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    If he won't do the right thing and quit/resign, fire him now, enough is enough!!!!! He's made us into a absolute laughingstock....forget rest of the mls...low budget Canadian teams dominate us. Humiliating.

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    friendly reminder why we all feel this way for almost three full seasons and have paid astronomical pricing for tickets, concession and merchandise.

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by FootBallAZ View Post
    friendly reminder why we all feel this way for almost three full seasons and have paid astronomical pricing for tickets, concession and merchandise.
    Yup and now it's time for the pain to be felt on the other side for a change.

    Deal with it MLSE.

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    Yup and now it's time for the pain to be felt on the other side for a change.

    Deal with it MLSE.

    i should just give out the rep';s name and number who contacted me twice yesterday- ive ignored all their emails and calls.

    i will pay what i owe $180 but its really difficult to justify it because i cant even get 50% back on my face value tickets -

  12. #222
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    At this point we should not even say his name or have it in threads

    Hearing the name and reading it makes me so frustrated

    He is evening devaluing one of my all time nfl players in peyton manning


    Never expected that to happen.

    This guy probably smiling oiling is scalp
    Saying i been to 5 mls cup finals

    He should ssay wooden spoon for 3 years straight is highly impressive with the money he spent.

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by FootBallAZ View Post
    Copy and paste this in the death watch thread.

    I kind of feel bad for Insigne and Berna, who've been
    really disappointing IMO, but they're signings a perfect example of the Bill Manning special, and part of a pattern: lazy scouting, grandiose promises of the 'TFC project' poor evaluator of players/execs, overpaying for overrated players.

    He probably just wanted free vacays to Italy and the press that come along with signing two Italian internationals. He's a disease that infects the entire org with his poor decision making, and my fear is that no matter who the GM or coach or what players we sign, if he's still in charge, we'll still suck.

    Bill is THE definition of a carnival barker and self promoter, who's positioned himself mythologically as a genius.


    PS: I recall two specific posters being vociferously promoting the Insigne and Berna signings. Wonder how they feel about them now...

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by FootBallAZ View Post
    i should just give out the rep';s name and number who contacted me twice yesterday- ive ignored all their emails and calls.

    i will pay what i owe $180 but its really difficult to justify it because i cant even get 50% back on my face value tickets -
    We're all frustrated by the team, don't blame someone doing their job, they're people just trying to make a living.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    We're all frustrated by the team, don't blame someone doing their job, they're people just trying to make a living.
    I don't know what's worse. The fact that Bill Manning has essentially destroyed this club, or that MLSE just sat back and let it happen. I won't say that MLSE sat back and "watched" it happen as I doubt anyone on that Board has ever watched a game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NK Toronto View Post
    I don't know what's worse. The fact that Bill Manning has essentially destroyed this club, or that MLSE just sat back and let it happen. I won't say that MLSE sat back and "watched" it happen as I doubt anyone on that Board has ever watched a game.
    They have no emotional stake. To corporate boards, products are numbers, not culture or heart.

    I remember watching a video from a guy who wasn a serial entrepreneur startup guy, and had made hundreds of millions doing it. He said his methodology is simple: find an underserved market so that you know who your customers are before you start, then give them what they want.

    The key was finding something no one was providing easily at that point and using other people's money, by demonstrating with an initual large market position (sale or purchase) that you're a player. So all he needed was a decent-scale angel investor to establish his product's viability on small scale and then a combo of bank financing and venture capital to scale up.

    When asked what his favorite product was he said "the ones with the widest profit margin." In fact, he'd sold every one of his companies at peak, and didn't care about what any of them did.

    And that, for the most part, is what a corporate board is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    They have no emotional stake. To corporate boards, products are numbers, not culture or heart.

    I remember watching a video from a guy who wasn a serial entrepreneur startup guy, and had made hundreds of millions doing it. He said his methodology is simple: find an underserved market so that you know who your customers are before you start, then give them what they want.

    The key was finding something no one was providing easily at that point and using other people's money, by demonstrating with an initual large market position (sale or purchase) that you're a player. So all he needed was a decent-scale angel investor to establish his product's viability on small scale and then a combo of bank financing and venture capital to scale up.

    When asked what his favorite product was he said "the ones with the widest profit margin." In fact, he'd sold every one of his companies at peak, and didn't care about what any of them did.

    And that, for the most part, is what a corporate board is.
    Looking at the make up of that board, except for Larry T, they are all telecom employees. Given that MLSE is a sports ownership and management company you would think that there would be at least one or two people with a sports management background.

    As long as MLSE owns TFC I don't think you will ever see another championship. The best thing TFC fans can hope for is that MLSE sells the team to someone who cares.

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    is it time for someone to leave the fish rots from the head down sign at BMO?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmancan View Post
    I am not sure of the complete story here but at face value, good on the supporters.

    Is this something the southend can organize?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FootBallAZ View Post
    Is this something the southend can organize?
    Doubtful. They check flags and stuff now and I have heard of anti-management flags being refused. Also they were actively looking to find out who held up the "How Many Will Fall on Your Sword" banner outisde BMO earlier this summer because it was offensive for some reason.

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    Protests are likely irrelevant this late in the season.

    My educated guess is that Bill knows that TFC is going to be a dumpster fire for at least the next year, whether he blames himself or not. His strategy will be to get the Argo's into a playoff position and resign at the end of their season, using their success to mask the stench of failure surrounding MLSE's soccer organization.

    He has zero reason to fall on his sword during the MLS season and cement the failure when he can gloss over it in a few months.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woolly View Post
    Protests are likely irrelevant this late in the season.

    My educated guess is that Bill knows that TFC is going to be a dumpster fire for at least the next year, whether he blames himself or not. His strategy will be to get the Argo's into a playoff position and resign at the end of their season, using their success to mask the stench of failure surrounding MLSE's soccer organization.

    He has zero reason to fall on his sword during the MLS season and cement the failure when he can gloss over it in a few months.
    I bet heís holding out hope for a miracle turnaround next year. Really has very little to lose by waiting until heís forced out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woolly View Post
    Protests are likely irrelevant this late in the season.

    My educated guess is that Bill knows that TFC is going to be a dumpster fire for at least the next year, whether he blames himself or not. His strategy will be to get the Argo's into a playoff position and resign at the end of their season, using their success to mask the stench of failure surrounding MLSE's soccer organization.

    He has zero reason to fall on his sword during the MLS season and cement the failure when he can gloss over it in a few months.
    Must be nice to have a high paying job where you are seemingly accountable to no one.

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    Let’s put this into context if the Leafs were 10-47-25 would Shanahan still be President after he has fired two GMs and 3 coaches? And after two abysmal seasons before this one. Business is business…. Fire Manning!!

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    EVrey day I log on and hope this thread announces Manning has been fired...and every day he seems to avoid any accountability at all for this 3 year death spiral into humilation with the highest payroll in the league.

    If he had any shame, he'd resign. He has literally ruined us.

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    results speak- This may never be repeated,

    1) highest payroll …. lowest points.

    2) Club Legends not honoured because of his ego - Gio, Jozy, MB. Tonight was a joke you couldn’t do a 2 Minute Clip Highlighting MBs career, there was zero merch. It starts with the President.

    My SSH renewal is completely dependent on BM’s involvement in the club.

    Btw - he shouldn’t wait to be fired, he should resign out of embarrassment
    Last edited by Bushmancan; 10-21-2023 at 08:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmancan View Post
    results speak- This may never be repeated,

    1) highest payroll Ö. lowest points.

    2) Club Legends not honoured because of his ego - Gio, Jozy, MB. Tonight was a joke you couldnít do a 2 Minute Clip Highlighting MBs career, there was zero merch. It starts with the President.

    My SSH renewal is completely dependent on BMís involvement in the club.

    Btw - he shouldnít wait to be fired, he should resign out of embarrassment

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmancan View Post
    results speak- This may never be repeated,

    1) highest payroll Ö. lowest points.

    2) Club Legends not honoured because of his ego - Gio, Jozy, MB. Tonight was a joke you couldnít do a 2 Minute Clip Highlighting MBs career, there was zero merch. It starts with the President.


    My SSH renewal is completely dependent on BMís involvement in the club.

    Btw - he shouldnít wait to be fired, he should resign out of embarrassment

    1) MLS History- only team with multiple 20 season lossess
    2) Lowest win in TFC History
    3) Back to back wooden spoon

    to not have seb or Jozy at MB's final game speaks volumes to the arrogance of Bill Manning- other examples-

    1) not bringing seba's trainer back, making Seba and Jozy both play out their final year (not the standard)
    2) over paying Jozy- due to messing up negotiations with Seba ( still paying $1mill of his salary)

    Then the rest we all know:

    3) lack of transparency
    4) lack of accountability ( as noted by the article earlier this year-best job in MLS and not having accountability
    5) Hiring and Firing GM and Coach who were friends (still paying their salaries)
    6) Hiring and Firing Bob Bradley( still paying his salary)
    7) allowing for the team to be completed gutted with no positive results shown
    8) Increasing Ticket pricing
    9) Increasing Concession prices
    10) Firing Existing Reps during pandemic to hire inexperienced Reps


    The one that bothers me the most -

    11) Hiring an inexperienced Head Coach to clean up the mess from the previous two times ( in hindsight could have kept Perez)

    12) Hiring an inexperienced Manager to clean up the mess from Bob Bradley's free reign

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    Pretty much the Man Utd of MLS except we don't bring in premium mangers. The support infrastructure is garbage

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    its sad the momentum for this thread is dying down- i assume everyone has become numb and gave up realizing this guy wont take responsibility and man up and exit TFC to have some dignity or respect from supporters

    This guy out smarted all of supporters, the MLSE board and our most talented players.

    I feel disgusted this is happening on our watch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FootBallAZ View Post
    its sad the momentum for this thread is dying down- i assume everyone has become numb and gave up realizing this guy wont take responsibility and man up and exit TFC to have some dignity or respect from supporters

    This guy out smarted all of supporters, the MLSE board and our most talented players.

    I feel disgusted this is happening on our watch.
    Nah we're just waiting to see what his next round of scouting brings in. Rumour has it he has not one but two tabs open on his browser, one is the 2017 Toronto FC squad and the other is Toronto city demographic information. It's the soccer equivalent of Moneyball. Once he cross references that data with transfermarkt we'll be set to dominate

 

 

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