Next Coach discussion - update Herdman is now coach

[JoesphNdo]

I'm not sure I understand it, logically.

It's harder to coach a national team than a club, by pretty much universal acknowledgement. You can't call players whenever you want, you can't pick and choose roster unless at a big country, you have a fraction of the time, sometimes as little as three days a month, to actually talk to and work with them.

It used to be considered such a position of different, disparate functions that it wasn't a full-time job for most countries until the nineties. Prior to that, it was quite common for a club manager to also be the national team manager.

Not taking a stance here, and mostly I'm fine with this appointment, but these are the reasons why not being proven at club level could matter - because there's alot more to do at club level, and more control, therefore more decision points where making good or poor decisions matters

It'd be similar to being a marketing staff member at a huge company vs head of marketing at a small company. It's much harder for the former to affect change because they have far less sway and less control over the variables that they'd like to have control over, so in that sense it's 'harder', but that's also why there's more asked of the head of marketing and why it requires someone with more skill

Put another way, if I had to pick in isolation the best manager in the world and was given two resumes with no other info - one was successful at international level and one at club level, I'm picking the latter every time. It's a higher level in that way, it's much more of a reflection of your overall skills, and it's harder to be successful because you make alot more decisions

[jloome]

Not taking a stance here, and mostly I'm fine with this appointment, but these are the reasons why not being proven at club level could matter - because there's alot more to do at club level, and more control, therefore more decision points where making good or poor decisions matters

It'd be similar to being a marketing staff member at a huge company vs head of marketing at a small company. It's much harder for the former to affect change because they have far less sway and less control over the variables that they'd like to have control over, so in that sense it's 'harder', but that's also why there's more asked of the head of marketing and why it requires someone with more skill

Put another way, if I had to pick in isolation the best manager in the world and was given two resumes with no other info - one was successful at international level and one at club level, I'm picking the latter every time. It's a higher level in that way, it's much more of a reflection of your overall skills, and it's harder to be successful because you make alot more decisions

Okay, I can buy that argument. It's a much tougher culture to exist in, for sure.

Still, I'm not sure he got any real support from the CSA. And given how many friends he made in the Canadian game outside of the agency, I have to think he's pretty good with people, which will lessen a lot of the political burden.

But if he doesn't get the right support, sure, it could be hard.

[Red CB Toronto]

Nice to see Terry will remain on the first team staff as announced by Herdman. I feel for the guy after being fed to the wolves during his interim stretch.

[portu]

Dumbfield staying on first team staff says to me the Italians are gone.

The worst coach in this club’s history remaining on staff says that they’re not making a play for increased credibility with the stars going forward.

[ag futbol]

I’d prefer if he left once Herdman arrived or returned to the the academy. No credibility to remain with the first team.

[portu]

The thing I love about Herdman is that you absolutely know he will die trying to fix this team.

It’s not spoken about enough but hiring someone for any role that will put in a genuine 110% is gold.

I remember the thing that made me think Tata was going to succeed in Atlanta was hearing that he had researched the roster rules and had notes on every team in the league.

Success is not guaranteed and these kinds of hires make sure it’s not for a lack of effort. Always a solid bet.

[OgtheDim]

The presser with Herdman

https://www.torontofc.ca/video/press...august-29-2023

[OgtheDim]

He's bringing his staff in by the sounds of things - a lot of "we" in his words today.


Conway might be out...

[Gringo Starr]

I wish they would have asked him more about his vision for TFC rather than his reasons for leaving the CMNT, anyone who cares enough to watch the presser knows the CSA is a shit show

[FiveThreeTwo]

*edit - after listening to the presser, my initial comments were basically answered. But definitely sounds like what you guys have been saying - that this iteration of TFC might get back to basics around academy development with focus on building up local players/academy over buying up and plugging in solutions. Would definitely tick the boxes that a lot have mentioned was missing for a while.

[jloome]

The presser with Herdman

https://www.torontofc.ca/video/press...august-29-2023

Interesting stuff. Lays it out pretty plainly.

[SenorDingDong]

I particularly like that he is bringing in his whole staff to do a reset of the culture. Badley needed. Focus on getting tier 1 players from the academy is also great.

Only safe player on the team seems to be Osorio.

[MikeForbes]

Developing young players and using your academy is a wise idea, but takes years to actually do. It takes having great coaches and the scouting to identify the right players. In the meantime, we can't just become a CMNT retirement home for guys like Hoilett and Vitoria.

[Hala Hrvatska]

Well, hope it works out....but still, Manning must be gone.

The story goes it was Herdman contacting TFC for the job. Presumably if he didn't he wouldnt be here now.

So am wondering, why was he not under consideration before? Hernandez and Mannning gushed about him in the presser...but he literally fell into their lap. Why was he not considered a candidate before Herdmann called them? There was something that made them not consider him.....and its not that they gave two s.hits about the Canadian team having to search for a replacement.

Also, am wondering how much this role pays vs what he was making for Canada.

[Ultra & Proud]

Well, hope it works out....but still, Manning must be gone.

The story goes it was Herdman contacting TFC for the job. Presumably if he didn't he wouldnt be here now.

So am wondering, why was he not under consideration before? Hernandez and Mannning gushed about him in the presser...but he literally fell into their lap. Why was he not considered a candidate before Herdmann called them? There was something that made them not consider him.....and its not that they gave two s.hits about the Canadian team having to search for a replacement.

Also, am wondering how much this role pays vs what he was making for Canada.

Hernandez probably figured Herdman would never leave Canada with a home WC coming up because who would really? As for Manning, Herdman wasn't a MLSer, a former USMNT player/coach, or from a team he played on so Herdman would never have been on his list.

As for the pay, since Herdman had to crowd fund his staff to be paid I feel safe in saying he wasn't getting paid much, or often, and probably not lately either.

[ag futbol]

Developing young players and using your academy is a wise idea, but takes years to actually do. It takes having great coaches and the scouting to identify the right players. In the meantime, we can't just become a CMNT retirement home for guys like Hoilett and Vitoria.

I don’t think there’s much risk of that. Vitoria already flamed out in MLS once and if Hoilett actually comes we’d be better off for it.

The thing we are at risk of however is TFC being too aggressive chasing down Canadians because they want a star player on their roster when WC26 arrives. That would just fit Bill’s psyche of going after the latest marketing idea rather than properly running a football club.

I’m not opposed to having someone (this is a business after all) but it shouldn’t be a preoccupation.

[Bushmancan]

I don’t think there’s much risk of that. Vitoria already flamed out in MLS once and if Hoilett actually comes we’d be better off for it.

The thing we are at risk of however is TFC being too aggressive chasing down Canadians because they want a star player on their roster when WC26 arrives. That would just fit Bill’s psyche of going after the latest marketing idea rather than properly running a football club.

I’m not opposed to having someone (this is a business after all) but it shouldn’t be a preoccupation.

I don’t disagree, just Jr. Is a class act and quality player. I also don’t think they are chasing him down, everything i have seen is he would like to come here.

We could have had him on a free and I am sure he would work with the club moving forward. Instead, we spent collectively more on two other aging players that have contributed i believe 1 goal if i am not mistaken.

The big thing for me is next year, we should have the #1 in the Superdraft…. Get it right, Canadian or American or other.

[ag futbol]

I don’t disagree, just Jr. Is a class act and quality player. I also don’t think they are chasing him down, everything i have seen is he would like to come here.

We could have had him on a free and I am sure he would work with the club moving forward. Instead, we spent collectively more on two other aging players that have contributed i believe 1 goal if i am not mistaken.

The big thing for me is next year, we should have the #1 in the Superdraft…. Get it right, Canadian or American or other.

My antidotal observation is that CMNT plays a lot better with him on the field. He contributes in a lot of different ways that help the team.

Anyway, now that he’s getting up there and that window may have passed, unless he comes back on something in the sun 500 range.

[ManUtd4ever]

On the surface, this definitely seems like a lazy sort of hire by Manning driven primarily by optics to bolster season ticket renewals after a disastrous season.

That being said, I think Manning may have lucked out this time. Herdman has proven that he is capable of rebuilding a program from the ground up and resetting a culture under even more difficult circumstances.

I am cautiously optimistic that we have finally found some stability moving forward.

[SenorDingDong]

That being said, I think Manning may have lucked out this time. Herdman has proven that he is capable of rebuilding a program from the ground up and resetting a culture under even more difficult circumstances.

I am cautiously optimistic that we have finally found some stability moving forward.

He also lucked out because Herdmann came to TFC, not the other way around.

[jloome]

Adekugbe and Laryea say the Athletic's hit piece on Herdman yesterday was horseshit.

https://www.tsn.ca/soccer/sam-adekug...room-1.2001643

It tried to paint him as a profligate misspender for the size of his staff and for demanding Nike shirts. It failed to note that he personally fundraised to hire the staff, and it didn't come out of CSA's existing budget. It DID note that he got Nike to supply shirts for free, but then proceeded to intimate that is why they aren't as good as Umbro.

I'm telling you all now: I was a print journalist for 24 years and I can tell repeatedly shoddy reporting when I see it. They may be owned by the New York Times, but they're willing to print whatever salacious shit they're told, regardless of how wrong it is.

All they're doing is justifying it by the nature of the source, not the content of what they're being told. But that just makes them willing to be used to individuals' political ends. Yes, there is always some of that in covering a beat. But it's clearly their bread and butter. It leads to headlines that sell, and stories that are often valueless.

[FootBallAZ]

He also lucked out because Herdmann came to TFC, not the other way around.

which is why i would like to know- who was on Bill's radar prior to being approached by Herdman-- ?

[jloome]

which is why i would like to know- who was on Bill's radar prior to being approached by Herdman-- ?

I'm not sure that played out as it's being described. He and Herdman know each other really well. Literally the week he fired Bob, he was talking internally about getting someone who had proven themselves but deserved a "step up" to a club like TFC, which could describe any of the people they interviewed, including Herdman.

Saying the approach came from him prevents the CSA from perceiving TFC as poaching, potentially. But I would be unsurprised if it only came after he was encouraged to do so unofficially.

[jloome]

Caldwell, who was fired by Herdman from the Canada team, is asked to comment on him leaving. "Could be good!" he says, unsurprisingly.

Nothing unethical in having a guy cover the guy who fired him.... nah.

Makes a couple of nice comments about him but also rips several holes.

https://www.tsn.ca/soccer/video/is-h...ulture~2755152

[Canary10]

Caldwell, who was fired by Herdman from the Canada team, is asked to comment on him leaving. "Could be good!" he says, unsurprisingly.

Nothing unethical in having a guy cover the guy who fired him.... nah.

Makes a couple of nice comments about him but also rips several holes.

https://www.tsn.ca/soccer/video/is-h...ulture~2755152

A problem with Canadian soccer is how small and incestuous it is. It's almost impossible to get a legit outside view. Almost everyone has been hired and/or fired by someone in Canada.

I honestly don't know how anyone can swing this as a positive for Canada. The CSA is in turmoil. Who are they going to get right now as a coach when they have no money, have had to pitch for sponsorship just to send the support staff where they need to go and have no friendlies scheduled over the next few IBs?

[FootBallAZ]

A problem with Canadian soccer is how small and incestuous it is. It's almost impossible to get a legit outside view. Almost everyone has been hired and/or fired by someone in Canada.

I honestly don't know how anyone can swing this as a positive for Canada. The CSA is in turmoil. Who are they going to get right now as a coach when they have no money, have had to pitch for sponsorship just to send the support staff where they need to go and have no friendlies scheduled over the next few IBs?

i look at it as double negative.

bill manning - gets another life line while he handicaps canada soccer -as there is no funding to even hire someone close to herdman pedigree or better.

SMH burns so much

[hulkrogan]

Can someone kindly take me back in time and rehash my memory regarding the CSB deal? Why did Canada soccer sign this deal if it was so disastrous for them?

I thought it was signed when people didn't give a crap about Canadian Men's soccer, a couple years removed from losses to the likes of Martinique and Mauritania. At the time they were having to pay the big providers to put their games on TV. Someone offered them money, they saw dollar signs, and all the sudden it looks incredibly short sighted when the team continues to take massive steps forward.

I don't know what the answer is. I don't think cheering for the demise of the CPL is it. We've already seen the CPL keep players in the game that were about to leave it. Dominic Zator was going to quit and become an accountant, but then the CPL was formed, and he's on the field with the national team a few years later. Not saying the CPL is perfect, and the incestuous ownership structure looks completely problematic, but should we throw the baby out with the bathwater here?

Funding our national programs properly and having a domestic league thrive shouldn't be mutually exclusive. We will continue to have huge challenges, however, as our travel costs are off the charts compared to any other foreign league operating at the same level of play and/or revenue as the CPL. If you asked me if there should be government subsidies for hockey in Canada, I'd tell you you're insane. There is a massive revenue engine there that can and should give back to the lower levels that form the foundations it sits on. Soccer in Canada is not in the same state, so maybe the answer should be significantly different if we want to invest in it to try get it self sufficient.

Frankly, MLS should be catching criticism right along with the CPL. It's both been a great spot to foster Canadian talent compared to the complete vacuum we've had here, but now it's infiltrated our 3 biggest markets, and directly impacts the ability of a domestic league to thrive, all while primarily serving US soccer.

It's all a mess, lol.

[Ultra & Proud]

i look at it as double negative.

bill manning - gets another life line while he handicaps canada soccer -as there is no funding to even hire someone close to herdman pedigree or better.

SMH burns so much

That's not how it went though. Herdman came to Manning for the gig which means he was out the door no matter what. That's on the CSA and their mess. If not TFC, he would have ended up somewhere else before 2026. At least now he's given them time to hire someone.

I'm not defending Manning as he is inept but he didn't do anything to Canada Soccer. They did everything to themselves by being corrupt, negligent, or just plain stupid. Or all of those things.

And yeah, Manning gets a lifeline and as much as want him out, I want Herdman to succeed and I don't want to have to bitch through another 2 years of Manning out and be stuck with more Wooden Spoon TFC.

[Hala Hrvatska]

A problem with Canadian soccer is how small and incestuous it is. It's almost impossible to get a legit outside view. Almost everyone has been hired and/or fired by someone in Canada.

I honestly don't know how anyone can swing this as a positive for Canada. The CSA is in turmoil. Who are they going to get right now as a coach when they have no money, have had to pitch for sponsorship just to send the support staff where they need to go and have no friendlies scheduled over the next few IBs?

Yup. I wanted a (and before my good friend Oldtime jumps on me again...)) a Euro or South American experienced coach (and no American retreads like Bradley or Marcsh) to cut all ties here....

THis is a lazy hire for short term tickets sales....nothing more, nothing less. He wasn't even under consideration until offering himself up. What kind of "extensive" search was this when the guy you hired wasn't even a consideration before???? Embarassing but par for the course how Manning runs things. Herdman has never coached in club football....we have no time for on the job training.

The thing that bothers me the most of all this is that it buys Manning at least another 2 years of time. I hate that my money as a seasons holder is keeping him in his job literally.

[ag futbol]

A problem with Canadian soccer is how small and incestuous it is. It's almost impossible to get a legit outside view. Almost everyone has been hired and/or fired by someone in Canada.

I honestly don't know how anyone can swing this as a positive for Canada. The CSA is in turmoil. Who are they going to get right now as a coach when they have no money, have had to pitch for sponsorship just to send the support staff where they need to go and have no friendlies scheduled over the next few IBs?

Agreed. I have to laugh at some of the suggestions out there too.

One name I saw floated was Wilfried Nancy. As if someone like that is going to leave a stable club gig to work with a shit show association with no money where the players are striking and everything is in flux.