https://archive.ph/pKltd
toronto star article with more details about herdman leaving canada soccer.
it sounds even worse than we thought:
1) the CSB deal takes all the broadcast and sponsorship money, and they only see 2.5 M back. explains why they are so broke.
2) the two friendlies being cancelled was the final straw for herdman
3) the budget cuts for the national team programs are expected to get worse in the coming years.
If this is the case, I would highly suspect they’ll be so cash strapped they’ll need to file for creditor protection to get out of the CSB deal. But resolving that could be long, messy, and drag past the next WCQ cycle.
Harder for them to hide in the shadows now with WC26 approaching too. They’ll be feeling lots of pressure.
Forget the myths the media's created about the White House. The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand.
The problem with the CSA is they all think they are bright guys, nobody but the One Soccer people are even trying to believe that myth, and things get out of hand every single damn year.
CSB Pravda going full in with "people complaining about the CSA being unwilling to spend $ don't know what they are talking about"
I'm losing a lot of my like for Kristian Jack in all this.
I felt that way initially too but I do respect KJ. Some of what he says as counter arguments are interesting. Such as - think about who is reporting this stuff - guys that have never reported on Soccer previously or even supported it in the past. So they're like a dog on a bone to bash Canada Soccer. I think there is some merit to that. It's not a black and white situation though and KJ is taking a surprisingly polar position, typically I've seen him be a lot more neutral.Originally Posted by OgtheDim
I don’t get this point of view. There are a lot of CPL fanboys on Twitter who go after Westhead along those sorts of lines. “He never reported on soccer before” “his employer has an axe to grind because of media rights”
Seems like a huge reach compared to pointing to potential lack of impartiality from the station whose entire existence depends on robbing the national association of sponsorship dollars under a shady contract.
Exactly.
Noobs coming out of the woodwork with no experience and only coming up with click baitey headlines.
Bell Media (TSN/SN) have no one to blame but themselves for essentially forcing the CSA away. They would've raked in the cash had they supported the CMNT.
CSB isn't perfect but when someone says, we'll give you XYZ and the other option is "pay us", there's not really much of a choice.
CSB deal is on the verge of crushing Canada soccer.
Good chance federation will have to file bankruptcy in future due to this.
Non zero chance of WC being stripped if we fail to fulfill some fixtures too.
Btw if it was just broadcast, sure.
The commercial element of the deal is the issue. It's siphoning 10s of millions from the program leaving it on verge of bankruptcy and in giant conflicts with both the canmnt and canwnt.
It's a joke to listen to anyone on onesoccer in relation to this.
Their livelihoods rely on the CSB deal. They also almost certainly have an editorial line enforced.
They didn't even cover the story a couple months ago when canada soccer was reporting it may have to declare bankruptcy.
A huge joke, "home of Canadian soccer" my ass.
Last edited by leedsandTFC; 08-28-2023 at 11:28 PM.
These criticisms of Westhead are beyond ridiculous. Frankly, a soccer person is the last person we want covering the CSA/CSB story. Soccer is a tiny, insular community in Canada, and the few who make it their livelihood face brutal choices in terms of going after meaningful stories.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
Herdman is the TFC Head Coach
I am pretty happy with this.
I recognize the cognitive bias, this is a name we know, there are so many others that we don’t… but just to list some positives
1) I believe this is someone who has recently proven himself at a high level.
2) He also knows MLS, as half the elite talent in MLS play in Concacaf.
3) He also knows international football. This isn’t recycling Frank Yallop or something.
4) This is, by far, the best qualified person in the world to fix our Academy. By far. I hope this is something he is asked to spend real time on.
5) It gets us off the USMNT merry go round, something that had become stale, a game we were not winning.
6) Like it or lump it, TFC is always going to have a CMNT flavour. May as well start trying to do it right. (I like it, myself.)
I hope Herdman isn’t only leaping from a flaming ship. I think there has to be more to it. I still don’t believe he would have come just to work for the lamest of lame duck Presidents, and a raw rookie GM. We will see.
From a CMNT pov, I am glad he stayed in Canada. I think he may yet wind up managing the CMNT 2026 team. Just a hunch.
Last edited by ensco; 08-29-2023 at 01:53 AM.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
www.mlssoccer.com/news/toronto-fc-name-john-herdman-new-head-coach
what Ensco said. agreed
Disney might be the only idiots burning more money than TFC these days.
Can you expand on point #4 as I'm not sure why that high?
Is he going to bring accountability to the coaching? (as against going along with coaches because they know him)
Is he going to bring scientific rigour to player performance measurements? (or focus on "well he looks good")
Is he going to ensure the kids know that scoring goals at U-12 and lower is not as important as repetitive learning of the skills necessary to perform at higher levels? (or just throw the ball out there and say "you go lads")
What proof do we have Herdman can manage an academy team in 2023 better then Danny Dichio or Terry Dunfield?
And just like that the CPL has me rooting for it's demise almost as much as I do for the CFL.
Westhead has dug and found out how badly the CSA has treated the WNT. He's not a newbie
He's been able to do that because
a) he's a good journalist given freedom to find these things
b) the actual things he has found exist
He's reporting facts and news.
Sure, Bruce Arthur is no real fan of Canadian soccer and his punditry about soccer has always been slanted towards not looking for the good things. But for guys on the station funded by CSB's skimming of MNT revenues to claim reporting is biased and therefore should be ignored - that is not journalism.
************
I wanted the CPL to exist and thrive as community based teams using modern means of developing revenue while living within their means.
The model should have been an expansion on the regional based systems that already exist using streaming & low budget efforts to get the word out.
Instead, they went down the route of a national enterprise - it is not sustainable.
To prop this up for a year or two, they have resorted to pillage other people's efforts & thus possibly destroyed the potential for 2026 to be felt below MLS level.
The sustainability is still not there.
Herdman leaving is damning of the CSB and thus CPL.
************
The irony in all this is the efforts being made to bring forth a women's league are focusing on sustainability and accountability and might actually save Canadian soccer.
Last edited by OgtheDim; 08-29-2023 at 07:20 AM.
The proof is in the results. Canada Soccer is cancelling games for the CMNT, with a World Cup coming up at home.
^This is a good discussion to have, because it gets at the difference between having good people doing something for the first time (Dichio and Dunfield) vs having someone who has been doing something for a long time (Herdman).
Two things that make him unique:
1) Herdman is a teacher of kids. For many years. He started as a school teacher. He was also, first on the side, then as a career, coaching school kids in Sunderland starting age 22 in 1997. He became known for unorthodox methods and made enough of a name for himself that he was coaching U9s at Sunderland AFC by age 24. From there he went to New Zealand to coach semipro (he had been told he couldn’t advance in England because he wasn’t a former player, and followed a Sunderland AFC mentor there). He would up, pretty quickly, running one of the biggest youth development systems down there, one that put a bunch of NZ players in Europe. He also simultaneously started working for the national womens team there, becoming fulltime in that role in 2006. So he spent 9 years in purely youth development roles before becoming a manager. A lot of that with U 12s.
2) Then there is the record of CMNT youth development post 2018. His record is staggering. I am putting Davies aside, he is such a special case. But the stories of David, Buchanan, Johnston, Miller, Adekugbe, Laryea … each one is unique, the credit obviously has to be shared elsewhere, but still, in total… wow. Anybody who was following the CMNT in 2018, when Herdman started, knows that NONE of these guys were seriously in the CMNT picture back then. (I could add all kinds of other names, Kone, Waterman, St Clair, but I am trying to keep this simple). Guys coming through his team improve and keep getting better.
I think Herdman has a unique ability in a leadership role at TFC to both attract serious youth talent, and then actually teach those players something and make them better. I believe he will also have credibility in selling players on, as he would have developed relationships with all the clubs CMNT players are with (to discuss injuries, scheduling etc) which is something that TFC has been, not just bad at, but so horrible at, that it must scare youth players away in droves.
Last edited by ensco; 08-29-2023 at 08:18 AM.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
We have proof that both of them were abysmal at managing the academy and although Herdman is an unknown for that work here, he was a development coach at Sunderland's academy so he knows something about it and is more qualified than what we've had there.
I hope this works out of course.....but it also feels a bit like give them someone the fans like and recognize and save renewals for this year also. They needed to announce it now even though he is not taking over until Oct 1st and I think that is because they needed to get renewal cycle up and running.
I hope you are wrong, that this weird timing is just about Herdman's required notice period… but you could be right.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
Oh this is 100% behind all the decision making in this hire. 100% a PR, renewals game because if renewals tanked as everyone would expect them to, Manning would probably bite the dust. This is why we're this late in the year without a peep about renewals. Last year it started in July.
But it doesn't mean won't work out either. Both things can be true. A broken clock is right twice a day and a whole lotta days have passed without Manning doing anything right so he has to be due soon.
Is Tenllado coming with Herdman? He was a youth coach with Espanyol de Barcelona and has his Uefa pro-that might help the academies
Since they also quit at the same time as Herdman, I suspect assistant coaches Simon Eaddy and Eric Tenllado, lead scout Alex Dodgshon and head of performance Cesar Meylan are coming with him. We'll see!
It also kicks the deadline down the road for Manning who, even at our delusional board’s estimation, is probably on his last chance.
I'm not sold that he will survive anyways. Wouldn't surprise me to see Herdman strong arm his way right in to the backroom of TFC and get his people appointed everywhere, especially if he does well. He strikes me as a high ambition, ruthless sort and I could see him try to rule the roost.
It’s not a bad play. He might be a better president than coach to be fair.
Say what you will about his tactics, etc… his ability to recruit and charm the pants off people is 5-stars. I’m interested to see if he brings the scout with him too, that guy’s definitely done good things for Canada if he’s had his hand in identifying players.
I don't think he would go the president route but I could see him want the GM/Sporting Director/Manager profile and get a guy like Atiba to be president. Then fill the other positions with his people rather than the trash we have there now.
Craig Forrest, who is friends with him, said on Footy Prime today that Herdman had to, over the course of 12 years, go out and raise most of the money from private sponsorship himself to pay for his staff.
Jesus H. And we think TFC is a shitshow.
Agreed. The more of the existing staff that are replaced the more I like this (provided Manning goes too)
Beyond the resume stuff, he's just renowned in soccer circles for being incredibly meticulous. He LIKES micromanaging. He LIKES fixing player problems.
He's a doer. He gets value out of every minute of his work day. Forrest figures he's actually better suited to a club than country because having that much more to track and doing it daily will make him happy.
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