Bob Bradley Deathwatch Thread

[los sonadores]

Btw, the idea that the Coach and GM should be allowed to do their work without suit/ownership meddling is not a bad one. Because whether it’s Manning or Joey or another person either totally without practical experience or many years from it, chances are they don’t know better than the people closer to the pitch and to the daily workings.

To use a possibly useful analogy: bad movies (most hollywood movies) are made by producers who want to have a best selling movie but have little idea how movies are made. Good movies are made by directors and writers who are knowledgeable and who hire good people whose work they know and respect and who give them the freedom to work.

I don’t want my club firing and replacing the coaches and GM once or twice a season when the immediate results aren’t there. To me that is institutionalized madness. And in a cap league like MLS it’s especially crazy.

I think what’s most interesting in Bradley’s work with us is that this is the first time he has been coach and GM at once. It’s his first crazy long club contract, first time he’s been allowed a wild tear down with an entire season of no accountability. And frankly that was an ugly tear down and an ugly and arrogant season so I don’t think it suited him well. We are often saying he’s MLS 1 or 2 (even though he won the league very recently) but maybe the mistake has been that he has never had this much power and lack of accountability and for Manning to give it to him was foolish. He didn’t just give him the keys to the usual motor he drives but instead he gave him a sort of career topping position beyond anything he’s had before. And that is actually a speculative thing to have done, especially at 4 years for both roles.

But I don’t want Manning playing at being coach and/or GM when he has the time. I think he did enough of that bringing on board the Italians (very much breaking this so called distance anyway and showing he doesn’t really understand the sort of coach he’s hired).

[OgtheDim]

HOW cynical is this? They used Fede's quotes in the official team story... but cut out all his quotes about not having tactics, to change the context of the remainder:

https://www.torontofc.ca/news/toront...oal-to-give-up

Fucking pitiful.

Every team in the world is going to do that in a press release.


Now they would be real cowards if they cut out his words from the video - they didn't.

https://www.torontofc.ca/video/postg...hi-may-20-2023

[jloome]

Every team in the world is going to do that in a press release.


Now they would be real cowards if they cut out his words from the video - they didn't.

https://www.torontofc.ca/video/postg...hi-may-20-2023

I disagree with this entirely and I've handled literally tens of thousands of press releases. There are a great many people in business to whom ethics matter. Altering someone's quotes to change their context is entirely unethical, whether legal or not, and always has been.

[jloome]

Oh boy, that’s dreadful. But like most TFC and MLS news these days it’s PR. Why would the club print controversial and bad stuff about itself? It has a product to sell and that product isn’t news.

Then you just don't use that guy's quotes. You don't deliberately mischaracterize them, that's an asinine move that assumes no one who sees the team "version" will see the larger context.

Don't put something out that reiterates what a corporate scumbag you are. THat's a bad idea in any context, but most particularly when it's ENTIRELY UNNECESSARY.

[JoesphNdo]

Yeah off hand I don't think I've ever seen a star player absolutely blast a manager after the game and then saw the team use parts of the statement out of context to make it seem like a positive interview

[jloome]

Yeah off hand I don't think I've ever seen a star player absolutely blast a manager after the game and then saw the team use parts of the statement out of context to make it seem like a positive interview

It's mental.

It's someone higher up saying "Spin this! I don't care how you do it, fix the message!" But the message is already out. You can't put the horse back in the barn. And taking this approach makes it look like they're only response is lousy spin control.

[ag futbol]

Then you just don't use that guy's quotes. You don't deliberately mischaracterize them, that's an asinine move that assumes no one who sees the team "version" will see the larger context.

Don't put something out that reiterates what a corporate scumbag you are. THat's a bad idea in any context, but most particularly when it's ENTIRELY UNNECESSARY.

Reminds me of this:

[ag futbol]

Btw, the idea that the Coach and GM should be allowed to do their work without suit/ownership meddling is not a bad one. Because whether it’s Manning or Joey or another person either totally without practical experience or many years from it, chances are they don’t know better than the people closer to the pitch and to the daily workings.

This is why you’re supposed to have a board (or advisors) with some individuals who can actually provide the necessary context for the sport. Wayne Embry has held this role with the raptors for years.

Suits aren’t entirely useless as we make them sound but they need people closer to the subject matter.

[OgtheDim]

Yeah off hand I don't think I've ever seen a star player absolutely blast a manager after the game and then saw the team use parts of the statement out of context to make it seem like a positive interview

Yeh, ok, I give you on that one.

They should have just not quoted him.

[Canary10]

Happens all the time in politics, which should be the barometer of ethics. 😂 Also in movie ads.

[jloome]

Yeh, ok, I give you on that one.

They should have just not quoted him.

To make it look that much worse, the league site did a story on it that used ALL his quotes, including more specifics about nobody knowing each other's movement.

https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/feder...ange-something

[Richard]

Tell me your work environment is toxic without telling me......

This club, MLSE, Leafs, Rogers, Bell, board are nuclear waste toxic level bad.

During Mo dark ages this never happened, at a proper club someone would get fired for that.

[ensco]

Tell me your work environment is toxic without telling me......

This club, MLSE, Leafs, Rogers, Bell, board are nuclear waste toxic level bad.

During Mo dark ages this never happened, at a proper club someone would get fired for that.

No, it was worse under Teachers. A lot worse. Teachers would not even act like they owned MLSE and Peddie ran amok.

Lots of Boards meddle, that's life.

[ag futbol]

No, it was worse under Teachers. A lot worse. Teachers would not even act like they owned MLSE and Peddie ran amok.

Lots of Boards meddle, that's life.

Yeah, I agree. Teachers was the worst sports ownership group.

I question if they stuck around long enough and continued to manage things as they did whether most people would have just given up on attending sporting events entirely. They went out of their way to make it expensive and unpleasant.

Bogers just seems to be aloof and too forgiving.

[Red CB Toronto]

No, it was worse under Teachers. A lot worse. Teachers would not even act like they owned MLSE and Peddie ran amok.

Lots of Boards meddle, that's life.

And how many boards have such a public profile as MLSE in terms of the business they run. Every move they make will be scrutinized in a way the five major banks would not even experience. This Apple deal could really change and likely already is , the path of how TFC is run and the amount spent on it as you and others have already mentioned.

The fact that MLSE still has not hired a President and CEO after all this time is really telling. I do wonder how this position is currently perceived within the executive sports and entertainment world, how attractive is it, considering what would be walking into?

[spe18]

Here's a segment of MLS' Extratime posted, appropriately titled "Lorenzo Insigne & Toronto FC: Is there a deeper problem?".

In short, the beginning mentioned:

- per source, Insigne does not want to work with BB
- speculation if Insigne actually travelled with the team to Austin, and didn't play
- further speculation there were fights/words exchanged before the game (with BB)

full clip:

https://www.mlssoccer.com/video/lore...deeper-problem

[Canary10]

Here's a segment of MLS' Extratime posted, appropriately titled "Lorenzo Insigne & Toronto FC: Is there a deeper problem?".

In short, the beginning mentioned:

- per source, Insigne does not want to work with BB
- speculation if Insigne actually travelled with the team to Austin, and didn't play
- further speculation there were fights/words exchanged before the game (with BB)

full clip:

https://www.mlssoccer.com/video/lore...deeper-problem

Oh good.

It’s a dangerous game for players to revolt openly on a manager. I wish they would just play and let the coach work itself out.

[ensco]

[ag futbol]

Here's a segment of MLS' Extratime posted, appropriately titled "Lorenzo Insigne & Toronto FC: Is there a deeper problem?".

In short, the beginning mentioned:

- per source, Insigne does not want to work with BB
- speculation if Insigne actually travelled with the team to Austin, and didn't play
- further speculation there were fights/words exchanged before the game (with BB)

full clip:

https://www.mlssoccer.com/video/lore...deeper-problem

Something has to be done here. There is no way all the interested parties can continue to work together.

You the agents and others working for the Italians will be turning the heat up on Manning Significantly. Really feels like the walls are closing in on El Presidente

[OgtheDim]

Sooooooooooo (assuming that spec has a grain of truth to it)

Any career MLS assistant worth considering out there?

[jloome]

I mean, shades at least, Elmo.

Footie Prime were of mixed opinion. I think Jimmy figures he'll be canned by next week. Craig sort of leaned towards it being the players' fault based on Bob's history, but that didn't really account for the fact he's had as many projects fail as succeed, or that different tactics work on different teams.

I'm not sure they have any other option. They can try to ride out the injuries if Bob convinces them the whole first team, healthy, can turn it around.

But we'd drawn six games before they all went down. The offensive problems didn't start when the injuries did, they were always there.

It may also be that if they look at this analytically, by really studying where the positional and "read" shortfalls are for the younger players, that the problem isn't the manager, but the field coaches under him. That's still his call, his responsibility. But just firing Bob might not solve that; even if they all went, too, we might then be throwing out a decent manager who just picked lousy staff.

But I'm just trying to play devil's advocate and be fair. I don't think that's the issue. I think his tactical approach, which is fairly singular in buildup style even when the formations differ, extends to how the players are trained to adopt it. If it's not working, whether it's the field coaching or not, it's still up to him to fix it before it becomes a problem.

I think a lot of questions need to be asked about multiple coaches, and departments. The admission that their former chief scout would only recommend players he already knew about, or who came from trusted sources, rather than just going out and scouting the appropriate leagues, is really damning about how silo'd and absent responsibility it has all been. As long as they were making lots of money, nobody gave a shit.

[jloome]

Sooooooooooo (assuming that spec has a grain of truth to it)

Any career MLS assistant worth considering out there?

Forrest figures Nick Dasovic has learned a lot at Vancouver and done great things with their youth players. That seems way too risky for me.

Maybe they should be applying the transfermarkt search a little more logically: search for managers who've accomplished the most with the least money.

I'll take a League Two manager if he can turn an average or cheap team into winners. Because our profile, due to the spending imbalance, is more similar to low-budget than high. After the starters. TAMs and DPs, we spend less than the rest of the league on our backups and kids. And it shows. They are less the "finished product" as a result.

So to my thinking, we either get a dead cert to succeed, like Tata, or we get a chronic overachiever. That's the route Celtic took with Postecoglou and Brighton took with Potter (and as bad as we are, we're not Chelsea).

[ag futbol]

Forrest figures Nick Dasovic has learned a lot at Vancouver and done great things with their youth players. That seems way too risky for me.

Maybe they should be applying the transfermarkt search a little more logically: search for managers who've accomplished the most with the least money.

I'll take a League Two manager if he can turn an average or cheap team into winners. Because our profile, due to the spending imbalance, is more similar to low-budget than high. After the starters. TAMs and DPs, we spend less than the rest of the league on our backups and kids. And it shows. They are less the "finished product" as a result.

So to my thinking, we either get a dead cert to succeed, like Tata, or we get a chronic overachiever. That's the route Celtic took with Postecoglou and Brighton took with Potter (and as bad as we are, we're not Chelsea).

Makes sense to me. I like the Tata idea even if he does 2 years and carpet bags it or the next town. Hard to picture him failing.

Something has to give this club a shot in the arm and since we have no resources for transfers this might have to be it

[OgtheDim]

Forrest figures Nick Dasovic has learned a lot at Vancouver and done great things with their youth players. That seems way too risky for me. .....

Not sure Forrest has the awareness that he has become that "I know a guy" guy.


The reason I was looking at long term MLS assistants is there are recent examples of such assistants achieving MLS success through innovation....including Vanney.

[jloome]

Not sure Forrest has the awareness that he has become that "I know a guy" guy.


The reason I was looking at long term MLS assistants is there are recent examples of such assistants achieving MLS success through innovation....including Vanney.

And Nancy. He was assistant to Henry the year before taking over.

They both also came from outside MLS' internal Bruce/Bob clique, and neither ever thought of adopting a singular system, ala Marsch and Curtin.

If we can get someone like that, great. I don't know MLS assistants well enough to judge.

It's also very difficult getting someone from within your own ecosystem and really know what you're getting. Pineda was long stated to be the best assistant in the league, as was Fraser before him (even though he'd already had a head coaching try at Chivas). Neither has been especially impressive in charge. Meanwhile, Cherundolo had the worst record in USL before LAFC hired him.

So much here is done on a "who you know" basis. Almost everything as far as I can tell from talking to someone who works at TFC. It's just too incestuous not to end out promoting the wrong guys because they seem like good guys, and not due to a track record.

But the money in this league now is insane. That shit is going to disappear pretty quickly in the next decade, I imagine.

[Oldtimer]

If Insigne really doesn't want to work with BB (and this isn't a new rumour), Manning is faced with a choice to either sell his expensive Italian at a huge loss or ditch his coach. Either way the MLSE board will not be amused and that could possibly end Manning's tenure as well if he sells Insigne at a loss.

I fully expect the bus to drive over BB. This is a results-based business and it's easier to justify ditching BB.

[ensco]

Anybody understand which managers Andrea D’Amico represents?

[SenorDingDong]

Makes sense to me. I like the Tata idea even if he does 2 years and carpet bags it or the next town. Hard to picture him failing.

Something has to give this club a shot in the arm and since we have no resources for transfers this might have to be it

Honestly if you look at our contracts SJ is on 2 years, Insigne and Berna basically 2 years etc. We are expected to win NOW type of thing so even if a guy like Tata comes in for only 2 years that should be fine.

For the Insigne rumours I mean I don't doubt them. Berna basically said last night without saying it he doesn't agree with BB's plan.

I'm 99% sure Criscito didn't get along with BB either, there was a couple times last year you could see them arguing on the sides, then he mutually kills his contract and leaves.

But yea, its basically now at the point where MLSE needs to pick between Bob or the DP's.

[ag futbol]

Honestly if you look at our contracts SJ is on 2 years, Insigne and Berna basically 2 years etc. We are expected to win NOW type of thing so even if a guy like Tata comes in for only 2 years that should be fine.

For the Insigne rumours I mean I don't doubt them. Berna basically said last night without saying it he doesn't agree with BB's plan.

I'm 99% sure Criscito didn't get along with BB either, there was a couple times last year you could see them arguing on the sides, then he mutually kills his contract and leaves.

But yea, it’s basically now at the point where MLSE needs to pick between Bob or the DP's.

I totally agree. And it’s also why the BB aura of stoicism and framing this as a long term project is ridiculous. We signed many key players in their 30’s, our best players contracts come up in a few years, there’s no long term project here, this club is meant to win now.

[spe18]

But yea, its basically now at the point where MLSE needs to pick between Bob or the DP's.

In my view, the fact that Manning first chose the head coach/"sporting director", then brought in 2 DPs that appears to be incompatible with the coach goes to show you where the real problem is.........