Match Day 9 - TFC @ Philly Sat April 22 7:39 pm - You Don't Believe It

[OgtheDim]

So, I have only watched the highlight package… reading all this dire commentary on here, was this really the apocalypse, or was it maybe just a bad day at the office that should be forgotten, fast..?

This reminded me of our Charlotte game last year… except us in the role of Charlotte. Two kind of flukey goals early just completely deflated us, allowed the other guys to just be free, be comfortable.

All games turn on goals.

We were being pressed hard but coping. There was a 3 minute period once we got through their press where we applied pressure around the box but didn't get a shot off. However, we played into the strength of their press by continually trying to recycle the ball backwards once to find a space to go forward. When you play the press, you have to move the ball forward continuously - you have to search for the outlet forwards - a pass back out creates more pressure. JMR & Servania were both bad at this in particular which led to a lot of turnovers on our left side.

That and, McNaughton in particular, could not handle their vertical attack speed - Philly get the ball and launch it forward, at pace.

The first goal was a joke - who knows what would have happened if that hadn't gone in. If Philly doesn't score, they tend to stop pressing around the 30th minute - that's where we needed to get to and didn't. If we could have gone in down 1-0...would have been a different game.

The second goal was typical Philly chaos and I blame that on nobody at the back beyond Johnson being a leader. T

The 3rd goal was watching a repeat of 2022, as was the 4th.

The second half was a glorified training match.


We need a DM - many of us have been saying this for years. Sometimes, MAK can be DM like when teamed with MB - that was Delgado's role. But without MB & given MB's lack of closing speed, we now need that DM to anchor in front of the defence.

I'd consider that as important as our need for a true Centre Forward.

Insigne was impossible to see until Philly gave the mids space to pass to him. Insigne is very good if you can get him the ball. Servania & JMR & Petretta couldn't do that.

[JosephFC]

All games turn on goals.

We were being pressed hard but coping. There was a 3 minute period once we got through their press where we applied pressure around the box but didn't get a shot off. However, we played into the strength of their press by continually trying to recycle the ball backwards once to find a space to go forward. When you play the press, you have to move the ball forward continuously - you have to search for the outlet forwards - a pass back out creates more pressure. JMR & Servania were both bad at this in particular which led to a lot of turnovers on our left side.

That and, McNaughton in particular, could not handle their vertical attack speed - Philly get the ball and launch it forward, at pace.

The first goal was a joke - who knows what would have happened if that hadn't gone in. If Philly doesn't score, they tend to stop pressing around the 30th minute - that's where we needed to get to and didn't. If we could have gone in down 1-0...would have been a different game.

The second goal was typical Philly chaos and I blame that on nobody at the back beyond Johnson being a leader. T

The 3rd goal was watching a repeat of 2022, as was the 4th.

The second half was a glorified training match.


We need a DM - many of us have been saying this for years. Sometimes, MAK can be DM like when teamed with MB - that was Delgado's role. But without MB & given MB's lack of closing speed, we now need that DM to anchor in front of the defence.

I'd consider that as important as our need for a true Centre Forward.

Insigne was impossible to see until Philly gave the mids space to pass to him. Insigne is very good if you can get him the ball. Servania & JMR & Petretta couldn't do that.

No mention of Mark-Anthony and Oso who has had a horrible start to the season, I think in the long run we will regret the deal that was given Oso.

[OgtheDim]

I would note this sort of thing happens to every team - team knows what it needs to do when going to another team's park and doesn't do it.

The response next week is important. I said already that I expect a win next week - NYC is doing well...at home. But they can't play their style away from home and we should be in with a shout to play our game.

But if there is no response...then we got issues.

Watch the Oso video - he's asked about the room & takes time to talk about it. There isn't a problem in the room with people not knowing what they need to do but there continues to be this "we can't figure it out" mentality when the team isn't allowed to play the way they want to play. Jloome has called this arrogance - I call it tunnel vision. "If we can't play our way, we are stumped" I know every team sort of does this but there comes a time when you just have to figure out how to win.

[MikeForbes]

Ayo not seeing the field in a game where we need goals is pretty damning and shows that Bob could very well be losing patience with him.

[jloome]

^OK thanks.

It didn’t look good on the highlights either…

Og's right, we're just trying to stick round pegs in square holes.

I watch this exact same offense work for LAFC.... most of the time. When it doesn't, like their draw yesterday, they look a lot like us.

The thing is, they have tough, quick players.

We have soft, slow technicians.

We were actually better yesterday when we stuck younger players in who were just doing what they were told, not attempting to run into space constantly, or do something on the ball, just progress it. Look for the best advanced option and pass to them. Pass, move, pass, move.

But we don't move as a team, and we don't move the ball as a team.

Our players get into tight spaces and instead of advancing to the next runner, or switching field -- or even knowing where the pass is supposed to go before the ball reaches them -- they panic.

They either pass backwards, losing field position to pressuring defense, or they back up the defender in a hold-up position then attempt to turn and run. I can't count how many times we got stripped yesterday by Oso and Kaye trying to turn against two defenders.

Nobody in our midfield plays with grit, no one gets stuck in on tackles, no one even seems able to prepare for their next pass before the ball arrives (other than Coelho, who seems to instictively look for the next pass before it gets there. Didn't help him yesterday as his passing wasn't so hot).

Everyone wants to run with the ball.

We just seem unable to cope with speed and pressure. I said "arrogant" before and I still think it's arrogant. It's like our players think they're all Messi.

The way Bob is setting us up plays into and exacerbates this problem. We're too vertical and too sloppy with our short play. Even when we advance the ball, it's only a few feet at a time to a passing runner, and we're too backward and slow when under pressure.

We don't use enough of the pitch and we rarely switch field. We should be using the switch to break the press, have established positional and pattern play to do so that fits with our other tactics. WE don't.

It looks similar, again, to the problem Jesse Marsch had at Leeds, where he kept insisting they play "narrow" and vertical, and as a result, every time they set up in the opponents end, they face a low block of their own design.

WIth us, we constrain everyone to this short "pass and move" rotational system, and we only use a tiny, very congested area of the pitch to transition as a result.

And we just don't have the quickness most of the time to pull it off. And that's despite the team usually passing around an 80% clip.

Yesterday, we had more than 500 passes, an 80% pass rate and we had about 60% of the possession. None of that mattered dick diddly.

In the second half, when they weren't really pressuring as much, we spread the play more and used both sides of the pitch. We had outlets to wide players. Even after Philly resumed pressing, after our goal, we were still in it. Of course, had they cared nearly as much maybe we wouldn't have been.

It's the tactic. It works in LA because they're tough, they pass accurately and they're quick.

We're not, we don't and we aren't.

We have lots of skill. We do not have lots of speed or strength. We are a macrocosm of Oso, basically: rather than flattering to deceive, we deceive to flatter. We have an occasional brilliant stretch or game, but most of the time our players aren't up to playing both ways, quickly enough or accurately enough.

At a team Bob could build from scratch, they had 57 points in LAFC's first season, playing with this exact set of tactics.

But this is not a team he has built from scratch, and he is clearly not adapting enough to make up for that.

Oso has been terrible this season; as in, he should sit for a game and get some perspective on the speed things are actually moving at, and stop holding onto the ball for so goddamned long.

Mark-Anthony Kaye had the same problem yesterday. He had a couple of good interceptions and was doing okay early on compared to the others, but then fell apart by continually holding the ball too long or passing backwards, even though Philly was eating up that ground with sprinting.

Servania looks like a decent young player but probably not a starter at a good team. He's in and out of games, he runs a lot.

We missed Michael yesterday, but I don't think it would've made much difference. When speed, or lack thereof, is a big part of the issue, having another slow midfielder -- even one good in traffic -- probably wasn't going to help.

I think at the right team -- one he has built from scratch -- Bob is probably worth his weight in his awards and resume. But he is a system coach, not an adapter, and his system does not fit our roster.

If I'm Manning -- and people who get him better than I do seem sure he won't do this, but anyway -- I would be on the phone today with Tata Martino's agent.

He wants to come back to MLS and is presently unemployed. He is one of the winningest managers in world football history, literally. He has a better-than-50% win rate at teams across Spain, South America and MLS, which is unheard of among managers.

And he is an ADAPTER. He works with what he has to make the team better. We all saw what he did in two years at Atlanta.

[JoesphNdo]

Said it elsewhere but sadly id be shocked if Tata doesn't goto Miami for a whole load of reasons. In fact id be shocked if they weren't negotiating and closing on that as we speak

If he's available, absolutely to get him but I'm doubtful we'd be in the running

[ensco]

I always thought this was curious - and wondered who the audience for this really was…

Check out this tweet at [URL]https://twitter.com/felipecar/status/1596141485967249408?s=61&t=m37cT46Agnuvoekh9VGF_w[/URL]

[Smokecell]

At the moment Oso has to be competing with Rigioni in Austin for the worst DP spend in MLS.

I know he had a knock coming into the season so I thought that was the reason for his lack of fitness, but we are 9 games in and he looks out of shape and tracks back at a leisurely pace. It’s not a good look. In fact, I think a lot of what Kilbane said about Bradley losing a step applies to Osorio as well.

[Ultra & Proud]

Ayo not seeing the field in a game where we need goals is pretty damning and shows that Bob could very well be losing patience with him.

Unless there's a trade in the works before Monday. That's what I figured.

[jloome]

At the moment Oso has to be competing with Rigioni in Austin for the worst DP spend in MLS.

I know he had a knock coming into the season so I thought that was the reason for his lack of fitness, but we are 9 games in and he looks out of shape and tracks back at a leisurely pace. It’s not a good look. In fact, I think a lot of what Kilbane said about Bradley losing a step applies to Osorio as well.

I just feel he's trying to do too much when he's on the ball, and he's not tough enough defensively when he's off it.

He can't play shoulder-to-shoulder anymore; he doesn't even go into those sort of challenges the way he used to. If I had to guess, the head injury has left him with some subconscious doubt about how "hard" he can go into things.

He's killing us in transition by never receiving the ball on the roll and finding the next man upfield, always trying to control, turn and run into space, as if he needs to single-handedly eat up yards, which isn't good.

[Joe Kool]

I thought we were in trouble from the moment they showed the starting lineup with Rutty on the LW and Insigne in the middle. Playing players out of position is always a problem. Rutty was invisible and there was a big difference when Insigne finally was put in his proper position. We are lucky Philly took their foot off the pedal in the 2nd half. They cut through us at will. We looked like an unorganized team with guys scrambling everywhere. Horrible game.

[Kamp Berg]

I thought we were in trouble from the moment they showed the starting lineup with Rutty on the LW and Insigne in the middle. Playing players out of position is always a problem. Rutty was invisible and there was a big difference when Insigne finally was put in his proper position. We are lucky Philly took their foot off the pedal in the 2nd half. They cut through us at will. We looked like an unorganized team with guys scrambling everywhere. Horrible game.

Yeah, I thought the strangest past was subbing Thompson into Insigne’s natural position. Why wouldn’t Thompson go into the central midfield when coming on and move JMR back to the wing? Isn’t Thompson’s natural position CM?

[Areathrasher]

I always thought this was curious - and wondered who the audience for this really was…

Check out this tweet at [URL]https://twitter.com/felipecar/status/1596141485967249408?s=61&t=m37cT46Agnuvoekh9VGF_w[/URL]

The Athletic has an interview with him last week. Said he turned down the Boca job as he didn't want the pressure after the Mexico gig. Could see here being appealing to him given those comments

[OgtheDim]

For what its worth,

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/OptaJack/status/1650595968805654529

[reggie]

For what its worth,

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/OptaJack/status/1650595968805654529

i hope manning didnt see this he may give him a DP contract

[los sonadores]

Doyle’s take:

The Union, meanwhile, are still alive in CCL playing and harboring continental dreams, and put forward the type of performance you’d want to have in the days before a semifinal showdown against still-unbeaten LAFC. This one was a laugher, and TFC ‘keeper Sean Johnson gave us our Face of the Week:

Philly dominated in central midfield, creating turnovers that then sprung center forward Mikael Uhre into space again and again and again. Add in a truly hilarious own goal, and that’s how you get four.

TFC were spared some blushes by one banger from Lorenzo Insigne and another from Richie Laryea, but this team’s roster build approach of spending damn near everything on the top of the roster and damn near nothing on depth is starting to look like a very, very bad plan. And it’s being exacerbated by a weird inability to develop the talent on hand, which is the thing, I would argue, Bob Bradley’s been best at over the course of his career.

We’re talking all-time greats like Carlos Bocanegra, DaMarcus Beasley, Ante Razov, Rico Clark, young Michael Bradley, Mike Magee, Eddie Gaven, Sacha Kljestan, Brad Guzan, Eddie Atuesta, Diego Rossi… everywhere Bradley’s been, both in MLS and overseas – even Chivas USA! – he’s taken young players and made them better.

That’s not happened with any of the kids in Toronto. It absolutely needs to or this team is not going to make the playoffs.

[Initial B]

I read that and it just makes me wonder whether that's Bob's fault, or it's just that our Academy coaches just suck at developing players from the GTA, or is it that the grassroots clubs are still hoarding their best players and telling them to go straight to Europe than spend time in TFCA.

[jloome]

Doyle’s take:

The Union, meanwhile, are still alive in CCL playing and harboring continental dreams, and put forward the type of performance you’d want to have in the days before a semifinal showdown against still-unbeaten LAFC. This one was a laugher, and TFC ‘keeper Sean Johnson gave us our Face of the Week:

Philly dominated in central midfield, creating turnovers that then sprung center forward Mikael Uhre into space again and again and again. Add in a truly hilarious own goal, and that’s how you get four.

TFC were spared some blushes by one banger from Lorenzo Insigne and another from Richie Laryea, but this team’s roster build approach of spending damn near everything on the top of the roster and damn near nothing on depth is starting to look like a very, very bad plan. And it’s being exacerbated by a weird inability to develop the talent on hand, which is the thing, I would argue, Bob Bradley’s been best at over the course of his career.

We’re talking all-time greats like Carlos Bocanegra, DaMarcus Beasley, Ante Razov, Rico Clark, young Michael Bradley, Mike Magee, Eddie Gaven, Sacha Kljestan, Brad Guzan, Eddie Atuesta, Diego Rossi… everywhere Bradley’s been, both in MLS and overseas – even Chivas USA! – he’s taken young players and made them better.

That’s not happened with any of the kids in Toronto. It absolutely needs to or this team is not going to make the playoffs.

1) all but atuesta on that list are more than a decade ago.
2) He's not a field coach here. Maybe he used to do that more.

Maybe one of the problems is he's running a much bigger set of responsibilities at a bigger company, and his assistants aren't getting the job done.

Did players get dramatically better under Stalteri at York? I have no idea.

[613reppingTFC]

1) all but atuesta on that list are more than a decade ago.
2) He's not a field coach here. Maybe he used to do that more.

Maybe one of the problems is he's running a much bigger set of responsibilities at a bigger company, and his assistants aren't getting the job done.

Did players get dramatically better under Stalteri at York? I have no idea.

Wouldn't Rossi also count as he went to LAFC when he was 20, same age as Atuesta when he went to LAFC. Quite possibly they were developed before they even arrived there and Bob just found them at a good time.
But i get what you're saying, he might not carry out the same responsibilities that he did all those years ago. It's true, maybe the youth don't see TFCA as a place to develop and just a roadblock to getting over to Europe so we are left with what you could say is 2nd best and trying to develop those kids?

[ag futbol]

I am critical of Bob for a lot of things but I give him pretty well full marks for how he’s treated the academy kids. He’s played them all more than anyone else would (the amount of minutes handed out last year was huge).

The academy staff just can’t produce an MLS ready player to save their lives. It’s like we have to teach what being a pro means to these kids once they reach the first team.

[Ultra & Proud]

I am critical of Bob for a lot of things but I give him pretty well full marks for how he’s treated the academy kids. He’s played them all more than anyone else would (the amount of minutes handed out last year was huge).

The academy staff just can’t produce an MLS ready player to save their lives. It’s like we have to teach what being a pro means to these kids once they reach the first team.

Nobody can say he doesn't give them a chance. If he shuffles them off to oblivion then they probably earned it. I was hoping with Bob here they would overhaul the academy but it seems the same. The first team is like the final stage of the academy for these kids and then they either sink or swim, usually sink.

[Ultra & Proud]

Did players get dramatically better under Stalteri at York? I have no idea.

Didn't they just get worse & worse year to year so far in their existence?

Going to say our first team assistants aren't that great either. One of the reasons I kind of wanted Tata here is because he'd probably clean house and bring in all his crew to run things. Maybe keep a couple back roomers or whatnot around to translate if any of them speak Spanish.

[jloome]

The mentality still just seems off with a lot of Canadian players. I'm not sure why that is. Elitism and a sense of privilege are big in the U.S., too, because they've had the academy system as their primary feeder for years.

Maybe they're just a little ahead of us in getting them to toughen up and have humility about their current abilities. Not their potential, their present.

We seem to either get players like Ralph and Jordan, neither of whom could be accused of lacking confidence, or guys who just seem deer-in-the-headlights. Worse, we often draft players like that.

And others, we somehow get wrong anyway. Griffin Dorsey, whom I believe we gave one game, has 32 starts in Houston last season and this. Granted, it's Houston. But we don't have depth. We let him go, we let Lovitz go, we let a lot of decent young players go.

So it's not that we never get the talent to work with. Maybe it's just that before Bez they were laissez-faire crooked and incompetent, and since then, they've just been the latter. We have NOT had good training. It seems apparent.

[OgtheDim]

Doyle is a content creator

If TFC isn't doing well, what's the reason is something he has to discuss

As a guy who loves the "play the kids" story lines, not surprised Doyle reached for that.


BB's been here 18 months.

Last year, most of the kids played, not his ones brought in, were given a good trial & failed - 1 transferred out to Europe (Nelson), 3 kept that are playing periodically (JMR & Kerr & Peruzza) - rest hanging around

Who this year is a kid who got worse that Doyle can point to?


Nah, Doyle is reaching for stuff here

[FootBallAZ]

this is becoming a joke- my account rep said give it this year- new guys will be added, performance will be better than the two previous years, you will see why the 40% increase and increase in beer will be justified.

Ive never been so turned off to watch TFC - and its heartbreaking.