TFC 2023 player in-season roster discussion

[Hala Hrvatska]

I'm completely with Ultra & Proud. I want a FULL reset. This garbage has been sitting out in the hot sun for far too long.

I went on whoscored.com to check out some player ratings as some have suggested we shouldn't have disposed of certain talent. This year, there isn't a team that's head and shoulders above anyone else, but I would suggest we would want to achieve a minimum rating of 6.65 for any starter calibur player. Ideally we would be striving for a 6.7+ rating in order to be among the teams that are performing in the top half and really capable of competing for the cup. As some comparisons to ground all this in, TFC 2017 had a 6.86 rating; that monster 2019 LAFC year they were 7.00 and Philly in 2022 were 6.89.

So how are we doing right now? 6.59 which is surprisingly not too bad. Under Armas we were our worst ever with a 6.46 rating in 2021, and a 6.56 last year.

Top Players so far this season:
LI is our best. When he's on he actually helps this team unlike Berna who can't seem to realize that he has to use his teammates.

I looked up some of the kids we recently shipped out. Priso 6.14 (!!!); Shaffy (6.60 - ok but honestly he's 14th best on Nashville); Petrasso (6.18!!). Shaffy is definitely serviceable but based on the performances of the other two, I can't see them sticking in MLS much longer.

As for Toronto's youth, Kobi Franklin is our best performer so far this season at 6.66. Other than Kerr at 6.52, all of our youth are under 6.5 rating. Our most highly prophesized youth, JMR (6.36) and Akinola (6.04!!!) have been woeful. Maybe I'm being overly harsh but I'll bash the Academy system yet again. Of all the people I mentioned Franklin is the only one where I see a real desire and work ethic. Everyone else has moments but are so incredibly inconsistent.

The point of all this is to show how we CANNOT rely on our Academy as it has not delivered even serviceable MLSer's. There must be something in the mindset of the Academy or the youth coming through where they think they've made it if they're playing on TFC and they lack the desire and work ethic to actually become pro's.

Agreed and Toronto area produces players....albeit for other teams. How we continually miss them or don't develop the ones we sign is simply absolute gross negligence.

[Hala Hrvatska]

I just posted at length on this in the Manning Deathwatch thread.

I'm not sure people get how hands off he's been since 2018. The problem with Manning isn't that he's set anything up, it's that he's been completely absentee since signing Pozuelo.

He's worried about making them money, not football. That's the real problem.

He thought he could get away with/would benefit from letting Ali and Jack Dodd run football operations, and when that crapped out, turned to the league's favorite "legend."

I don't think he's had a role in any signings in years until Insigne. Bernardeschi was in concert with Bob, who clearly liked the idea of fixing another "enfant terrible", as he did with MAK coming from USL with the same rep (or thinks he did). He's the player whisperer, in his world view.

He deferred to people he respected and it cost him. That's not to say his own decisions would've been any better. I think it was probably just easier for him to let guys he knew and liked run their own show.

Having done this myself in management I have sympathy... within reason. I was a pretty shit manager.

The thing that bothered me about Manning's presser is he is taking credit for the start of his tenure which was not of his making..and now that we are missing the playoffs for the third time in a row, and is it 4 now out of last 5, despite always having the highest or near top payroll...he looks on it as talks about his "track record" and the freefall disaster its turned out to be he thinks doesn't mean he is doing a "bad" job. Anywhere else he'd be fired. Anywhere but here for some bizarre reason. His hirings have all been disasters.

And on BB, he got canned at LA and immediately the next year they win the whole damn thing. Swansea fired him after what 9 games or so? They saw immediatley he was not capable and fixed their mistake.

Manning let Bradley do what he want blindly.

And the whole allowing dad/son captain thing ANYONE in world football would see that would be a huge problem team wise..and create all kinds of issues....well, apart from Manning who aparently didn't forsee it.

He simply has to go. The damage is done. He does not get another chance to throw even more money to try and fix is mistakes.

[jloome]

Agreed and Toronto area produces players....albeit for other teams. How we continually miss them or don't develop the ones we sign is simply absolute gross negligence.

The Jacen Russel Rowe fiasco -- in which he went to college because we told him he wasn't good enough and then TURNED HIM DOWN AGAIN before he went to Columbus, because we had his homegrown rights, is just emblematic of the stupidity and incompetence throughout our dev system.

We also turned down Ali Johnston as "too small" at 14 and, when given a chance to sign a Canadian -- we've had multiple shots in the draft, including Buchanan, Sinclair and Bombito -- we picked American journeymen quality.

Lots of younger-but-developing players have had the misfortunate of landing here. We've missed most of them. We stupidly didn't protect Rahim, we let Lovitz go for nothing, we let Shaff and McNaughton go despite the obvious potential at least as role players for both.

It's pretty dreadful.

[Hala Hrvatska]

The Jacen Russel Rowe fiasco -- in which he went to college because we told him he wasn't good enough and then TURNED HIM DOWN AGAIN before he went to Columbus, because we had his homegrown rights, is just emblematic of the stupidity and incompetence throughout our dev system.

We also turned down Ali Johnston as "too small" at 14 and, when given a chance to sign a Canadian -- we've had multiple shots in the draft, including Buchanan, Sinclair and Bombito -- we picked American journeymen quality.

Lots of younger-but-developing players have had the misfortunate of landing here. We've missed most of them. We stupidly didn't protect Rahim, we let Lovitz go for nothing, we let Shaff and McNaughton go despite the obvious potential at least as role players for both.

It's pretty dreadful.

100%.

Russel even came here and scored a pair against us.

Johnston turned into a NT'er and to Celtic...but not good enough to be here over whatever we have at RB? Unbelievable...

Buchanon a baller..and we don't notice him...he comes back here and scores a golazzo (what else could one expect?) in our stadium...and ends up playing CL football and the WC....but again, not good enough for us.

Bombito...etc...

Its been one miss after another.

And don't forget thinking JMP would be picked up by some Euro power team....we ruined him too....

[jloome]

The thing that bothered me about Manning's presser is he is taking credit for the start of his tenure which was not of his making..and now that we are missing the playoffs for the third time in a row, and is it 4 now out of last 5, despite always having the highest or near top payroll...he looks on it as talks about his "track record" and the freefall disaster its turned out to be he thinks doesn't mean he is doing a "bad" job. Anywhere else he'd be fired. Anywhere but here for some bizarre reason. His hirings have all been disasters.

And on BB, he got canned at LA and immediately the next year they win the whole damn thing. Swansea fired him after what 9 games or so? They saw immediatley he was not capable and fixed their mistake.

Manning let Bradley do what he want blindly.

And the whole allowing dad/son captain thing ANYONE in world football would see that would be a huge problem team wise..and create all kinds of issues....well, apart from Manning who aparently didn't forsee it.

He simply has to go. The damage is done. He does not get another chance to throw even more money to try and fix is mistakes.

Yeah, I'd say he's pretty liberal with his view of past successes. He walked into the RSL job months before a surprise title win. I suspect he let the success of signing Pozuelo, his one real triumph, get to his head and the "wait a minute... the rest of this was here waiting for me" part eluded him.

As for Bradley, I wouldn't say blind. He won the supporter's shield in their first year.

What Manning didn't do was the next step of due diligence, which is to ask why some of these guys who win the league can't motivate their teams through the brutal pressure of a playoff bracket or in the big game. Bradley had previously failed on the last day at Le Havre and with the Egypt squad. Yeah, he stayed there through the uprising...and they got blown out in their final world cup qualifier. Equally, Le Havre crumbled in the last few games of the season and missed promotion.

Also, no one considered why, in the Bradleys case, they had such pervasive opposition from some veteran league types (they are not well liked personally because of how serious and unrelenting they both are). It should have perhaps tipped him that there were potential problems with any roster fit issues. And why, when faced with rosters he didn't build himself at Swansea, Chivas and Le Havre, he was not ultimately successful.

As much as people love Jim Curtin and loved Jesse Marsch at NY, both are straight-up Bradley disciples from his Chicago Fire days, and neither has managed to actually win a title in a decade (other than Salzburg, which I don't count; they had a league dominant lineup including Haaland and still fans felt Marsch underperformed with them).

[FiveThreeTwo]

To add to the conversation, the most frustrating thing in my eyes around neglect and ignorance, is the entire academy and development existence.

It feels like there hasn’t been a single fucks given (pardon my French) on any academy or pipeline stuff since Winter/Deklerk made it a pillar in the operations and was a focal part of their rollout to a Dutch football (success or not).

There’s no immediate revenues tied to the expenses like the first team in terms of corporate planning, but that means there’s also no limelight, and the cost to shift and transform the outfit is also fairly low, and can be done literally any time. Right now mid season, or off season. Has no relation to first team.

At any time (since winter), this club like other folks here have mentioned could have went and sought out the best; Dutch, Spanish, French, German, South American - pick your style - young eager technical youth coach/managers that are looking to break out of an Ajax or Benfica or river plate and start up their own development project. There would be 0 media and fan driven immediate risks to overhauling the academy with strong talented technical people as a side investment while we elected to spend on dumb DPs. Legit the academy since winter and deklerk looks more like a facade to look like we’re a well rounded club, then a club that has it apart of their pillars. It’s a joke how it seems it’s completely been abandoned and low prioritized, when all the infrastructure is already there. Or am I missing something? Lol

[Bobo]

If it's Al Nassr coming for Insigne, expect ugliness. Quickly developing a bad reputation. They changed their offer to Inter for Brozovic at the 11th hour after everything was already agreed and then pulled out of Ziyech talks claiming a failed medical, which the player is refuting.

In general, don't expect much in transfer fees from Saudi clubs unless PIF has a direct hand in the selling club.

I wouldn't mind keeping Insigne, to be honest. Still rate him highly. But seems that ship is sailing, which is also fine. History will show I never liked Berna. Clown.

[A Stick]

To add to the conversation, the most frustrating thing in my eyes around neglect and ignorance, is the entire academy and development existence.

It feels like there hasn’t been a single fucks given (pardon my French) on any academy or pipeline stuff since Winter/Deklerk made it a pillar in the operations and was a focal part of their rollout to a Dutch football (success or not).

There’s no immediate revenues tied to the expenses like the first team in terms of corporate planning, but that means there’s also no limelight, and the cost to shift and transform the outfit is also fairly low, and can be done literally any time. Right now mid season, or off season. Has no relation to first team.

At any time (since winter), this club like other folks here have mentioned could have went and sought out the best; Dutch, Spanish, French, German, South American - pick your style - young eager technical youth coach/managers that are looking to break out of an Ajax or Benfica or river plate and start up their own development project. There would be 0 media and fan driven immediate risks to overhauling the academy with strong talented technical people as a side investment while we elected to spend on dumb DPs. Legit the academy since winter and deklerk looks more like a facade to look like we’re a well rounded club, then a club that has it apart of their pillars. It’s a joke how it seems it’s completely been abandoned and low prioritized, when all the infrastructure is already there. Or am I missing something? Lol

Nope! Bingo! I have never heard the media guys who cover this team write an article or questioned Manning/Bradley or whoever about the fact that they have not produce one clear decent player from the TFC academy.

[Ultra & Proud]

If it's Al Nassr coming for Insigne, expect ugliness. Quickly developing a bad reputation. They changed their offer to Inter for Brozovic at the 11th hour after everything was already agreed and then pulled out of Ziyech talks claiming a failed medical, which the player is refuting.

In general, don't expect much in transfer fees from Saudi clubs unless PIF has a direct hand in the selling club.

If they offered anything I would take it. Hopefully a few million just for the allocation conversion.

[JoesphNdo]

If we're offered 0 we should take it, we're dreaming with a transfer fee. Insigne is stepping up his game and looks to be becoming the player we thought, but that contract is absurd and we're not getting a return on it. If we have a chance to offload one or both Italian and can offload their entire contracts personally I'd do it to kick start the rebuild process. I'd obviously much rather it be Bernie, but Insigines contract is huge and, at best, he's at a 'will probably be really good but no guarantees' level right now.

However I plain do not believe we will have a chance to offload either contract so it doesn't matter either way

[Ultra & Proud]

The Jacen Russel Rowe fiasco -- in which he went to college because we told him he wasn't good enough and then TURNED HIM DOWN AGAIN before he went to Columbus, because we had his homegrown rights, is just emblematic of the stupidity and incompetence throughout our dev system.

We also turned down Ali Johnston as "too small" at 14 and, when given a chance to sign a Canadian -- we've had multiple shots in the draft, including Buchanan, Sinclair and Bombito -- we picked American journeymen quality.

Lots of younger-but-developing players have had the misfortunate of landing here. We've missed most of them. We stupidly didn't protect Rahim, we let Lovitz go for nothing, we let Shaff and McNaughton go despite the obvious potential at least as role players for both.

It's pretty dreadful.

I think you're missing the common denominator here; pesky Canadians were taking valuable roster spots that could be used on lesser quality, more expensive Americans.

[Mr. Inbetween]

FWIW, from an Italian local/Napoli 'quasi' media source; a nuanced clarification. Interesting, for myself, in that it makes the rumour a little more plausible/reasonable; having a sense of Lollo's character...

'Lorenzo Insigne has signed a mandate with the Caa Stellar agency exclusively to negotiate his eventual transfer to Saudi League. The former Napoli captain hasn't changed his agent: he will stay with Vincenzo Piscane, president of GEV Sport & Management.'

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/lucacerchione/status/1676516281116241921

[Mr. Inbetween]

So... Given that DCU are still having 'conversations', trying to negotiate an extension(?), with NFFC over Lewis O'Brien; similar to TFC with Richie Laryea? And that O'Brien indeed played in their 04JUL23 match; past the supposed 30JUN23 Loan Deadline! Does this mean that there is a possibility to fair chance Richie could still play for TFC in their last match before the LC break; depending on the CMNT GC QF result? Perhaps an opportunity for a proper send off if it is really good-bye?

[SenorDingDong]

FWIW, from an Italian local/Napoli 'quasi' media source; a nuanced clarification. Interesting, for myself, in that it makes the rumour a little more plausible/reasonable; having a sense of Lollo's character...

'Lorenzo Insigne has signed a mandate with the Caa Stellar agency exclusively to negotiate his eventual transfer to Saudi League. The former Napoli captain hasn't changed his agent: he will stay with Vincenzo Piscane, president of GEV Sport & Management.'

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/lucacerchione/status/1676516281116241921

Maybe after his time here he thinks he can get Saudis to pay up as well? He will only be 34ish so it's not impossible.

[Bobo]

Maybe after his time here he thinks he can get Saudis to pay up as well? He will only be 34ish so it's not impossible.

At this rate, a 34-year-old non-superstar coming off a few years in MLS feels like it might be below the Saudis in 2026. If Insigne wants the really stupid money, he might need to find a way there soon.

[ag futbol]

The Jacen Russel Rowe fiasco -- in which he went to college because we told him he wasn't good enough and then TURNED HIM DOWN AGAIN before he went to Columbus, because we had his homegrown rights, is just emblematic of the stupidity and incompetence throughout our dev system.

What was the quote I heard at the time about why they didn’t want him? “All he does is score goals”

Gee, how terrible.

[TFC/Everton]

If it's Al Nassr coming for Insigne, expect ugliness. Quickly developing a bad reputation. They changed their offer to Inter for Brozovic at the 11th hour after everything was already agreed and then pulled out of Ziyech talks claiming a failed medical, which the player is refuting.

In general, don't expect much in transfer fees from Saudi clubs unless PIF has a direct hand in the selling club.

I wouldn't mind keeping Insigne, to be honest. Still rate him highly. But seems that ship is sailing, which is also fine. History will show I never liked Berna. Clown.

Wait, dealing with the Saudis isn't like doing business in North America or Europe? I am shocked.

[Areathrasher]

Atlanta have to get rid of an U22 as they have 4. They are apparently loaning Franco Ibarra to another MLS side. That type of deal would make sense for TFC right now

[SenorDingDong]

At this rate, a 34-year-old non-superstar coming off a few years in MLS feels like it might be below the Saudis in 2026. If Insigne wants the really stupid money, he might need to find a way there soon.

He's got the good money staying here though and living in likely a better place for his family.

[Mr. Inbetween]

Atlanta have to get rid of an U22 as they have 4. They are apparently loaning Franco Ibarra to another MLS side. That type of deal would make sense for TFC right now

Interesting. Atlanta tried to make him an 8 but he is a 6. A background read...

https://www.thestriker.com/2023/06/0...niteds-new-era

[wopchop]

Follow-up...

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/idiffidatiTFC/status/1676511765058781185

To the Saudi Professional League seeming likely. Probably Al Nassr. Going to join Marcelo Brozovic and The Other.

Twellman still defending Bob to the end.

[leedsandTFC]

FWIW, from an Italian local/Napoli 'quasi' media source; a nuanced clarification. Interesting, for myself, in that it makes the rumour a little more plausible/reasonable; having a sense of Lollo's character...

'Lorenzo Insigne has signed a mandate with the Caa Stellar agency exclusively to negotiate his eventual transfer to Saudi League. The former Napoli captain hasn't changed his agent: he will stay with Vincenzo Piscane, president of GEV Sport & Management.'

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/lucacerchione/status/1676516281116241921

makes sense.

the timing (right before the MLS transfer window) makes me think something could be imminent.

also previously when he was linked to turkey, the club and insigne were very quick to come out and deny those rumours.

nothing of the sort this time.

[Bushmancan]

Here's my problem with this. Why LI? LI still can be an asset (and is), wish he could stay healthy. Unless I am wrong, the actual cap hit is the same as Bernie's.

So my question is, if we have agreed to get rid of one of the two and replace with a speedy and skilled striker. Who is better for the longer term. What we are paying for either of them should be able to get us a very good asset.

Who could we get for between $5 - $7MM a year? (Understood there maybe be a Transfer fee)

[Ultra & Proud]

Here's my problem with this. Why LI? LI still can be an asset (and is), wish he could stay healthy. Unless I am wrong, the actual cap hit is the same as Bernie's.

So my question is, if we have agreed to get rid of one of the two and replace with a speedy and skilled striker. Who is better for the longer term. What we are paying for either of them should be able to get us a very good asset.

Who could we get for between $5 - $7MM a year? (Understood there maybe be a Transfer fee)

We need players who can make things happen on their own and preferrably have game changing pace. Neither of these two DPs has either of those attributes and they don't fit here. Difficult to say who we could get but usually the best players in the league are guys nobody ever heard of before coming over (Mukhtar, Driussi, even Giovinco). We need to use real scouting and look to places that have this type of creative player without relying on Transfermrkt, connects, or passports.

[jloome]

Here's my problem with this. Why LI? LI still can be an asset (and is), wish he could stay healthy. Unless I am wrong, the actual cap hit is the same as Bernie's.

So my question is, if we have agreed to get rid of one of the two and replace with a speedy and skilled striker. Who is better for the longer term. What we are paying for either of them should be able to get us a very good asset.

Who could we get for between $5 - $7MM a year? (Understood there maybe be a Transfer fee)

I suspect LI because he's embarrassed playing here. He can't perform in an athletically aggressive league as well as he'd like, and the team around him does nothing to help. He probably doesn't want this to be part of his legacy.

As for why Saudi, I wouldn't be surprised if the club contacted folks over there about Benardeschi and got, "nooo... he's a problem child. But Insigne's interesting..."

[leedsandTFC]

Here's my problem with this. Why LI? LI still can be an asset (and is), wish he could stay healthy. Unless I am wrong, the actual cap hit is the same as Bernie's.

So my question is, if we have agreed to get rid of one of the two and replace with a speedy and skilled striker. Who is better for the longer term. What we are paying for either of them should be able to get us a very good asset.

Who could we get for between $5 - $7MM a year? (Understood there maybe be a Transfer fee)

the cap hit is the same as bernardeschi but the hit to the internal budget is 2X as much. a reason we don't have a 3rd DP is the entire DP budget is being taken by 2 guys.

[rydermike]

So... Given that DCU are still having 'conversations', trying to negotiate an extension(?), with NFFC over Lewis O'Brien; similar to TFC with Richie Laryea? And that O'Brien indeed played in their 04JUL23 match; past the supposed 30JUN23 Loan Deadline! Does this mean that there is a possibility to fair chance Richie could still play for TFC in their last match before the LC break; depending on the CMNT GC QF result? Perhaps an opportunity for a proper send off if it is really good-bye?

Apparently O'Brien's loan ends July 16, so that would explain why he played

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/SoccerInsider/status/1676986344910798849

[JoesphNdo]

the cap hit is the same as bernardeschi but the hit to the internal budget is 2X as much. a reason we don't have a 3rd DP is the entire DP budget is being taken by 2 guys.

Yep this is the equation effectively. Move insigne and get two high end DPs, or move Bernie and get one.

I also again don't see us having a chance of moving either, but Saudi is a wild card. It may be that we simply are able to move insignie and not Bernie

[Ultra & Proud]

Yep this is the equation effectively. Move insigne and get two high end DPs, or move Bernie and get one.

Or move both and get 5 or whatever they allow next year or 3 DPs & 3 U22s. This would be the fastest way to rebuild the roster with proper scouting and due diligence.

[leedsandTFC]

Yep this is the equation effectively. Move insigne and get two high end DPs, or move Bernie and get one.

I also again don't see us having a chance of moving either, but Saudi is a wild card. It may be that we simply are able to move insignie and not Bernie

if we move insigne we could get 2 poz level ($ wise) DPs, and money left over.