TFC 2023 player in-season roster discussion

[ensco]

I stopped listening to Forrest and Footy Prime long ago, didn’t enjoy the tone and didn’t find it particularly insightful on MLS.

One factor: I think the CMNT players from Forrest's generation are pretty bitter that none of them got a sniff at GM or coaching jobs with the Canadian MLS teams (unlike the USMNT guys of their era, a dozen of whom got real MLS opportunies). I think we saw this with Jason deVos too, when he did the games on TV.

Having said that, Forrest is probably excellent on the EPL, and I am sure can be right on MLS sometimes.

[burlington Red]

I stopped listening to Forrest and Footy Prime long ago, didn’t enjoy the tone and didn’t find it particularly insightful on MLS.

One factor: I think the CMNT players from Forrest's generation are pretty bitter that none of them got a sniff at GM or coaching jobs with the Canadian MLS teams (unlike the USMNT guys of their era, a dozen of whom got real MLS opportunies). I think we saw this with Jason deVos too, when he did the games on TV.

Having said that, Forrest is probably excellent on the EPL, and I am sure can be right on MLS sometimes.

yeah pretty much, but did Forrest play at the start of his international career with Bob Lenarduzzi, he may have, he was the president when Vancouver entered mls

[jloome]

From the CP story today:

"We spoke (Thursday) about going out and being professional,” said interim coach Terry Dunfield.
“I think it’s a fine balance,” he added. “When it’s difficult, it’s important to try to remain positive and show some of our best practices. But also to not hide from some of the permissiveness when things do become difficult. So we’re trying to find that sweet spot.”

There have been instances where the team has looked anything but professional.

Lorenzo Insigne, for one, has exhibited horrible body language at times. He has lost the ball and opted for a stationary show of frustration rather than chasing back to correct his error. Fellow Italian star Federico Bernardeschi has also chosen to conserve his energy, to put it politely, on occasion.

Canadian midfielder Jonathan Osorio downplayed the toll of such a challenging season, saying the players are fortunate to have the jobs they have.

“When things go bad is when you have to really show your character,” he said. “And, for me, you have to stay professional. It’s that simple.

“That doesn’t mean that you’re smiling every day and acting like things aren’t the way they are. Acting professional is just being there for your teammates and doing what’s asked of you on the pitch. And doing things off the pitch that you need to do to be ready. It’s not giving up on the team. Those things are what, I think, Terry is talking about. And for me those little things should not be hard.”

What is hard, he added, is to “stay strong mentally” in games when things keep going wrong.

“Which has been tough for this team this year,” said Osorio. “When we get a punch we find it very hard to recover from that.”

[barticusz]

Its not just the Italians


Did the Italians make Mabika give up?

Did the Italians make Coello not do basic defensive midfield stuff last night on that second goal?

Did the Italians make our goalie into a rebound prone dude?

Did the Italians make MB not jump for a header?

Did the Italians make Sapong worse then he was before this season - which wasn't good to begin with?

Did the Italians give Oso the yips and have him conistantly in the wrong spot as an AM?

Did the Italians make Petretta unreliable defensively?

Did the Italians make Rosted a nervous head swiviler?

Did the Italians make Blessing give up on his man last night for their 3rd goal?

Did the Italians make subs based on fumes and wishes?

Did the Italians force all our players to lose all hope when scored against?


I get you have this idea jloome - but the problem is WAAAAY deeper then hero ball.

We are crap beyond maybe...maybe...3 players - Ibarra, Kerr, Kosi.

Our current coach is way out of his depth


This is a badly constructed team being coached by a badly constructed coaching crew with a badly constructed academy underneath it.

RH & Herdman may not blow it all up in the offseason but...they can't have any sacred cows out there anymore.

This.

The Italians have been shit but they’re just a tiny fraction of the horrendous team/structure which has evolved since 2017.

[OgtheDim]

“Which has been tough for this team this year,” said Osorio. “When we get a punch we find it very hard to recover from that.”

This was an issue in 2015 as well.

i.e. Leadership via MB doesn't fix this - this year, he might have made it worse.

These guys do have Sports Pyschologists.


But the Italians and other newcomers to MLS might be so far out of their comfort zones tactically, they can't find their "strong" places. When you build mental strength on sticking to a system, and that system falls down or doesn't exist where you next go to, keeping mental strength is difficult to do.

This is one reason why I don't begrudge Insigne as much as others - I suspect he was told we would have a system he would slot into - never happened.

I am coming to the conclusion that Beckham set up Messi to deal with this much better - 3 year courtships can do that.

[Gringo Starr]

I’d be willing to bet we would be more competitive in a game where the Italians both sit at this point. Just as a fan I am so tired of watching the same individual efforts, the same moves week after week after week that just end up in lost possession and then the negative demeanour and lack of effort to win back the ball. I figure it has to be worse for some of the guys in the dressing room who are on a fraction of the wages, hear how shit they are just about everywhere they turn and have to actually play through this ground hog day week after week.

[leedsandTFC]

the italians and their failures are a big part of why we are so bad, although most the blame should be attributed to the front office for not getting players with the right profile for MLS.

not only are they eating up the entire DP budget, they seem to be actively harming our team.

genuinely enjoy watching us more without them playing. at least everyone tries to play as a team and everyone defends.

they need to go asap.

[OgtheDim]

Yeh, Themi ain't our LB next year either...

[jloome]

Yeh, Themi ain't our LB next year either...

Like when they played Thompson at RB, they're trying to shoe-horn players to move them up. Themi clearly a midfielder, to me. And he's a good young player but shouldn't be anywhere near the starting lineup.

THen again, that's true of almost every player on the team right now. Kerr is our most dangerous striker right now on evidence, and at a competitive team in this league, he would be the number 3 striker, ala Jacen Russel Rowe at Columbus.

[Prof]

No. Pos. Nation Player1 GK United States USA Sean Johnson 3 DF Canada CAN Cristián Gutiérrez 4 MF United States USA Michael Bradley (captain) 5 MF Argentina ARG Franco Ibarra (on loan from Atlanta United) 6 DF Zambia ZAM Aimé Mabika 7 DF Canada CAN Jahkeele Marshall-Rutty (HG) 8 MF Spain ESP Víctor Vázquez 9 FW United States USA C.J. Sapong 10 FW Italy ITA Federico Bernardeschi (DP) 11 MF Ghana GHA Latif Blessing 12 FW South Africa RSA Cassius Mailula 17 DF Norway NOR Sigurd Rosted 18 GK Trinidad and Tobago TRI Greg Ranjitsingh 19 DF Canada CAN Kobe Franklin (HG) 21 MF Canada CAN Jonathan Osorio (vice-captain; DP) 23 MF United States USA Brandon Servania 24 FW Italy ITA Lorenzo Insigne (DP) 25 FW Germany GER Prince Osei Owusu 27 DF United States USA Shane O'Neill 28 DF Italy ITA Raoul Petretta 29 FW Canada CAN Deandre Kerr (HG) 30 GK El Salvador SLV Tomás Romero 52 MF Spain ESP Alonso Coello 81 MF Canada CAN Themi Antonoglou (HG) 83 FW Canada CAN Hugo Mbongue (HG) 90 GK Canada CAN Luka Gavran 99 FW Norway NOR Adama Diomande

I count 10 players bolded and underlined that should stay, based primarily on work ethic and potential. The rest have shown they are either too old and have lost a step or just don't have what it takes to play at this level or as in Ibarra's case will probably return to home club. Time to clear house and rebuild if we can.

[NK Toronto]

You forgot to include Manning and Dunfield in the "who to release" category

[synkronized1]

I agree with this. As a SSH since 2009, a wholesale clean out is really the only way I’ll feel any kind of positivity going into next season. That, and Manning to be removed.

[SenorDingDong]

It's insane how bad this season has turned out. Their are teams with far less talent then us doing far better.

[MikeForbes]

Why are we keeping Gutierrez? He has played one game and been magically ill or injured the rest of the season.

[leedsandTFC]

No. Pos. Nation Player1 GK United States USA Sean Johnson 3 DF Canada CAN Cristián Gutiérrez 4 MF United States USA Michael Bradley (captain) 5 MF Argentina ARG Franco Ibarra (on loan from Atlanta United) 6 DF Zambia ZAM Aimé Mabika 7 DF Canada CAN Jahkeele Marshall-Rutty (HG) 8 MF Spain ESP Víctor Vázquez 9 FW United States USA C.J. Sapong 10 FW Italy ITA Federico Bernardeschi (DP) 11 MF Ghana GHA Latif Blessing 12 FW South Africa RSA Cassius Mailula 17 DF Norway NOR Sigurd Rosted 18 GK Trinidad and Tobago TRI Greg Ranjitsingh 19 DF Canada CAN Kobe Franklin (HG) 21 MF Canada CAN Jonathan Osorio (vice-captain; DP) 23 MF United States USA Brandon Servania 24 FW Italy ITA Lorenzo Insigne (DP) 25 FW Germany GER Prince Osei Owusu 27 DF United States USA Shane O'Neill 28 DF Italy ITA Raoul Petretta 29 FW Canada CAN Deandre Kerr (HG) 30 GK El Salvador SLV Tomás Romero 52 MF Spain ESP Alonso Coello 81 MF Canada CAN Themi Antonoglou (HG) 83 FW Canada CAN Hugo Mbongue (HG) 90 GK Canada CAN Luka Gavran 99 FW Norway NOR Adama Diomande

I count 10 players bolded and underlined that should stay, based primarily on work ethic and potential. The rest have shown they are either too old and have lost a step or just don't have what it takes to play at this level or as in Ibarra's case will probably return to home club. Time to clear house and rebuild if we can.

agree with all but guttierez

[jloome]

I don't know why Gutierrez would stay, having played 58 minutes total. Mabike? It'll take a hell of an effort to remove the stain of him quitting on a play.

Osorio had a terrible year but is capable of more in a decent team, and is a lifelong TFC player.

I'd put Romero on the expendable list. He's not a bad young keeper, but he's not a particularly good one, either. He's only had a handful of starts and has a serious gaffe in just about every one of them.

I'd be willing to part with Coello, not because he's a liability -- he's a good depth player at 23. But he doesn't have the athleticism to compete at the starting level in the long-term, I suspect. (I said the same thing about Osorio when he was young, though, so clearly I am not a trainer.)

Really, I don't think anyone should be safe. We need to rebuild, which might mean losing pieces we actually like. The fact that we want 80% of them gone is almost a distinct issue.

[ag futbol]

I agree with everyone’s take here but also believe we’re going to have to make lemonade from our lemons somehow. No way we can turnover that many players and find suitable replacements as quickly as we’d like.

[Joe Kool]

I agree with everyone’s take here but also believe we’re going to have to make lemonade from our lemons somehow. No way we can turnover that many players and find suitable replacements as quickly as we’d like.

Yeah for sure. We are not getting a total makeover right away I don't think either. But if we can do enough in the offseason maybe we can at least be competitive. Right now we are just tuning in to watch the weekly massacre. Hopefully the only way to go is up.

[FootBallAZ]

Yeah for sure. We are not getting a total makeover right away I don't think either. But if we can do enough in the offseason maybe we can at least be competitive. Right now we are just tuning in to watch the weekly massacre. Hopefully the only way to go is up.

unfortunately thats what we all thought would be the case after Armas and BOB LOL

[jloome]

Yeah for sure. We are not getting a total makeover right away I don't think either. But if we can do enough in the offseason maybe we can at least be competitive. Right now we are just tuning in to watch the weekly massacre. Hopefully the only way to go is up.

I look at how many international player are good enough for MLS, and free agency, and how teams like Montreal and Miami have turned bad rosters around quickly -- not just Messi, Miami has won three games in which he barely appeared or didn't play -- and I have to think we could be competitive next year if it's done right.

Competitive. Not strong, not world beating. Competitive.

But it depends on getting rid of Insigne, I imagine, as his deal is so rich it'll color whatever else they can do. For example, try offering a low initial bid on a third DP -- a striker, perhaps -- when the two others are being paid $15M and $6.25M respectively. Anyone we approach is going to ask for similar figures.

I actually think we can get Bernardeschi to be useful regularly in this league. He's got some of the same arrogance issues but seems more adaptive and more angry about losing than whiny about not getting what he wants.

Plus, if he doesn't come around, he's easier to move with two years left, and perhaps later in the year...

After moving Insigne, we need to move Petretta somehow, or get his deal mutually cancelled via a new agreement elsewhere. For what he offers, he's the most overpaid non-DP in the league.

He's a good technical player and he knows where he's supposed to be on the overlap (even if Insigne only rarely finds him). But he isn't a good enough athlete physically at this level.

Coello isn't quick but he can at least use some upper body strength to hold guys off while he finds space. But Petretta has mediocre acceleration and no strength. He's beaten in foot races by forwards, which is death in this league, and he's shouldered off the ball by a stiff breeze.

If we can't get rid of him we should repurpose him as wing depth. He's decent on the ball and in the right spot most of the time. Cut back on his deep-lying defensive responsibilities (as he also can't block a cross or shot to save his life) and he might be a serviceable winger in this league.

We need Michael to retire, because even though he has odd periods where he's still good (he was our only decent player in the first half yesterday) he has no legs, is not a defender. He's a number eight who aged into a number six, but was never really suited to it.

We're probably not keeping Ibarra and given his petulance both here AND in Atlanta, where he complained about being a six and was given a chance at eight but didn't do well, he's not ideal anyway. He looks a good player, but with attitude issues.

From my perspective, to be competitive we need at minimum:
2X CB (one a real line leader, the other competent to start)
1xRB (Kobe's a good prospect and needs playing time, but not starting weekly. He's not that consistent or rounded yet).
1X LB (A starter. We don't need a third, backup as a priority as Kobe can play both sides).
2XDM (A bonafide starter no. 6 and a backup, as we have no naturals, or two rotation starters).
1XLW (Ideally a DP-type like Almeda or Mukhtar, who can play wide or in the hole, with speed and the bag of tricks).
1XSTRIKER (A DP-level striker, someone in the Giakoumakis mold who has led other leagues in scoring (holland and scotland in his case) and is a dead cert to find and finish chances.

With that, we can probably use Owusu and Kerr as both second strikers or number two and three respectively, and Mailula can play as second striker, in the hole and wide right as well, so he's valuable if he can perform at this level.

We can salvage Osorio as a rotational player in both the hole and number eight; we can use Coello as a number eight, which given his relative lack of quickness but good feet/passing is likely his natural role.

The entire defense should be tossed, but they're serviceable as backups. O'Neill has had a really bad year, and wasn't great last year either, but he really does put in a shift. His problem seems to be the same as several of these guys, which is that they lose confidence easily.

I read about how he felt shattered after making a few mistakes in Europe and losing his shot there, and he really sounded defeated about having a backup/rotation role in Seattle. But he was GOOD In that role, so it's not a lack of talent. His heart and head just aren't in the game.

Rosted, according to Danish and Norwegian fans, has always been inconsistent. I think he's about 60% a starter in this league, but that's nowhere near close enough to the real deal, so he's a very expensive backup unless we can move him.

Mabike? I don't know. When he quit on that play, just letting his mark go straight to go, I've never felt more like a player should be cut out of sheer pride. But maybe there was something we didn't know, like a hammy tweak. He clearly has potential, but his decision making is slow and his choices iffy. When he's not weighing decisions and just goes in quickly, he's often very good, and he's surprising adept going forward. Again, if he stayed as a backup, fine, but if we can get something for him, better.

Of the kids, Koby's progressive passing improved so much over the last dozen games, even as we floundered, that I have to think he's close to being regular starter material. He's still a fullback, not a wingback, but he's getting better at going forward. Obviously, though, we could do better, so he's not ideal as a starter. We want someone with Richie speed, even if we can't get his ball skills.

Thompson I still think has potential but we'll probably sell him prematurely. He just needs a good environment for a while. Kerr is ideally our number three striker/right winger, but competent enough to be the number two.

Themi is skilled, quick but not fast, and good with the ball but not great. Also he's not strong. They had him initially set to be a left back, then they had him under Armas/Perez as being a defensive midfielder. He's clearly neither. He's either a number eight who needs muscle or a number 10 who needs to be a little faster. Like Oso when he was young, he needs to up his physical game.

Servania is trade bait. He's okay on the ball and hard working but his focus is abysmal and his decision making generally suspect. He's a good backup for several positions.

Gavran looks a keeper (boom boom!) and Romero doesn't, but is still young and can improve his decision making. He projects to me to be a Steve Clark-style reaction keeper more than a commanding presence.

Stefanovic makes quick, good decisions but looks too sleight to be ready. He's too young. Needs spot time or preferably, a loan somewhere better than NextPro.

Didn't see enough of the much-lauded Adam Pearlman, but league types thing he's a future international, so...

Jesus Batiz should at least start the season with TFC. He looks a real prospect at MLS level, as he has the requisite pace and guile. Whether his read/react and vision get up to speed remains to be seen.

Hugo Mbongue looked utterly lost at this level. He's accustomed to one-dimensional, amateur striker play in which he gets good service and mostly has to beat one defender. Against determined MLS defenses and a part of transition, he had no idea what he was doing. I mean, maybe he's a future star, but he needs a lot of work.

Faria barely had a cup of team and I know nothing about him except he scored six in Finland on his loan there last year in 20 games, and looks a decent future midfielder.

Of the veterans, we keep Johnson, as he's the only competent outfield player we currently have.

We can shed all or any (and for cap reasons, the more the merrier I suspect) Gutierrez, Mabika, Rosted, O'Neill,
Petretta, Bradley, Vasquez, Blessing (although he's a decent MLS utility player in a decent side, but nothing great), Sapong, Diomande, Akinola.

I imagine we'll be taking most offers, as there are always managers like Arena (MAK) or Rooney (Bono) who will believe they can salvage some value we couldn't see or make use of.

[SenorDingDong]

Rumours on reddit that Berna just sold his house in Toronto.

[leedsandTFC]

https://twitter.com/martyn_bailey/st...22489766486146

claim from a fairly well connected guy who works at sportsnet that insigne sat out 7 games in a huff after his brother wasn't allowed on a chartered flight.

someone in replies claims that the club did multiple scans and found no injury, yet he claimed he was.

this would explain him missing multiple games where he was pictured in full training all week with no issues reported.

[Ultra & Proud]

https://twitter.com/martyn_bailey/st...22489766486146

claim from a fairly well connected guy who works at sportsnet that insigne sat out 7 games in a huff after his brother wasn't allowed on a chartered flight.

someone in replies claims that the club did multiple scans and found no injury, yet he claimed he was.

this would explain him missing multiple games where he was pictured in full training all week with no issues reported.

I've never wanted players on our team out of here more than I do our current DPs, especially this shit one, more than I do now.

[SenorDingDong]

You know I think we all were suspicious of his injuries for a bit now. He seems to just play injured whenever he doesn't feel like playing.

Least Berna shows up every game.

[benito]

Lorenzo Insigne was involved in unsavoury scenes in the early hours of Sunday morning and was caught on camera showing the middle finger to a group of Toronto FC supporters during their MLS clash against Cincinnati.

https://football-italia.net/insigne-...toronto-clash/

[jloome]

Rumours on reddit that Berna just sold his house in Toronto.

He doesn't own a house. He rents a condo downtown.

[SenorDingDong]

He doesn't own a house. He rents a condo downtown.

Yea I got this from reddit and it was proven wrong / misleading. He used to rent the house that is now up for sale. He moved to a condo a bit ago.

[Richard]

The club should sue Insigne. A player refusing to play with no medical proof of injury should allow a club to terminate contract with no penalties.

Fuck you Insigne.

[OgtheDim]

Bailey took down that tweet.

[leedsandTFC]

Bailey took down that tweet.

probably not worth the hassle (or someone from the club had a word)