TFC 2023 player in-season roster discussion

[OgtheDim]

Anyone thinking TFC is a big club needs to rethink its whole history from day one.
2017 was a blip...the rest has been pretty much the same.

Funny thing is, I go to games for the event & the soccer....and because it is my team, in all its silly stupidness - if I only went for success, I'd rarely go.


I think TFC has the trappings of a Big club in terms of $ spent. Our training ground is very good. The $ put out around what the teams does - behind the scenes - is top spent & generally done well. BM has got that bit right. We have one of the larger stadiums in the league with crowds that are bigger then most & more knowledgeable about the game then any.

But, as you said, that's not what a big club means.

[OgtheDim]

That comment from him & now it spreading in MLS circles will cause a bigger black eye to TFC/MLSE than the Athletic article. No way to spin this like Bob did against that article. It's perception and it's out there for all to see now.

Make Ibarra captain.

Oh, this is an easy spin.


"Bob made us this bad - we are trying to fix it. This is one piece to help in that long process. We hope to persuade him to stay but if he doesn't, that's OK. He will have helped us change our culture." And, if the Italians go, there is going to be a BIGGG spin on a culture reset.

[ag futbol]

This Ibarra guy immediately becomes my favourite TFC player, because this story is so stunning that it has a chance to “cross over” and become a big general sports news story.

If it does blow up, it would catch the eye of MLSE Board members.

I mean, considering our press is completely silent so far, and I’m going to bet is willfully ignoring what is being printed, it would be up to the US press to throw egg at us (which would be great).

All black T-Shirt with Ibarra on the back. TFC legend.

[Bushmancan]

Oh, this is an easy spin.


"Bob made us this bad - we are trying to fix it. This is one piece to help in that long process. We hope to persuade him to stay but if he doesn't, that's OK. He will have helped us change our culture." And, if the Italians go, there is going to be a BIGGG spin on a culture reset.

I would agree with you if Bob was the only issue…. Its missing 3 playoffs in a row with one of the largest budgets, its Bob, its Curtis, its Ali, its the Jozy debacle, etc., etc,

Manning OUT.

btw…. I still think he is trying to pull another big one. I may be 100% wrong but LI is sitting right now, so he does not get injured, rather than i think he is still injured.

[leedsandTFC]

i mean the MLSE and Bill Manning's directive was to make TFC one of the biggest clubs in north america by the world cup in 2026.

the fact that he's instead turned us into potentially the most embarrassing clubs on the continent must be catching some attention (you'd hope)

[Bushmancan]

i mean the MLSE and Bill Manning's directive was to make TFC one of the biggest clubs in north america by the world cup in 2026.

the fact that he's instead turned us into potentially the most embarrassing clubs on the continent must be catching some attention (you'd hope)

Exactly this!

[Richard]

i mean the MLSE and Bill Manning's directive was to make TFC one of the biggest clubs in north america by the world cup in 2026.

the fact that he's instead turned us into potentially the most embarrassing clubs on the continent must be catching some attention (you'd hope)

I'm brining out this classic for everyone's viewing pleasure.

[Richard]

I mean, considering our press is completely silent so far, and I’m going to bet is willfully ignoring what is being printed, it would be up to the US press to throw egg at us (which would be great).

All black T-Shirt with Ibarra on the back. TFC legend.

The usual press covering TFC is spineless, just a PR mouthpiece for managment.

[ag futbol]

That comment from him & now it spreading in MLS circles will cause a bigger black eye to TFC/MLSE than the Athletic article. No way to spin this like Bob did against that article. It's perception and it's out there for all to see now.

Make Ibarra captain.

I get the impression Manning is a man with no friends at the moment. The league hates him for firing Bob. The fans hate him for the state of the team. He probably has a few clueless loyalists keeping him company internally and that’s about it.

[reggie]

I get the impression Manning is a man with no friends at the moment. The league hates him for firing Bob. The fans hate him for the state of the team. He probably has a few clueless loyalists keeping him company internally and that’s about it.

i think people would run to work for manning.work 1 yr and get paid for 4

[JoesphNdo]

The Athletic, like much of MLS, doesn't rate TFC because

a) we are in Canada and thus apart from Kloke, their reporters have no connection to the supporters up here - the usual handbrake on reporters contempt is supporter interaction - I note Kloke has the least connection to TFC supporters of any TFC journo

b) we spend a lot and a ton of MLS people can't stand that

c) these guys love to talk to their own insiders and none of them like how much we spend

d) they really hate bold / brash more then they hate incompetent - I would argue Chicago has been worse then us for over 20 years now but they get nothing like the stick we do

e) the Athletic soccer journos live by the "lovable kook" theme - with one exception - Kloke - as we don't get ANY lovable kook pieces, we are this unfeeling monster of a team only known for its mistakes


What Kloke SHOULD have been doing this last year was piece after piece on the Canadians playing on the 3 Canadian MLS teams. Instead, he covered the Leafs until that was done & then he was in on the big "they are all mad at each other" piece.

It's not a conspiracy, we're just a shit show. Any honest reporting on us will look like this. Our local reporting would look like this if they ever cared to pay any attention

Nobody hates us. That's not a thing imo

[OgtheDim]

It's not a conspiracy, we're just a shit show. Any honest reporting on us will look like this. Our local reporting would look like this if they ever cared to pay any attention

Nobody hates us. That's not a thing imo

Most of the league can't stand how much we spend & are VERY happy to laugh at us when we fail.

Hate? No.


I'll say it again.

Chicago is WAAAY worse in terms of how it runs its team and how it works with its community and how bad that team has been for a very very long time. Its in an NFL stadium with little support & can't figure out what it wants to be.


Nobody laughs at Chicago like they laugh at us.

[jloome]

Nobody hates us. That's not a thing imo

No, but there are pretty implicit biases in coverage of us on mlssoccer.com, and always have been. There is a small group of league-paid pseudo journalists, nearly all American, who have relished over the years taking shots at the Canadian clubs, particularly us.

When were winning, it was just because we bought a title through Giovinco. When we're losing, it's never "MLSE can't get it done," or "CoachXX is doing a shit job." It's always generically "TFC", the entire club.

Other cities get nuance in their coverage.

Then again, there are also several, like Dempsey and a few other broadcasters, who have reiterated that without TFC's fan culture shift driving the rest of the league towards bigger buy-in in 2007, there probably wouldn't have been a Seattle or LAFC.

So it's not like we're hated; it's just that American sports coverage, whenever it encounters what it sees as foreign weakness, is extremely eager to exploit it for cheap shots. It's just part of the brand. But when it's an American at fault -- Manning, Bob, etc -- that's rarely part of the conversation. That's why so much of that piece was slanted to make it about the Italians being petulant children -- which may be true, but they didn't hire themselves.

[FiveThreeTwo]

Snippets from that Cardenas article on the athletic (don't usually do this, and apologies if this is a cardinal sin here - I just wanted to add the context of the players reactions to this whole situation)

"On Wednesday evening at around 6:40 p.m., Ibarra received a phone call from Atlanta United technical director Carlos Bocanegra. A deal was close to being completed to loan Ibarra to another MLS club, Bocanegra told Ibarra. Toronto, Canada would be Ibarra’s new home. Shocked by the news, Ibarra initially refused to accept it.

“Carlos told me that he was going to close the deal that same night and that I had to go,” Ibarra said. “I told Carlos that he didn’t have to close that deal. That I wasn’t going to leave Atlanta. I’m not going to that team.”

According to Ibarra, Bocanegra agreed to discuss the matter with him on Thursday morning at 8:30. Ibarra arrived at the club at 7 a.m., like he always does. He put on his training gear and prepared to train, but was instructed to head home instead.

“I was told that I didn’t need to change because I was already a Toronto player. That Atlanta had closed the deal,” said Ibarra. “Carlos told me that he was really sorry. He said he needed to cut the roster down. I reiterated that I wouldn’t go to Toronto. It doesn’t benefit me at all from a football standpoint. It’s obvious where Toronto is at the moment versus Atlanta.”

He said he was told by Bocanegra that he is a player with “high value,” and that other MLS teams were interested in a loan deal. That did little to ease Ibarra’s frustration. He said that he felt disrespected by the way Atlanta United had handled the situation.

“I didn’t know when I had to leave for Toronto, where I’m going to live, what I’ll have to do with my visa. I was completely in the dark,” Ibarra said. “I told Carlos that I understood that there are rules. I get it, but I’m not going to Toronto. I’m hurt and it bothers me how you’ve done this and where you’re sending me,” Ibarra continued. “You can’t call me out of the blue to tell me that I have to move to another country. If you tell me a week ago that there’s a problem and that I no longer have a U-22 slot, that’s different. But instead I found out last night that (Bocanegra) had to get rid of one of the four U-22 players.”

[JoesphNdo]

Most of the league can't stand how much we spend & are VERY happy to laugh at us when we fail.

Hate? No.


I'll say it again.

Chicago is WAAAY worse in terms of how it runs its team and how it works with its community and how bad that team has been for a very very long time. Its in an NFL stadium with little support & can't figure out what it wants to be.


Nobody laughs at Chicago like they laugh at us.

I don't see it

Chicago just isn't an interesting story. Cheap as shit owners spend nothing and get nothing in return vs the leagues biggest spenders are an absolute catastrophe behind the scenes. There's no other way to report that and it's just inherently more interesting, naturally. Of course it is.

I also don't see us spending money causing haterid and firmly see the opposite. Even cheap owners love big spenders, it's all upside and no downside for them and the league tends to bend over backwards to support us big spenders. They get boosted crowds when the team shows up and an equal share of apple subs sold without having to spend anything to help sell them. They leech off us, they love it when we throw cash around. Why would they hate it?

I can see USA media giving us less coverage, but no conspiracy against us. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's just a duck. Media calling a fucking dumpster fire a fucking dumpster fire isn't anything more than doing their job. The job our media refuses to do.

Also keep in mind fans of every team think everyone - referees, media etc are biased against them. Real Madrid fans think that. It's human nature. We are not honest, cold assessers of this

Their reporting probably helped get Bob fired, also, so I love it. Expose the whole lot. I'd love a second expose going more after Manning and then we can all get a better team out of it

[Mr. Inbetween]

I think it's whole lotta bluster, petulance and naivete of a 22 year old, otherwise let's see if he has an Ibarra vs. MLS/FIFA 'Transfer- Bosman' in him?

[jloome]

I think it's whole lotta bluster, petulance and naivete of a 22 year old, otherwise let's see if he has an Ibarra vs. MLS/FIFA 'Transfer- Bosman' in him?

He wants to win and he has fight in him. The team has to convince him he likes it here. Do that and half the battle is won. But... we're not very good, let's face it.

I dunno, I'm not sure I'd want a player who was happy to come here. He may have thought saying he'd talk to the press would get them to change his mind, or they may just have zero media training in Atlanta. I highly doubt he called them. This is the Athletic asking the obvious question to an athlete, how do you feel about going to a team mired in the deep stuff.

[Ultra & Proud]

Time for Bill to do the one thing he's good at and get a table reserved at our fanciest Argentinian BBQ place and wine & dine.

But from all that coverage on the Ibarra move I think the takeaways are that we spend the most money to be as desired a destination as Colorado and that we offer zero career advancement opportunities to players. So utter embarrassment to those (he) who is in charge of this mess. Atlanta on the other hand look like older days us; incompetently sign more players than allowed and then mislead the player(s) and then dump one to a destination he didn't want with no notice. Really bad look overall.

This loan deal might end up being the straw to break some camel's backs. I would say the seats of Bill & Bocanegra are hotter now than before.

[SenorDingDong]

Anyone thinking TFC is a big club needs to rethink its whole history from day one.
2017 was a blip...the rest has been pretty much the same.

I somewhat disagree.

MLS cup finally in 2016, 2017 and 2019 is better then any other Toronto team.

Outside of that, I agree TFC has been a dumpster fire. Kinda sad we are back in that state. I think it's far more fixable then before though.

[jloome]

Time for Bill to do the one thing he's good at and get a table reserved at our fanciest Argentinian BBQ place and wine & dine.

But from all that coverage on the Ibarra move I think the takeaways are that we spend the most money to be as desired a destination as Colorado and that we offer zero career advancement opportunities to players. So utter embarrassment to those (he) who is in charge of this mess. Atlanta on the other hand look like older days us; incompetently sign more players than allowed and then mislead the player(s) and then dump one to a destination he didn't want with no notice. Really bad look overall.

This loan deal might end up being the straw to break some camel's backs. I would say the seats of Bill & Bocanegra are hotter now than before.

Next association contract is going to be interesting.

There might actually be some labour code issues in this one, in that it involves an international transfer. I'm not sure any company has a right to unilaterally assign someone to live in another country, which is what this contract does in effect. He might even have a 'bad faith' argument to have it tossed.

I just hope they use this to spur him. "If we turn it all around after you get here, what does that say about you as a player? Do you want that challenge, or is it too much for you and not 'career advantageous' enough?" Given that he's already been forced into it, there's no point playing the 'we get that you want to win' card. Atlanta is over.

I have to imagine, too, that despite them stressing it's just a six month loan, the league usually demands an option to buy. If by some miracle we get a good striker, Hedges stays healthy in the second half and we get into the playoffs, he then has all sorts of bargaining power before signing any long-term deal with us, because the transfer will negate his existing deal.

He could easily have them put in a low-grade release clause for sale to Europe, for example. If he's a good number six and we want to keep him, TFC won't have much choice.

[FiveThreeTwo]

He wants to win and he has fight in him. The team has to convince him he likes it here. Do that and half the battle is won. But... we're not very good, let's face it... I highly doubt he called them. This is the Athletic asking the obvious question to an athlete, how do you feel about going to a team mired in the deep stuff.

yeah and to add some reasoning for his concerns - "“If Toronto doesn’t qualify for the playoffs, I’ll be on vacation in two months,” Ibarra said. “I won’t play anymore. Financially nothing has changed for me, but it’s a bit unfair. I’ve played 20 games this season, I became a starter, I performed the way they asked me to. There’s something that doesn’t make sense.” [article further]

I was gonna bring this up in the conversation there yesterday about Young DPs, South american talents and failed transfers with everyone. I think this is a fundamental piece of the fabric we do archaically as a club and its naive to think it's how we can move forward and win. I can fully appreciate what Ibarra is saying, and i'm not salty in the slightest that he's offended he's moving here. We are a club that have no idea the concept of being a Buyer/Seller. Of leveraging the motivation and drive of a young player's dream of going to Europe/Bigger Club - and turning that into relentless consistency and growth on the pitch and in training; and a catalyst/inspiration for everyone else. (LAFC and Atlanta used to be unreal at harnessing this in early years).

This is how the U-22 DP slots and some of our other roster spots need to become. We shouldn't approach the use the U-22 DP slots thinking we can sign some young Akinola's long term- convince them toronto is awesome and they become a bronze statue and our new Legends in 10 years time; if they end up loving it here and want to stay cool then we make it happen. But door has to start out being open. Ibarra signed with Atlanta to grow, train, win games, find his role, mature as a footballer and get sold to Europe. He isn't coming here for Drake, Cactus Clubs, King West and our Awesome Coffee shops and diverse foods. Those are the type of guys we should want and demand here- guys that every day are coming in at 6-7am pushing themselves harder and their team mates harder, because if they don't they won't get their chance to keep their dream alive. Guys who get cushy term deals, are sold the vision of building a roster for championships, and are apart of a 'rebuild' - just get complacent and comfortable because this is their personal Acme; which usually means only doing enough to earn the paycheck and keep the lifestyle alive- especially the local guys atm.

Tbh... i'm getting tired of the old school American US sports franchise ideology that we gotta build for championships, find people that wanna be here long term, that take pay cuts and end up retiring here or having a statue or song named after them. Then we just dispose of them end of contract, buyouts, or sale on liquidation. There's nothing higher to keep ambitions or work ethic relentless. We are gonna continue to miss out on this market of quality players not because of cultural differences - but because it's not in our genes to be sellers and promote hard work in exchange for upward transfers/opportunities. And we miss out on a lot of natural motivation/determination and inspiration or vibrancy these guys bring. Even Clubs like LAFC who are loaded, Thorrington is willing to sell players and back fill the roster. It keeps the carrot dangling. How long until Almada is sold? Cifuentes?

Ibarra is just another example of these, and shows us how many players probably feel when the league has mechanisms that force his move. We aren't a desirable place to come for footballers, if you are young, ambitious and demand reaching fullest potential. Our Academy blows, we don't sell players, and don't seem to have any sense of progression or growth mindset with staff that aim to really grow and mature younger players into the fullest. We Just keep plugging players in for solutions. None of our current academy products have that Type A killer determination to succeed. We have work to-do, and hopefully Manning realizes we gotta become more than a club that just signs big name Europeans.

Edit* Noticed Ultra and Proud hit on these points too. I like that the discussion started

[Luanda]

I somewhat disagree.

MLS cup finally in 2016, 2017 and 2019 is better then any other Toronto team.

Outside of that, I agree TFC has been a dumpster fire. Kinda sad we are back in that state. I think it's far more fixable then before though.

Blips in a 16-17 year history! Less than a 20% success rate!!

[Ultra & Proud]

I have to imagine, too, that despite them stressing it's just a six month loan, the league usually demands an option to buy.

The whole thing has been pretty clandestine so I bet there is an option to buy but probably a big discussion to be had over sell on percentages.

[buddies]

Up until recently we weren't that far off. We were something like 6th in the league in least number of games lost? Our biggest issue was that we weren't scoring goals and that hasn't changed. More recently injuries and call-ups have killed us (the league has to fix this. Where else in the world do you lose four or five players to international duty and you still have to play league games).

Throw Osorio, Bernardeschi, Insigne, Hedges, Laryea and even Michael Bradley into the starting 11 last night and we probably still draw. Throw them AND a quality striker in there and we probably win and it isn't even close. This summer window needs to be used to balance the team. Maybe Ibarra replaces Bradley. Maybe Richie leaves to get the money for a striker BUT if we don't add a striker this window I'll finally buy into the wave of opinions that the TFC hierarchy doesn't have a clue as to what they are doing.

They do that as a minimum and our sick bay gets fixed and we have a decent second half of the season. Call me a dreamer but we aren't that far off. Recent results suck but get our actual best starting 11 out there and add a striker without losing anyone unexpectedly and I'll take my chances ... then winter window can be used for polishing the plan for next season.

[SenorDingDong]

I don't disagree. Like if we could get Poz back, a DP striker and e healthy I think we would be decent.

Totally agree the league needs to stop playing during these international windows. It's nonsense.

[buddies]

I don't disagree. Like if we could get Poz back, a DP striker and e healthy I think we would be decent.

Totally agree the league needs to stop playing during these international windows. It's nonsense.

I know there's cap implications but we should never have let Poz go in the first place. Him and a striker in this team is dream team stuff but most of our cap issues were caused by plugging in too many bit pieces that don't add up to what we spend on them collectively. I mean Sapong, Akinola, Kerr and MBonge collectively add up to Giakoumakis salary but they don't add up to Giakoumakis goal tally. There had to be a way to keep Poz but I guess that ship has sailed and in order to recover we need to shed dead wood. Stop signing the quantity of pluggers we do and focus on quality pieces. You have to fill out your roster, I get that but guys like Franklin, Thompson, Kerr, Marshall Rutty etc. should fill that part of the roster.

There should definitely be a rule that says if you have "x" number of players away on international duty, the game gets postponed ... at the very least. I mean look at our injury list and then you say it's ok to release players for International games AND still play league games? Insane ... and ripping off paying customers.

[ag futbol]

I don't disagree. Like if we could get Poz back, a DP striker and e healthy I think we would be decent.

Totally agree the league needs to stop playing during these international windows. It's nonsense.

Agreed.

Re: Ibarra. I would take him to dinner, throw Atlanta under the bus and tell him what we’re working on and how he fits in. Sell him on the project and challenge him to be a part of it. Sell the city too because that can be a positive.


If he doesn’t bite, I’d just flip him to a 3rd team. We can get real value out of him as a player which Atlanta probably didn’t because they were forced sellers. Leaving that aside, showing people we aren’t jerks is probably as or more important than signing individual players. People who do want to be here are on the horizon.

[MikeForbes]

Is this Ibarra thing still on? Taking their sweet time announcing it. Has anyone who covers TFC even acknowledged it?

[FootBallAZ]

I don't disagree. Like if we could get Poz back, a DP striker and e healthy I think we would be decent.

Totally agree the league needs to stop playing during these international windows. It's nonsense.

Poz signed with Saudi team

[SenorDingDong]

Poz signed with Saudi team

Not even Saudi the UAE pro league. Damn shame, him and Insigne would have been magic but hope he's getting a final pay day.

In hindsight, it's probably better we go younger and fresh Starr.