TFC 2023 player in-season roster discussion

[Valdal]

The thing with Osorio this season is hes lost his best assets, his mind. He looks a step behind. I dont know if that injury last year really put him back mentally. But he just looks lost and 2 steps behind.

Now how do we trade a 31 year old coming off a bad year who looks like hes a step or 2 behind? Hes played decently yes, but not someone you pay $1.64 million dollars a year, for the next 2 years and just expect a 31 year old Osorio to come back to form. I didnt like the contract then and I even more so hate it now

Its really all up to herdman. The thing with him is he gets in love with players and doesnt let up. But anyone whos' a true fan or mind of the game can see hes a loosing assest on the field and cant play a full 90 anymore.

[ensco]

Never even talked to Hoilett

https://wakingthered.com/2023/09/19/...otential-move/

[OgtheDim]

Before we all go railing on "the incompetence" -

There's a consistency to not signing Seba to 2 years and not considering Hoilett for what would likely be the same.

People may not like it, but it does show at least the glimmerings of a plan.


Cause, to my mind the difference between

Find me the best Italians available on Transfermarkt

&

Find me the best guy available who used to play for us

&

Find me the best guys available on the CMNt


is pretty damn slim.

[ensco]

^Big difference between Seba and Hoilett

- Hoilett is much younger, a current player with value, has a bid elsewhere
- they spent weeks dancing with Seba, had him in training… and never even spoke with junior?

[Smokecell]

The only reason you add Jr with the deal he got (essentially 2 months) is to try winning now. He won't be there in '24.

Makes no sense for us to have opened those conversations.

[ensco]

The only reason you add Jr with the deal he got (essentially 2 months) is to try winning now. He won't be there in '24.

Makes no sense for us to have opened those conversations.

Hang on. Why isn't he legit solution at striker in 2024?

[Smokecell]

Hang on. Why isn't he legit solution at striker in 2024?

I’m not saying that he’s not. More so that his reluctance to sign past ‘23 suggests that he still believes he might be able to hop back across the pond.

This also assumes that the only deal he was willing to take was the one he got. Hard to believe a player at his age wouldn’t want term though, so I’m inclined to believe it feeds into my first point.

[SenorDingDong]

Hang on. Why isn't he legit solution at striker in 2024?

I think he means he's only signed with Vancouver until the end of t he season. Kind of like a playoff rental. No guarantee he plays there next season. Same with Richie.

[jloome]

Hang on. Why isn't he legit solution at striker in 2024?

Because he's 33.

He's still a good player and would be good for the team playing wide, as Arfield has done at Charlotte.

But he's not a striker and he's 33. We should be getting younger at the starting spots, not older.

When you say 'solution' that says 'starter' to me. As a depth piece, he'd be fine, but we have no cap space to sign him right now, and I doubt he'd have waited for a deal.

EDIT: Yeah, they might not have terms with him beyond this year.

I'm told they have no intention of signing Richie as a DP, despite claims to the contrary, and that they're going to try to talk him down. I don't think he'd risk coming back here with the team the way it is, though. That would be mental from a player's perspective.

[Ultra & Proud]

Hang on. Why isn't he legit solution at striker in 2024?

Because he isn't a true striker, he's old, and we won't be a contending type team until 2025 earliest but more likely 2026. No point in old guys wasting spots until then. Find younger guys to build around and use the U22 spots effectively as in not on guys like Akinola.

[ag futbol]

We need an end run on the striker position. No more Akinola, Jimenez, Sapong, Owusu. No more “that sort of works” options.

Go out, get a DP striker and be done with it.

[SenorDingDong]

We need an end run on the striker position. No more Akinola, Jimenez, Sapong, Owusu. No more “that sort of works” options.

Go out, get a DP striker and be done with it.

Owusu has only played like 45 minutes for us, so verdict still out there.

Diomande, Akinola and Sapong I would have to assume are all gone next season.

DP Striker + Owusu and Kerr as backups work for me.

[jloome]

Having seen all of his goals and quite a bit of his play from last year, writing off Owusu would be incredibly foolish. He has a lot of talent. He's a service striker, but that's most strikers.

[ag futbol]

I appreciate Owusu might be serviceable. But I think the bar should be higher. We should be profiling someone who could be a top striker in MLS.

[Ultra & Proud]

I appreciate Owusu might be serviceable. But I think the bar should be higher. We should be profiling someone who could be a top striker in MLS.

He could be. I mocked NYRB when they signed BWP because he was a career lower league loser and look how that turned out.

[SenorDingDong]

He could be. I mocked NYRB when they signed BWP because he was a career lower league loser and look how that turned out.

In general I find the lower league European players tend to do better in MLS then the A list.

[jloome]

I appreciate Owusu might be serviceable. But I think the bar should be higher. We should be profiling someone who could be a top striker in MLS.

I didn't say he was serviceable, I said he was a service striker, as in he needs service to score goals. There have been many great strikers who needed service and couldn't create them on their own. Brandon Vazquez requires service, and he's going to go for $15M plus next year, I imagine.

He quite possibly could be a top striker in MLS. Bouanga came out of Ligue 2.

[ag futbol]

I didn't say he was serviceable, I said he was a service striker, as in he needs service to score goals. There have been many great strikers who needed service and couldn't create them on their own. Brandon Vazquez requires service, and he's going to go for $15M plus next year, I imagine.

He quite possibly could be a top striker in MLS. Bouanga came out of Ligue 2.

Wasn’t implying that. Just saying he could be alright, I don’t think he’ll be great.

I appreciate there have been guys like BWP or Vazquez in the league. My thought is those are exceptions to the norm rather than realistic expectations for someone of this profile.

Would still prefer that we spent the money.

[jloome]

Wasn’t implying that. Just saying he could be alright, I don’t think he’ll be great.

I appreciate there have been guys like BWP or Vazquez in the league. My thought is those are exceptions to the norm rather than realistic expectations for someone of this profile.

Would still prefer that we spent the money.

I dunno, I think a comptent second- or first-division striker from any top 10 country is going to better than the average North American player. They start younger, they play where there are defenses, zonal blocks that have to be overcome, team movement required to do it.

It's why Luke Rogers, a perennial League One/League Two striker in the UK, looked like a world beater in his stint at NYRB. It's why Brandon Wright Phillips, a winger in the U.K who only occasionally got to play striker, was so effective.

You want the perfect current example? Joao Klauss, the burly Brazilian at St. Louis. He has 7 goals in 14 appearances for them this year and looks well above MLS standard.

But prior to coming here, his best comparable season (I'm not counting 21 goals in Finland, it's USLII quality) was 15 goals in 42 games on in Austria, and 7 in 33 on loan in Belgium.

He never played for Hoffenheim's first team, only Hoffenheim 2... and he had five goals in 24 regional league games, well below Owusu's take in the 2.Bundesliga.

So he did not have a goalscoring pedigree in top leagues. But it's obvious watching him he's one of the more consistent and intelligent strikers in MLS. He's a 1-in-2 guy in our league.

You just need a guy who's a decent pro but BETTER at reading the game than MLS defenders. That's not that hard an ask. Give a guy like that service, and if he scored seven in a German league season, he'll score 15 here.

[FootBallAZ]

Owusu has only played like 45 minutes for us, so verdict still out there.

Diomande, Akinola and Sapong I would have to assume are all gone next season.

DP Striker + Owusu and Kerr as backups work for me.

has anyone done the math on total minutes for:

Diomanded
Akinola
Sapong
Owusu
Mailula
Guitteriez?

[ensco]

Hoilett is going to score a lot of goals in MLS through 2025. Just me 2 cents.

[jloome]

Hoilett is going to score a lot of goals in MLS through 2025. Just me 2 cents.

IT depends how they use him. Vancouver isn't really set up for the wings to score a bunch of goals. Vanni likes them more as suppliers (as well as back-post runners). Given his quality, we might see more assists from him.

When he was younger, he was excellent at the cut-in, playing inverted. So he might score a few. But they want him supplying White mostly, I think, and Gauld as the trailer.

It's hard to judge; Sartini is tactically really impressive. They're very quick to break out, switch field and find balls into the box, very direct. But the problem there for Junior is that he's substantially slower than he used to be, so he's rarely going to be the guy in the box when that happens.

They might use him more inverted though, because they have Richie as well, and Adekugbe, so they can run the overlap all day. Usually have three defenders back all the time, with one pinching up into the six area, which means they don't have to venture forward at all and can more easily cover for overlapping wingbacks.

So... you might be right. It depends a lot on whether Vancouver tries to exercise more possession than they did this year. When they're holding onto the ball, he becomes more dangerous around the top of the box. When they're in transition, he's more likely to be the guy they switch to, the cross provider.

[Oldtimer]

has anyone done the math on total minutes for:

Diomanded
Akinola
Sapong
Owusu
Mailula
Guitteriez?

Ahem...

[rydermike]

A couple years ago we had the Bernadeschi vs Hoilett MLS debate. I guess we'll have some insight to that now.

[jloome]

A couple years ago we had the Bernadeschi vs Hoilett MLS debate. I guess we'll have some insight to that now.

Bernardeschi scored 8 in his first 12 games here (although mostly penalties). He has scored 5 in 30 since then

So he totals 13 in 42, with 4 assists. Using his actual minutes played of 3,192, that's a goal every 244 minutes (although he also has seven penalty goals in there, so... eh. Not sure how even that is).

For comparison, Insigne has 10 goals and 6 assists in 29 games, or a goal every 226 minutes.

So Insigne is marginally more productive. But basically, once Criscito left and they were found out in terms of cutting in and shooting, they've been trying to force our style of play ever since.

It took me until the last game to figure out the issue, but they just cannot get away from the European style of holding possession and trying to cycle the ball to break down a block with cover movement, by using other plays to shift defenders.

That's why they keep holding on and holding on and holding on.... and getting stripped. It's also why late in games they stop passing to anyone but each other.

They basically refuse to play MLS style where everything is based on quick play, putting the ball into dangerous areas of the box and then taking your chances. They know the European style (when played with top level players) is superior to that. And I think they're trying to force our style of play into that.

But... the other guys are nowhere near good enough for that. They NEED direct play, they need blind crosses to the back post, they need bodies just charging in and occupying space. We are never going to be a tikki-takki team, not with this roster. Probably not under Herdman, either, because it's not practical at this level of football.

[jloome]

Ahem...

Diomande 165 min
Akinola 553 min (plus a whopping 44 min in San Jose)
Sapong 1,178 (for an average of one goal ever 1,178 minutes)
Owusu 60 min
Mailula 26 min
Guittierez 58 min
Vasquez 147 min


Those are your prime offenders, ladies and gentleman. Outside of Sapong, possibly the worst striker we've had since Luke Moore, we have a grand total of 1,009 minutes played by six players, or an average of 169 minutes each.

So less than two games.

I could only wish Sapong had played less than two games.

[jloome]

And in the "coaching matters" department.

Jayden Nelson at TFC: 50 games, 1 goal, 3 assists.

Jayden Nelson at Rosenborg, 23 games, 4 goals, 6 assists.

[jloome]

Man... fuck Insigne, after last night's pathetic showing. Seriously. We're never great. But we were playing okay in the first half. Then he decides he's going to play Mr. Big Moment, and he gets stripped again, and again, and again, and again.

The only way this team wins games is by moving the ball quickly. The second that ended, we were fucked. And that was largely because of how he played, as the player most frequently given the reins in their end.

Our defence is horseshit, and we probably still would have lost. But after that? Fuck MLSE if they DON'T buy the two of them out. If we have to rely on them being team players, Herdman is doomed.

[Richard]

Man... fuck Insigne, after last night's pathetic showing. Seriously. We're never great. But we were playing okay in the first half. Then he decides he's going to play Mr. Big Moment, and he gets stripped again, and again, and again, and again.

The only way this team wins games is by moving the ball quickly. The second that ended, we were fucked. And that was largely because of how he played, as the player most frequently given the reins in their end.

Our defence is horseshit, and we probably still would have lost. But after that? Fuck MLSE if they DON'T buy the two of them out. If we have to rely on them being team players, Herdman is doomed.

Not a chance of a buyout. I think we're stuck with them for at least next season unless they want to leave money on the table.

[ag futbol]

I could only wish Sapong had played less than two games.

Not only that but for the right to get Sapong we gave up a guy who has contributed 4 goals and 6 assists across all competitions AND a very useful CB. That’s got to be up there in terms of the most lobsided trades in TFC history. Our inability to spot core issues and continue to dig deeper is impressive.