TFC 2023 player in-season roster discussion

[jloome]

Sarri probably be out of work by next Monday so I wouldn't count on this happening.

They're not going to Serie A on anything close to the money they're making here. Given how they've played this year, I doubt any club there would come in for them.

People have to get over the delusion that either of these guys still has top-league value.

Bernardeschi was on a four-year decline from a bad ACL injury and wasn't going to get a new Juventus deal, or probably one anywhere in Serie 'A' on the money he wanted. (He took a pay cut from Juve to come here, unlike Insigne). Insigne at 32 is just too slow to play an MLS-style game. He was offered a 50% pay cut to stay at Napoli and NOBODY else offered him even that.

So... I just don't think any of that is going to happen.

The only way we shed them is a) we buy them out somehow or somehow convince them to take a mutual termination ( I mean, how?) or b) someone in the UAE or Saudi believes they still have Italian national team cachet (which means nothing in UAE or Saudi, they just want global stars).

Our club is built on hype right now; putting insigne int he "Top 100" players list was probably both wrong and injurious, given that he clearly has a stratospheric ego and putting JMR in the Top 100 Young players was indicative of what happens at the other end, when kids think they have far more talent and brighter prospects than they do.

[Richard]

This club needs a full replacement of players from positions 1-17.

While I think Herdman is a net positive we don't have a football director and GM who can support Herdman with a full rebuild.

Good luck replacing your first 11 in one off-season.

Next year is going to be dire again.

[Ultra & Proud]

This club needs a full replacement of players from positions 1-17.

While I think Herdman is a net positive we don't have a football director and GM who can support Herdman with a full rebuild.

Good luck replacing your first 11 in one off-season.

Next year is going to be dire again.

At this point we could sign 11 CPL & USL guys and be significantly better.

[OgtheDim]

I am looking for a change in attitude and professionalism.

Results? Not expecting anything in 2024.


2025 might be a playoff year.

2026 is the more likely good team year.

[ag futbol]

I am looking for a change in attitude and professionalism.

Results? Not expecting anything in 2024.


2025 might be a playoff year.

2026 is the more likely good team year.

I think mediocrity, as opposed to outright futility, is closer than we think. Mtl stripped their team to the floorboards in the off-season, and they are hanging around the playoff places this year. 60% of the teams make it which says you only need be sort of bad to mostly bad to have a chance to cross that bridge.

My take is: no blank cheques and EVERYONE has to hit interim performance hurdles along the way. Maybe a title run is 2-3 years out but I will not accept anymore bottom scraping like we saw with Curtis and Bob when we ignored all the early warning signs. The “oh sure things look bad right now we are really building behind the scenes and things take time. Wait until you see the progress that we’re gonna make when a plan comes together” i don’t want to hear it.

Show me real, tangible signs of improvement and progress. Otherwise, I’m out. Heck, one foot is already out the door at this point.

[FiveThreeTwo]

To add to this, I think one of the biggest lessons learned from a roster management and team dynamics side of things going forward - is this team cannot whenever the italians depart - cannot continue to build the roster like this.

There needs to be some proper risk considerations ... (especially around the power dynamics/leverage/ego/pandering risks) - when you give 1-2 players salary that quite literally totals everyone else on your team. The only time this shouldn't be a red flag is when you can get one man named Leo Messi lol.

Roster salaries needs to be smoothed out across the board within the constraints the MLS gives them. I don't care what delusions one says about the professional conduct a player should have regardless of their pay. If you are on the field making as much in a week as your team mate makes over 2 years, that poses serious locker room fuel, and sets impossible impossible targets for the DP player to hit - with regards to output vs. their paycheck. I'm not even talking about the obligations to play said players even if they are being cancerous, shit form, or end up just simply being a dud. Just purely the optics in the lockerroom and club when you give out albatross contracts like that.

Eliminate the broken salary structure, and you eliminate a whole bunch of bullshit when it comes to the team looking to iron out kinks when they are growing. Like minded players, Similarly paid players. Players that are all for one, or at least close enough that they don't see the entire organization and setup as a joke when you are busting your ass trying to earn a 9.0 ratings to help your team win - and some other dude can trot around and not attempt to win a single ball and go 60% on passing, mope around and earn 88x your annual salary. There's a reason most major clubs such as Bayern or RM have a steady incremental salary cap structure, and almost never bust it wide open where they are paying players 10-50x everyone else. There's a reason some of the best MLS squads are also fairly balanced squads, with value based DP's that complement the roster and actually produce and lead relative to their contract.

In MLS where the meta is moving towards youth and production over marketing - balanced roster means a happy roster, and although its not a sexy suite of DP's to put on marketing sheets for Euro nostalgia chasers - it builds better camaraderie and team dynamics and is hell of a lot easier for every player to buy into a central goal and fight for it (or play to their worth and challenge for places in the 11). And when that happens- teams grow, they begin to believe, they fight for a better paycheck, the fans, and their future - and the team gets into playoffs. Just my thoughts though. It's definitely one reason why this club is broken and there's a wedge in the dressing room and the culture. You have a bunch of cheap value contracts against a few guys who are no where close to their paycheck values (not just italians), and the entire team is being told to step it up without regard to the dynamics. Rookie roster management level shit.

[OgtheDim]

Teams without DPs fail

Teams without good DPs fail

[Oldtimer]

Show me real, tangible signs of improvement and progress. Otherwise, I’m out. Heck, one foot is already out the door at this point.

Greg Vanney looked pretty poor for the first nine matches of his tenure, but then you could see him start to grow. So there was progress. It took a while after that to win me over, although I was willing to wait and see because I saw progress.

I think what is missing from the Bez/Vanney era was the focus on team dynamics and character. Bez would say over and over that they weren't looking for random good players but for players who fit, particularly in terms of attitude.

(Manning did the exact opposite in picking his "Italians.")

That's the only thing that gives me some hope for Herdman, he focuses on character and in forming a "band of brothers."

[FiveThreeTwo]

Not saying don’t buy any DPs.

Just don’t buy DPs that show up wearing Celine, make 10M+ gross and cares more about personal branding and fashion then the club they play for- when the rest of the roster hardly makes 1. Lots of quality balanced mls clubs prove it can be done

[ag futbol]

Greg Vanney looked pretty poor for the first nine matches of his tenure, but then you could see him start to grow. So there was progress. It took a while after that to win me over, although I was willing to wait and see because I saw progress.

I think what is missing from the Bez/Vanney era was the focus on team dynamics and character. Bez would say over and over that they weren't looking for random good players but for players who fit, particularly in terms of attitude.

(Manning did the exact opposite in picking his "Italians.")

That's the only thing that gives me some hope for Herdman, he focuses on character and in forming a "band of brothers."

Yes, Herdman and some of his staff are the only things that keep me even half interested. Very little faith in the rest.

Yeah it took a bit for Vanney, but even still, 10 games is not that long to start to show progress compared to some of the ridiculous, ever-moving targets this team has put forward over the past few years.

[barticusz]

I think mediocrity, as opposed to outright futility, is closer than we think. Mtl stripped their team to the floorboards in the off-season, and they are hanging around the playoff places this year. 60% of the teams make it which says you only need be sort of bad to mostly bad to have a chance to cross that bridge.

My take is: no blank cheques and EVERYONE has to hit interim performance hurdles along the way. Maybe a title run is 2-3 years out but I will not accept anymore bottom scraping like we saw with Curtis and Bob when we ignored all the early warning signs. The “oh sure things look bad right now we are really building behind the scenes and things take time. Wait until you see the progress that we’re gonna make when a plan comes together” i don’t want to hear it.

Show me real, tangible signs of improvement and progress. Otherwise, I’m out. Heck, one foot is already out the door at this point.

Montreal has figured out a couple key things we have yet to do. A: using the buy low sell high model within MLS. B: they complement this with capable players creating better depth and not focusing only on high quality superstars that kill their budget or the fact that the individual is “Canadian” thereby warranting an overpay.

I’m hopeful Herdmans team can right this ship but there is so much crap to fix from the academy system all the way up. AND we still need a true sporting Director.

[Initial B]

I’m hopeful Herdmans team can right this ship but there is so much crap to fix from the academy system all the way up. AND we still need a true sporting Director.

He won't because Manning and the MLSE Board are still there. He'll be hamstrung from above and not given the funds to fix the academy because the board suits will assume that doesn't have an effect on first team performance and would affect profits. I fully expect Herdman to have a futile a season as this year was and end up back with the CMNT in 2025 leading up to the World Cup, because him joining TFC was always an exercise by Canada Soccer to keep him close by and save money on a coaching search which nicely dovetailed into MLSE's interests.

[OgtheDim]

Not sold on Montreal being a good example of decent corporate structure given Joey forced out Nancy & their season this year is less than stellar.

I fully expect Losada's ways to wear thin next season.

[MikeForbes]

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/TorontoFC/status/1711383590666129748?s=20

[leedsandTFC]

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/TorontoFC/status/1711383590666129748?s=20

Very good resume.

[OgtheDim]

More of a scouting director.

He better be more interested in analytics then Jack Dodd.

[ensco]

It's not deVos, at least

[jloome]

More of a scouting director.

He better be more interested in analytics then Jack Dodd.

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure he identified Poz before going to Austin in 2020. His track record at Austin is pretty good, too.

[leedsandTFC]

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure he identified Poz before going to Austin in 2020. His track record at Austin is pretty good, too.

Yeah seems like he was here 2016 to 2019.

Very few bad signings in that period.

[Mr. Inbetween]

It's not deVos, at least

Seems with Rubio, it was decided... what (whom) is old is new again. Is this more of a Hernandez guy/selection than Herdman?

[leedsandTFC]

Hopefully this restructuring pushes manning out of any football related decisions.

[Red CB Toronto]

More of a scouting director.

He better be more interested in analytics then Jack Dodd.

Has TFC ever had both a GM and Technical director, not really sure what the difference is when two different people are in each role. I under stand that titles can mean a million different things, the same title can be a very different job from one company to the next. What do you mean more of a scouting director, is there something to suggest there? I am still not exactly sure how analytics apply to scouting, I get it when it comes to game management and work load but scouting ...

[ag futbol]

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/TorontoFC/status/1711383590666129748?s=20

“The club has supportive ownership and a passionate fanbase.”

Oh Sean, you poor bastard. Run while you still can.

[OgtheDim]

I believe Vanney was TD with Bez as GM.

I based my suggestion he was more scouting oriented on the press release attached.

Analytics is huge in scouting - you look for data that indicates a capability that matches a team need.

Most teams in Europe above 4th level create analytical databases for their rosters.

[Amir.]

he goes way back with hernandez to when hernandez was a player with san jose and rubio was a video analyst there...they are taking a huge risk putting this rebuild in the hands of the inexperienced hernandez

[Red CB Toronto]

I believe Vanney was TD with Bez as GM.

I based my suggestion he was more scouting oriented on the press release attached.

Analytics is huge in scouting - you look for data that indicates a capability that matches a team need.

Most teams in Europe above 4th level create analytical databases for their rosters.

Are these databases to keep data on their own team's players and do they have a analysis/ report on every player in MLS? For instaces TFC will have the first overall pick in the 2024 MLS Superdraft, would TFC and other MLS have scouts at college , practices , talking to coaches to get the best data available to pick the player that suites them the best?

I get being able to collet data and analyze players at good level in Europe but say in a smaller country or part of the world, it would come down to what you see, after watching video etc.?

[MikeForbes]

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/tombogert/status/1711772341598908457?s=20

[Red CB Toronto]

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/tombogert/status/1711772341598908457?s=20

Fully expecting TFC to release a list of players who have had their 2024 options declined as we always do each year. Wonder who will will see, some of the reserves who are replaceable etc , will be interesting.

[Ultra & Proud]

Fully expecting TFC to release a list of players who have had their 2024 options declined as we always do each year. Wonder who will will see, some of the reserves who are replaceable etc , will be interesting.

Hopefully all of them or pretty close to it. No need to hang on to much of this roster, especially the starters.

[Kamp Berg]

Hopefully all of them or pretty close to it. No need to hang on to much of this roster, especially the starters.

Does anyone have a reliable list of who’s out of contract or in an option year next season?