LOL, I won't go that far. But we sure could use a backup winger who has scored three goals in his last eight starts.Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud
LOL, I won't go that far. But we sure could use a backup winger who has scored three goals in his last eight starts.
I will until I see Insigne put up a run of form worthy of a DP spot, $15M annually, and the ability to make the team better. No doubt Insigne is the better player but will he be at that level here and make us a better team? That's the question that needs to be answered.
Shaffelburg making Nashville better when he is on the pitch and for much, much less.
Interesting to see that Seattle had the lowest actual percentage attendance compared to capacity. So much for being the centre of the American soccer universe. Also, those Messi rumours are REALLY helping Miami. (graphic by christianjd, an Atlanta Redditor).
Last edited by jloome; 03-01-2023 at 12:37 PM.
^^ I tuned in before the start of the Seattle game and their whole upper level was closed off with Seattle banners over the seats..maybe they don't sell as well this early in the season?
edit: Lumen Field seats 72,000 and looks like they only had it open for 37,000 as per that article
Last edited by 613reppingTFC; 03-01-2023 at 03:07 PM.
They usually won't open those seats to the public, unless there's a big game coming up.
TORONTO FC, 2017 MLS CHAMPIONS!!! (Still the greatest in league history!)
Subtle procedural FYI
Journos were at practice yesterday - no official word though until the presser today.
So the way the reporting is going to be this year
Tuesdays - Bob asked questions - no video
Wednesday - Journos at practice but no presser
Thursday - presser with Bob & a player or two - video on club website
Building demand through extreme exclusivity is a bold move at this point.
On the TFC website is today’s footage of Pettreta and Richie but no Bradley. Hmm, I couldn’t find anything at all after the match from Bradley either. I guess we’ll have to rely on the few journalists left now that we don’t have access to their sources!
edit: Okay, the Bradley footage is up now. It’s worth watching if only to listen to Davidson sparring with the gaffer about access to information….
Last edited by los sonadores; 03-02-2023 at 03:12 PM.
And I thought the past few years of almost no leaks or really any additional info on anything were bad. Now TFC is about as forthcoming as the governments telling us what that spy balloon was all about.
The league really needs to start taking notes from its more successful peers. Where media days are mandated, access is mandated, and disclosure of injuries under certain timelines is mandated.
There’s just something about the Americans (specifically the guys around in the early days of the league) suffering through years of soccer being a small potatoes, second hand offering. They’re all cagey and defensive about everything. Has to change if we’re going to sell the game here.
MLS has fans and investors from other sports professions and continues to grow...
Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/NashvilleSC/status/1631293529451384837
Yeah I listened to the first half of Bob's presser last night, it was quiet through my headphones so i didn't finish..but man I was really put off on his response to being asked about our most expensive player and what his injury was. Why be all defensive like that, what kind of an answer is: "Look, you guys watched, right. If you were guessing what it was. There's a good chance that you'll have some idea of what it probably was. Why does that bother you so much?" Maybe it's just me but I don't get all the secrecy about it? It's not like we are going into a playoff game ala 2019 with Jozy and we were trying to hide the fact he was or wasn't ready to keep the opponent guessing.
I haven't listened to all of Bob's pressers and I was somewhat optimistic when he arrived but the more i hear this guy speak and the more I see his tactics...like only 1 non-injury sub on Saturday the first game of the season, the less impressed I am with him.
Yeah, I get that sense too, like perhaps he's been doing in the same way for so long that the methodology and ideas, at least in terms of communication, aren't sufficient anymore.
I don't think the Marsch comparison is incorrect. The style is different, but not by much, because it ends up with the same result, facing a low-mid block and our players not having enough movement and guile to break it down... which he has to teach them, ultimately.
At Leeds, Marsch -- who played under Bob at Chicago and is one of his proteges -- kept putting Leeds in games statistcally, winning the xG battle or being close, but in his last half-dozen league games, they just couldn't break down the block. A journalist asked him why he didn't employ width (becasue writers there understand tactics, and that it's hard to undo a block without width to pull defenders wide) and Marsch's reply was a grunty "because the goal is in the middle of the park."
And his entire "your question is slightly beneath me" demeanour I get off Bob, too. Just answer the fucking question. Have the humility to recognize other people read books about tactics and actually have watched or even coached football.
Plus with our record, any self-confidence he has about our tactical approach should be at least a little shaken by now. If it's not, there's going to be a serious inflexibility problem, and this league requires flexibility.
That was what killed Marsch at Leeds. I don't know if Gracia, his replacement , will do better. But they won their first game 1-0 and employed width to do it. Apparently, he told the players to ignore Marsch's "go directly to goal" all the time direction and to consider moving the ball a few times to create some openings, as well as using some width.
That was it. That was all he had to do to make them instantly more dangerous.
So coaching is important and, relative to his experience and technical knowledge, I do sort of wonder if Bob is doing enough of it, or if his tactics are just poor.
LONG EDIT: I will note that a quick check tells me that under his last year at LAFC, that team underperformed significantly. Their xG was 65, their actual goals was 53. Again, not a definitive stat but one indicative of a tactical issue.
I think that tactical issue is his offensive approach, which mirrors Gegenpress in attacking almost exclusively from the top of the box and penning the other team in with quick passing. I don't think it works unless you have a league-dominant team.
If you look at the history of teams employing it, or close variations, the ones that have won league titles in various nations were nearly always already the dominant team: Salzburg, Liverpool, Man City earlier under Pep, all of them were massively more talented than the teams they were facing. The same is true of LAFC.
Marsch once squeaked a supporter's shield at RBNY using it, but not the title. And that's one of very few I can find where it had any success without a star roster. Leeds got killed under Marsch, as did Leipzig, Southhampton got slaughtered under Ralph Hassenhuttel as well.
In each case, their teams got hammered despite decent xG, because they refused to employ width and patience to break-down a low block with movement.
In our case, we employ some width, but we also stack the top of the box with TWO central mids as suppliers, leaving one back. Given that the player back is usually Michael or MAK, it's insufficient to prevent quick transitions when possession breaks down. But facing low blocks, possession always takes longer to create a chance than we have before that occurs. The less skill we have on the pitch, the faster the breakdown.
We also seem enamoured of hugging the sidelines last week when progressing the ball. We'd give it to Michael low, starting us off slowly to begin with instead of advancing quickly, and then we'd move it wide immediately... where the winger wouldbe double-teamed, semi-isolated and have few options. It just doesn't work. And we keep doing it.
So while the problems aren't identical to Gegenpress, they're very similar and we don't seem to be adjusting for them. It's the same shit we were doing last year. And we don't have LAFC's balance from 2021 in our roster. There, he could at least parlay it into regular season glory, even if it fell short against the best teams in the playoffs. I don't expect that here.
EDIT 2: But hey, for humility's sake, maybe I'm wrong and we're glory bound. Here's hoping!
Last edited by jloome; 03-03-2023 at 11:08 AM.
If you were put off by that, listen to a Pep press conference!
Some polite passive aggressiveness at that presser by BB yesterday? Certainly was not throwing back mid-range to anyone at the beginning. What is your TFC record again in the last ten MLS matches Bob?
Last edited by Mr. Inbetween; 03-03-2023 at 10:50 AM.
Of course, Pep has the best players on Earth at his disposal. I'd love to see how any of the top pressing managers performed at Watford or MK Dons.
Bielsa, who is loved at Leeds for his style, made them winners... when they were already among the strongest teams a division down.
Against premier league talent, his pressing style got routinely slaughtered, to the tune of 20-0 for and against when facing the best teams. It also ran his team into the ground.
I was saying that in reference to not being up front with who is injured, what their status is etc. Pep will do a full on, "he's injured," then start him the next game. Or the opposite. Or there is nothing apparently wrong, he has started several games in row and done well, we like how's he's playing, but then surprise, he's not starting anymore. Like Phil Foden.
On the press thing, I don't see City as a gegenpress team. Or Pool for that matter. I think they play with elements of it, but they ditched it as it's been played by the Red Bulls a while ago. Pep likes quick recoveries but combines that with Spanish style possession, stretching teams east-west, north-south.
Klopp has repeatedly cited it as his primary influence. I think they're both more tactically flexible than gegenpress.
But the key point isn't gegepress specifically -- I cited close variations as well. It's that high-press, quick recovery offences require a lot of close ball control and movement to unsettle a bunkered defence. Very good teams, with balance, can do it. We're not playing Gegenpress, but once we have the other team penned in, the result is the same.
Average teams cannot undo a mid block. Average teams need to pull defenses north, they need to go to the touchline and pull them east and west. They need to create space. They need at least the threat of a wide cross to keep defenders honest and make them step up to defend the cross.
The best teams can operate in minimal space and rarely lose control by crossing the ball. We are not one of those teams, because we have enough players who aren't technically consistent and enough that are slow that any breach in control of the ball puts us on the back foot.
Last edited by jloome; 03-03-2023 at 12:21 PM.
For those wondering, Molinaro has an interview with the oft-maligned Jon Conway. I don't shell out the ducats for this anymore, as I didn't feel in year one the content was telling me anything new and my cash is limited, but perhaps those who do will find an explanation of how shit we've been at goalkeeping in this piece.
I suspect not, as usually TV people will not breach hard questions like "why did our keepers get consistently worse under you", or "why are you still here given our results?"
They're too concerned, typically, with losing access because they've been taught access is sacrosanct, as they need images and sound, primarily and before all else, for a TV newscast.
But I might be wrong here; John does sometimes manage to sneak in more subtle variations on the question that other TV guys would flub. Someone with a sub can let us know.
https://www.tfcrepublic.ca/tfc-mls-j...ay-goalkeeper/
-I agree with everything said- Ideas and Methodologies needs to be questioned. (went from a possession based team to a high pressing team with no success.
-I also feel like Bob's demeanor is disrespectful and condescending . I also feel like his personality and demeanour could impact how players receive/view BB- especially the younger players who in general dont take shit from old people always looking down the young.
- Inflexibility - I noticed from last season -when TFC got rid of many players and played a system which wasnt positioning players to have the most success- I remember maybe the 3rd last game was the first time BB changed formation during the game and I believe it impacted the game for TFC in a positive manner- but took a whole season before actually trying a different formation/tactic.
- I absolutely detested that the ball always has to start with bradley- this guy slows it down so much that defenses have time to recover and make it difficult. I believe I saw LI covered by three players and I believe FB was surrounded by 4 once LI was subbed off.
- I agree same shit as last year- also am not comfortable with the tactics or strategy- seems like its the only way to play footie when we all know there are so many many options beside the one BB wants to implement even when TFC doesnt have the quality or speed.
I truly hope - BB somehow lightens up a bit - like when grandparents treat their grand kids much nicer with a open ear and respect.
lets go TFC.
It seems almost a belief system to high-press coaches that either Total Football or Gegenpress and derivatives are sacrosanct and brilliant. In fact they're both forty-plus years old and have always worked best when run by teams already exceptional to begin with.
For a while, if you were a great team playing other great teams, it was an edge to play "offensive defense" by trying for constant quick recoveries and attacks. But most teams can't do it effectively; they can't move the ball quickly and accurately enough to unlock a static defense with 10 men behind the ball. They certainly can't do it if they're always trying to direct play through an inverted winger, at the top corners. Yes, that's where a greater number of chances originate. But simply eliminating all other options -- including movement purely for the sake of unlocking a defense, which it does --doesn't make any sense at all.
It didn't work with Rangnick at Man Utd, it didn't work with Marsch, Klopp's more flexible version has stopped working. To be a winning formula, it seems to require the exact right balance of players, and that is hard to achieve.
The guy most succesful with it right now at our level is Jim Curtin at Philly. Hardcore fans and tactical critics of MLS have marvelled, given their records and success, that he hasn't won a title yet.
I'm actually not surprised. No matter how personable or dedicated the coach is, sticking to the same exact set of tactics constantly as if they're sacrosanct is just inflexible enough to always give your opponent a defensive edge.
Yeah, he got them with a few minutes of stoppage time last year, with what was, on paper, the second strongest team in the league to begin with. But... again, no title.
Let's look at the list of proteges: No title for Marsch at RBNY, no title for Curtin. Peter Nowak had one in MLS 1.0 but hasn't had anything since and was fired from his last MLS job, at Philly, for abusing his players. Tom Soehn had one supporter's shield in MLS 1.0, nothing since. TOm's own protege, Jay Heaps, has zero titles.
In effect, not a single guy who he mentored, nor Bob himself, has won a title now in 25 years, other than Marsch's win at Salzburg... where he had Earling Haaland and the biggest budget in his league by a massive degree.
I wonder if that's coincidence, or if the same doggedness and self-belief that underpins all of it is just hiding the fact that it's not a very effective tactical approach, and that they're collective man management is not what it should be.
Even when he came close (Le Havre missed promotion by losing on the last day, Staebek came second in the league) he's fallen down at the final hurdle, same with LAFC. He left and ... I hate to say it, but they became a better club.
I would very much like this to be wrong. But I sort of fear the combined tactical approach and style of personnel management is just outdated.
Last edited by jloome; 03-03-2023 at 02:42 PM.
It can work with complete ham n' egger teams too and get them to punch above their weight (NYRB some years) but we aren't that and we're not built to do any sort of all out sustained pressing, even with the new players BB brought in himself.
Punch above weight... but never win a title. Marsch got ONE supporter's shield in NY, and that was it. Struber hasn't managed even that.
Marsch used a Gegenpress derivative -- not a true 4222 gegenpess but a modified 4-2-3-1 -- to effect to beat Liverpool and Chelsea. But against team of relative strength, whose dominance wasn't disrupted by it, it just failed.
And as you say, to even punch above weight requires the right type of players: fast, aggressive, running non-stop and winning most balls on the tackle.
That's not us.
This is my concern. Even if, let’s say, Vanney had to clean house dramatically and go with not at all ready for it kids, I still don’t think he’d play so many players out of position. If he had a hunch that someone might be able to really stick in another position he’d try it. He was quite good at divining were guys should truly be playing (Richie as a wing back who also occasionally played wide and high in the midfield) to give only one example. But Bradley last season really did that without knowing guys and it all seemed to have a theoretical rather than reality basis in who the players were and how they needed to play to succeed.
Your post in the game thread might be right, though. Maybe he WILL adjust. I read a long piece on him a few years ago in SI ( I think it was SI) when he was US coach, and the one thing it stressed was that even though he favors high possession, pressing recovery football, he's also willing to adapt tactically to the requirements at hand.
It just feels like we haven't seen that much or when we do it's been too late. Last week was a good example; he clearly went to a less rotational and more zonal mid, with a defacto 10/8/6 stagger (or maybe more 6/8/8, either way someone was generally back) in the second half and players closer together, to offer more support. Michael stayed back more, Kaye was more an eight than a 10, Osorio was more a 10 than an 8.
If we'd just started that way, we probably would've walked over DC. Hell, if we just started that way in most games instead of being so tactically bold, we'd probably walk over most teams.
The reason we can't really adjust all that much tactically is....MB.
Trying to imagine a home game a week tomorrow.....and us with another Snowmageddon on the way.
I will never understand managers that cannot be flexible and adapt their tactics in game, or over the course of a season. I know some really have no clue as to what other ways there are to play the game, but at the highest levels you really have no excuse.
The reason we can't adjust tactically isn't MB, it's the manager that thinks he should play despite all the problems it causes tactically.
Yes and no. I am conflicted on this matter. Of late performances by/injuries of MAK and Oso are not helpful to that situation; any opportunity to start a gradual transition. Of course, it would be pragmatic and fair for him to sit, sub-out or sub-in much more often. And yet... Michele, still has some currency with me, is my ride and die for now; O Captain! My Captain! Lead Us To Glory... Again.
I agree that tactical flexibility is key. I hate coaches that are just Plan-A-or-Nothing. The best thing about Vanney was the team's ability to change formations and play styles as needed.
If BB is just going to be one of these force-the-system no matter what guys, then he'll have to go sooner rather than later.
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