2023 General TFC/MLS Banter (no transfer/roster discussion)

[Initial B]

My argument is that it is possible to have both pro/relegation AND protect franchise value AND respect NA playoff traditions. It's also possible to do it while increasing the value of the entire league schedule. And all it would take is tweaking what's already there.

1. Raise the number of teams in MLS to 36.
2. Instead of having an east-west division system, move to a tiered division system and award each tier a title.
3. Buy out the USL C and turn it into a third division.
4. Allow some teams from each of the top two tiers into the MLS Cup playoffs, and award a separate playoff title to the winner.
5. Include a guarantee promo/relegation between Premier Division and Division One of, say, three teams.
6. Include a difficult-but-possible promo of ONE team from Division One to div Two, making it extremely difficult to achieve, so that relegation from One to Two in effect is only a penalty for exceptional incompetence. Similar to the Mexican lower-league promotion chance, the teams would have substantially lower salary caps in div two, and would have to win a multi-leg playoff against the potentially relegated team. (And put in financial protections, similar to the Premier league, that give the relegated team an advantage to return immediately)...

So you'd have an 18 team MLS Premier Division, with the top team getting a renamed Supporter's Shield as Premier Division Champions. The bottom three teams get relegated to the First Division. 15 clubs make the cup playoff.

You'd have an 18 team MLS Division One, with the top team getting the Division One title. The top three teams (abitrary, but it works elsewhere) get promoted to the Premier Division. The top nine clubs make the cup playoffs, with the ninth going up against the Div 3 winner in a playoff to make the Cup bracket.

You'd have a 24-team MLS Division Two, with the top team getting the Division Two title and a chance to play the bottom team in Division One for promotion, assuming they can meet financial conditions. The top team would also play the ninth placed div two team for a chance to make the MLS Cup bracket.

Division Two would be salary capped WELL BELOW MLS, further hampering any possibility an existing MLS club might lose franchise value. Frankly, if after this much advantage it still isn't enough, they're probably a financial drag on the league already. There could even be a lost value mechanism in which the promoted club pays a percentage of perceived lost value to guarantee their MLS spot and compensate the relegated.

The consequences of this:
* All season games now mean something, as does the final league standing.
* The schedule is division only, so completely balanced.
* All the playoff games mean something. Playoff tradition is respected and existing franchise value is well-protected.
* And MLS becomes, in many respects, in accordance with football elsewhere, increasing foreign fan and owner buy-in.
* Lower-level football in America would be massively more meaningful due to growth and promotion potential. Whether this sticks after a decade without anyone achieving it, I don't know. But by then, people might be supporting their club to the fullest due to supporter culture growth, not just the perception of being a top league.

I've possibly overcomplicated this all in presentation but basically, the way to have promo/rel AND playoffs is to just eliminate it being a LEAGUE relegation, and make it a division relegation. As long as the owners and playoffs fans know they can still play for MLS Cup against the best teams, everyone is happy.

I've done a lot of thinking about this over the years, and I think the thing to remember is that the owners just want to ensure their assets retain or increase in value and maximize profits. But with the addition of CCL, Leagues Cup, and all the other cash grabs they've instituted over the years, they've put a lot of wear on players. I think I would go with your overall setup, but I would revise the season format.

Premier Division - 18 teams, balanced 34-game schedule with the top team at end of season gets MLS Cup. Bottom team gets relegated, next 8 bottom teams play in a two-round, best-of-three playoffs with the 2 losing clubs at the end getting relegated as well.

Championship Division - (75% of Premier Salary Cap and 80% of equivalent Premier TV revenues) 12-18 teams, 34-game schedule with the top team at end of season wins supporters shield and automatic promotion to Premier. The next 8 top teams play in a two-round, best-of-three playoffs with the 2 winning clubs at the end getting promoted as well. The 4 bottom teams play in a two-round, best-of-three playoffs. The losing club will then play a best-of-three playoff against the top USL Division club to determine which club gets to play in Division 2 next year.

USL Division - (whatever Salary Cap they can agree on, probably a LOT less than the other two divisions) can organize itself however it wants, but the end-of-season champion gets to play for the losing Championship club as noted above. If they manage to defeat the Championship club, they will be promoted to that division in their place. However, the USL club could also chose to decline promotion and stay in the USL Division, but the losing Championship Club will have to pay the USL club a $10 million fee (or should it be more to punish their incompetence?) for sucking so bad.

I would think the playoffs would be compelling, so Apple TV could still get their money, the top teams' players wouldn't be overworked so they can perform better in continental competitions, and there is still a dream for lower division clubs to move up the table.

[jloome]

I've done a lot of thinking about this over the years, and I think the thing to remember is that the owners just want to ensure their assets retain or increase in value and maximize profits. But with the addition of CCL, Leagues Cup, and all the other cash grabs they've instituted over the years, they've put a lot of wear on players. I think I would go with your overall setup, but I would revise the season format.

Premier Division - 18 teams, balanced 34-game schedule with the top team at end of season gets MLS Cup. Bottom team gets relegated, next 8 bottom teams play in a two-round, best-of-three playoffs with the 2 losing clubs at the end getting relegated as well.

Championship Division - (75% of Premier Salary Cap and 80% of equivalent Premier TV revenues) 12-18 teams, 34-game schedule with the top team at end of season wins supporters shield and automatic promotion to Premier. The next 8 top teams play in a two-round, best-of-three playoffs with the 2 winning clubs at the end getting promoted as well. The 4 bottom teams play in a two-round, best-of-three playoffs. The losing club will then play a best-of-three playoff against the top USL Division club to determine which club gets to play in Division 2 next year.

USL Division - (whatever Salary Cap they can agree on, probably a LOT less than the other two divisions) can organize itself however it wants, but the end-of-season champion gets to play for the losing Championship club as noted above. If they manage to defeat the Championship club, they will be promoted to that division in their place. However, the USL club could also chose to decline promotion and stay in the USL Division, but the losing Championship Club will have to pay the USL club a $10 million fee (or should it be more to punish their incompetence?) for sucking so bad.

I would think the playoffs would be compelling, so Apple TV could still get their money, the top teams' players wouldn't be overworked so they can perform better in continental competitions, and there is still a dream for lower division clubs to move up the table.

I'd love to see this, but I don't think the owners would ever go for it. They won't brook relegation/promotion unless they still have a shot at the big title. So MLS cup still has to be a playoff bracket, and existing franchises, which may be a division down, have to have a chance of winning it.

Your model is basically the traditional promo/relegation model. I don't think they'll bite unless cup playoffs and franchises "prestige" via a chance at the cup are protected. And if USL were being let in, they'd want control of that league as well, or at the least prohibitive measures to make it difficult for a USL club to "usurp" existing franchise value.

But ideally? Yeah, I'd love to just see the league winner be the titlist. And they'd probably get as much, or more, fan hype out of relegation-based playoffs. I'd love to see it.

[ensco]

"Act now! This item is almost sold out."

https://shop.realsports.ca/collectio...c-track-jacket

[Mr. Inbetween]

^
OVO X Toronto FC Track Jacket @ $158.00 and OVO X Toronto FC Track Pant @ $138.00 + Tax = Circa $ 334.48... Ouchy.

[Mr. Inbetween]

FYI...

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/WakingtheRed/status/1639647660880584706

[Mr. Inbetween]

According to CR7, the Saudi Professional League will be among the best/top five football leagues in the world; is better than MLS.

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/FabrizioRomano/status/1638631362487013376

[jloome]

According to CR7, the Saudi Professional League will be among the best/top five football leagues in the world; is better than MLS.

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/FabrizioRomano/status/1638631362487013376

I've seen a few Saudi League games over the last decade. It's most certainly not. It's probably improving, no doubt, but it's always been a showboat league, similar to the African domestic leagues, with plenty of ball skill but less discipline and less defending than you'd expect.

Notionally, the idea that players are going to take the LIV route when they're already massively wealthy in Euro football seems deluded. Plus, it's Saudi Arabia. People actively don't want to live there because it's an oppressive religious autocracy.

[Section 223]

According to CR7, the Saudi Professional League will be among the best/top five football leagues in the world; is better than MLS.

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/FabrizioRomano/status/1638631362487013376

I mean what can he really say? Won’t please the Saudis if he calls the league garbage, paying him a shit load of money and no big European side would take him

[Oldtimer]

Roster discussions are to go in the roster thread. Please stay on topic, please. Thanks.

[jloome]

MLS teams may combine to pay for Messi's salary, according to this French article.
https://www.maxifoot.fr/football/article-53771.htm

[SenorDingDong]

MLS teams may combine to pay for Messi's salary, according to this French article.
https://www.maxifoot.fr/football/article-53771.htm

Do the teams who contribute to pay get some share of the jersey sales?

[Ultra & Proud]

MLS teams may combine to pay for Messi's salary, according to this French article.
https://www.maxifoot.fr/football/article-53771.htm

I think they will just alter the rules on jersey money to suit him & Miami. Even I admit that if Messi comes and all of a sudden there's an extra 5 million jerseys sold or whatever then some team like Vancouver shouldn't get a cut of that extra money. If that's what is meant by paying, then that makes sense. Maybe if Apple subscriptions jump up whatever percentage worldwide they can toss him some extra side money as well but I figure he will get a ton of $$$ advertising opportunities from MLS partners.

If he does go there one thing I bet happens; Miami will be the first MLS team to have a new home & away jersey on the same year along with a third kit and that will probably happen every year until he's retired.

[benito]

He would have an huge impact on ticket sales for every city he visits. It’s less than 20 away games but I could see clubs moving those games from smaller mls stadiums to larger football stadiums. Beckham had a similar effect for the first year or two too.

[jloome]

MLSE taking the piss.

[los sonadores]

MLSE taking the piss.

The Italians have sold seasons tickets and we’re hardy keeners.

[OgtheDim]

It looked like 22K. There are lots of people in each section but 2/3 full looked about right. You can't see it on TV but even the outer fringes of the top East side are 2/3. Its pretty consistent.

[los sonadores]

MLSE taking the piss.

It looked like 22K. There are lots of people in each section but 2/3 full looked about right.

Same with the first match even though there was 5 inches of snow packed up in my row in 223. Lots of people braving the stupid scheduling.

[ElvistheEvilScotsman]

You know MLSE isn’t happy about the real attendance is when they sent out an email last week explaining the options you have to sell and donate your tickets if you are unable to attend.

[Joe Kool]

You know MLSE isn’t happy about the real attendance is when they sent out an email last week explaining the options you have to sell and donate your tickets if you are unable to attend.

I thought that was interesting. First time I have seen that from them ever. Maybe don't make March/April games in the evening and you get more bums in seats. They need to speak up with the league.

[Canary10]

Apparently Messi has been offered €400 million a year to play in Saudi Arabia. Anyone still think an MLS team has a chance?

[Ultra & Proud]

Apparently Messi has been offered €400 million a year to play in Saudi Arabia. Anyone still think an MLS team has a chance?

Realistically the only hope is that he wants to be closer to Argentina and live the US lifestyle rather than the Middle Eastern one.

[FootBallAZ]

"Act now! This item is almost sold out."

https://shop.realsports.ca/collectio...c-track-jacket

this is a strong indicator of how relevant TFC is- I mentioned this last time when OVO X TFC merchandise didnt sell out and was countered by it was a re-stock - cant judge by that.

Now I see this new merchandise and nothing sold out- they over estimated the hype for TFC - generally as drake is global this should have the items already sold out- comparing it to the raptors who sells out under an hour or two.

big red flag for sure- I do think they havent advertised globally or maybe more sales would have happened by now.

[SenorDingDong]

Apparently Messi has been offered €400 million a year to play in Saudi Arabia. Anyone still think an MLS team has a chance?

I still really don't think he goes there. Dont think he wants to copy Ronaldo and the whole Saudi league turns into Messi vs Ronaldo.

I think its either Barca or Miami.

[jloome]

https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/toron...f-the-matchday

Fede wins goal of the week.

[Section 223]

https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/toron...f-the-matchday

Fede wins goal of the week.

Remember when there was a bit of a debate on this site as to whether we should sign Berna

[Joe Kool]

this is a strong indicator of how relevant TFC is- I mentioned this last time when OVO X TFC merchandise didnt sell out and was countered by it was a re-stock - cant judge by that.

Now I see this new merchandise and nothing sold out- they over estimated the hype for TFC - generally as drake is global this should have the items already sold out- comparing it to the raptors who sells out under an hour or two.

big red flag for sure- I do think they havent advertised globally or maybe more sales would have happened by now.

It has been "almost sold out" for weeks now and today all sizes still available. LOL

Sidenote - Real Sports Apparel is a nightmare to deal with if trying to use them as an online store. I think they expect any returns to come into the store physically instead of returning by mail. They will not pay for returns by mail and they will not refund the sales tax you paid. I ordered a jacket one time and it came totally crushed and stuffed into a little package so I told them I didn't want to keep it. They made me pay my own postage to send it back to them and then told me my refund would be the cost of the item only and not the tax. Who does that? Never heard of that before for any store. So due to their careless packaging I lost money on returning it. They told me they would refund my card in a few weeks after receiving it. I never got my refund. I contacted them and they told me to show them proof they received it so luckily I used tracking on shipping it back. Finally they refunded the amount back minus the tax. I will never shop from them again.

[Ultra & Proud]

this is a strong indicator of how relevant TFC is- I mentioned this last time when OVO X TFC merchandise didnt sell out and was countered by it was a re-stock - cant judge by that.

Now I see this new merchandise and nothing sold out- they over estimated the hype for TFC - generally as drake is global this should have the items already sold out- comparing it to the raptors who sells out under an hour or two.

big red flag for sure- I do think they havent advertised globally or maybe more sales would have happened by now.

Bigger question is how relevant Drake and his overpriced OVO brand are to the general TFC fan.

For me, on top of being laughably priced, the hoodies and such are just plagued by half-assed, shit designs. The MLS Store has better for half the price and things do sell out there.

I think in the case of this OVO TFC line they misjudged the demographic because I couldn't give two shits about Drake or his crummy line of gear and obviously there are thousands of people who feel the same way I do.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Remember when there was a bit of a debate on this site as to whether we should sign Berna

Yeah we didn't need him. We had another player that hasn't panned out yet.

Glad we got him. He's one of very few bright spots on the side.

[Section 223]

You know MLSE isn’t happy about the real attendance is when they sent out an email last week explaining the options you have to sell and donate your tickets if you are unable to attend.

I decided not to go to the first two games because of the cold, couldn’t find any friends that wanted the tickets, so I put them on Ticketmaster resale for $15 each still no takers.

[Canary10]

It has been "almost sold out" for weeks now and today all sizes still available. LOL

Sidenote - Real Sports Apparel is a nightmare to deal with if trying to use them as an online store. I think they expect any returns to come into the store physically instead of returning by mail. They will not pay for returns by mail and they will not refund the sales tax you paid. I ordered a jacket one time and it came totally crushed and stuffed into a little package so I told them I didn't want to keep it. They made me pay my own postage to send it back to them and then told me my refund would be the cost of the item only and not the tax. Who does that? Never heard of that before for any store. So due to their careless packaging I lost money on returning it. They told me they would refund my card in a few weeks after receiving it. I never got my refund. I contacted them and they told me to show them proof they received it so luckily I used tracking on shipping it back. Finally they refunded the amount back minus the tax. I will never shop from them again.

What?!! This is ridiculous!