2023 General TFC/MLS Banter (no transfer/roster discussion)

[ensco]

We will never know the “math” around the Apple/MLS deal. You know who else won’t really know? MLS.

Find any Netflix research report. The big streaming services never disclose meaningful metrics around how they measure the profitability of shows or programs, despite intense pressure on them to do so. Everyone wants to know, what is “viewership” at “Stranger Things/Ted Lasso/[Whatever]”… they Netflix's and Disneys deliberately say very little about this, even to their production partners (which is what MLS is here- they are the exact same as the guys producing a niche show on Netflix or Disney or whatever). In fact, especially to their production partners - they want these guys in the dark, as part of the leverage they have over them.

The streamers have been forced to give some info, so they do disclose “hours views” of top shows. So you get this kind of thing now…
https://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...d-july-13-2022

But here’s the dirty secret. Viewership of any particular show per se doesn’t really matter to them. It's where the conversation starts, but what matters is the quality and quantity of “engagement” - how many people click on a show, how many stay for more than 60 seconds, how many stay for more than 5 minutes, how many stay for the whole thing, and, most critically of all: what do different customer personas do before and after clicking on a show, and what types of combinations of content correlate to keeping users on the site, vs churning out.

The actual things that correlate to watching, or canceling, those are jealously guarded crown jewels.

So what this is really about is: how many MLS hardcores can you get to watch other Apple + shows, and what shows, and for how long , and in what “order”… and how do subscriber behaviours for "product" like this change the mix? (Note that the biggest subscriber customer bases out there are Britbox on Amazon, which exists in precisely the same way MLS Season pass does… and many wonder if that is the future for everything.) Amazon has started a second supplemental service, Paramount, in search of this type of customer.

How do I know this is what this is “really about”? Easy. The 730pm start times in the Northeastern winter. That can only be about enticing MLS viewers elsewhere before and after the game, in a prime TV viewing time. Even at the cost of seriously degrading the product. (Hat tip to jloome who figured this out a while ago.) Live sports fed programming for decades (60 Minutes on CBSon Sundays at 7pm is no accident). Could we get back to that world?

MLS (and Apple too I suppose) hope the opposite might be true - that some Apple viewers in non-traditional markets will start watching MLS - the parallel would be Drive to Survive, which has driven F1 viewership up in North America big time. I have to say, I personally doubt there will be much of that - because Drive to Survive is actually better than F1, but MLS soccer in March in the cold is worse than other soccer products - but who knows?

This is a lab experiment at heart. What “matters” is whether this helps Apple figure out whether this model can be extended to the NFL or NBA. I think the NBA is especially suited for the Apple/MLS model, as it is, kind of uniquely, genuinely a single entity global team sports product. I could see an Apple/NBA deal someday that would be worth 10x the Apple/MLS deal, with Apple having used to MLS deal to figure out and perfect the business model.

Also: all streamers are ruthless, and the business model is ruthless. If this isn’t working, Apple will have a way to cut bait long before 10 years. Not that I am privy to how this contract works- I just know something about how streamers negotiate generally. This is why MLS rushed out all the nosestretchers about Ronaldo, I believe. MLS moved to Hollywood, and, like everyone else in Hollywood, MLS live in fear of getting "cancelled".

Back to the original point: anybody tweeting about “subscriber counts” or “viewership” is not talking about how Apple or anyone else would actually measure this.

[Mr. Inbetween]

“Sources in Saudi Arabia have told ESPN of plans for up to 50 players from Europe's big five leagues and Portugal's top flight to move to the SPL this summer. The plan, backed by Saudi Arabia's ministry of sport, is for out-of-contract players in those leagues to be targeted by SPL clubs.”

https://www.espn.com/soccer/saudi-pr...rld-soccer-map

Not great news for our DP search if we don't have the same budget, and all the out of contract players are getting poached by the Saudi league.

Perhaps. I also wonder if this potential impact ties in with CR7's recent prognostication about the KSA League, as well as, the EPL's on-going nuanced concerns, reviews of and/or decisions on, foreign... specifically quasi state-adjacent entities as the PIF and their involvement in/ownership stakes of clubs; a preparation for any possible future oustings.

According to CR7, the Saudi Professional League will be among the best/top five football leagues in the world; is better than MLS.

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/FabrizioRomano/status/1638631362487013376

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/JacobsBen/status/1640748894068920321

[Mr. Inbetween]

Because made up negative news generates engagement, it's why we should focus on sources with credibility. Anyone can make up anything they want on twitter, and they often do. If it's a random twitter accounts breaking it it isn't worth thinking about, basically

Twitter is NOT real life!!!!!

We will never know...

As always, ensco, great comments, thoughts on and contribution towards the argument.

JoesphNdo and Redcoe15 your comments are welcomed and appreciated also. I get it. As Michelle Wolf suggests, 'social media has made every opinion valuable, especially if it causes a controversy, like right now it's Tweets and Instagram, but before that it was Blogs and before that it was Manifestos. I personally love Manifestos, because you know when someone writes one of them, they're F-crazy. And that's all your Tweets are. Your Tweets are just tiny manifestos. And you know what Blogs are, right? Blogs are a conversation no one wanted to have with you'.

I essentially disagree with none of you. Yet, I'll be everyone's huckleberry. I do have contextual hesitations; find it challenging to not ever consider just because it is solely breaking from a random account. Even with a self-awareness that in 90+% of such instances, Twitter is nonsense.

My narrow perspective and limited knowledge has me thinking the notions/positions that 'The Medium Is The Message', as well as, 'if journalism is an evolving process we may all now be craftsmen and the New-New Journalism is upon us'. I respect the disdain many have for Twitter; deserving, sure. I understand there are only handfuls of 'credible' football journos; sigh. Furthermore, I would suggest an ability to intelligently deduct from social media relevant delineations, markers, signals, still persists. I also realize knowing how to read those tea leaves, that execution, happens with time and experience; helps build one's integrity. Either when applied to a source or oneself. But, we finds ourselves in an 'instant' age, however wrong, one must accept and live within these realities of that current media landscape; the paradigm shift media-communication and journalism is experiencing. The apparent micro vs macro implications of that democratization to the lowest common denominator. And apart from the Typesetting vs. Computer Graphic Programming schism, now the 60Minutes to VICE to Citizen issue. Obviously the challenge is to learn to discern within any segment, without foolishly ignoring or outright dismissing. However, the supposition still needs to be acknowledged that stories are not always/only broke by the credible, that sometimes they are now just reaffirmed or carried forward with such a brand/seal of integrity by the credible from kernels of the not so credible. That such sources are even used as shortcuts/leads by some in this changed profession to identify, focus and even comment upon potential or emerging stories; to create or add content.

I am not ready yet to throw away the baby with the bath water of Citizen, Alternative, and Participatory Journalism/Media. IDK, I feel what is 'credible' enough in instances is subjective for many.

Would Conner Fleming of The18 be credible? While he dismiss tweets in general, as well as, the tweet in question, he still finds time to comment and agree with it's assertion while conveniently implying Apple would still not be worried.

https://the18.com/soccer-news/mls-ap...ass-cost-total

Or perhaps even World Soccer Talk which also comments on the matter?

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/worldsoccertalk/status/1642951478959538177

[JoesphNdo]

As always, ensco, great comments, thoughts on and contribution towards the argument.

JoesphNdo and Redcoe15 your comments are welcomed and appreciated also. I get it. As Michelle Wolf suggests, 'social media has made every opinion valuable, especially if it causes a controversy, like right now it's Tweets and Instagram, but before that it was Blogs and before that it was Manifestos. I personally love Manifestos, because you know when someone writes one of them, they're F-crazy. And that's all your Tweets are. Your Tweets are just tiny manifestos. And you know what Blogs are, right? Blogs are a conversation no one wanted to have with you'.

I essentially disagree with none of you. Yet, I'll be everyone's huckleberry. I do have contextual hesitations; find it challenging to not ever consider just because it is solely breaking from a random account. Even with a self-awareness that in 90+% of such instances, Twitter is nonsense.

My narrow perspective and limited knowledge has me thinking the notions/positions that 'The Medium Is The Message', as well as, 'if journalism is an evolving process we may all now be craftsmen and the New-New Journalism is upon us'. I respect the disdain many have for Twitter; deserving, sure. I understand there are only handfuls of 'credible' football journos; sigh. Furthermore, I would suggest an ability to intelligently deduct from social media relevant delineations, markers, signals, still persists. I also realize knowing how to read those tea leaves, that execution, happens with time and experience; helps build one's integrity. Either when applied to a source or oneself. But, we finds ourselves in an 'instant' age, however wrong, one must accept and live within these realities of that current media landscape; the paradigm shift media-communication and journalism is experiencing. The apparent micro vs macro implications of that democratization to the lowest common denominator. And apart from the Typesetting vs. Computer Graphic Programming schism, now the 60Minutes to VICE to Citizen issue. Obviously the challenge is to learn to discern within any segment, without foolishly ignoring or outright dismissing. However, the supposition still needs to be acknowledged that stories are not always/only broke by the credible, that sometimes they are now just reaffirmed or carried forward with such a brand/seal of integrity by the credible from kernels of the not so credible. That such sources are even used as shortcuts/leads by some in this changed profession to identify, focus and even comment upon potential or emerging stories; to create or add content.

I am not ready yet to throw away the baby with the bath water of Citizen, Alternative, and Participatory Journalism/Media. IDK, I feel what is 'credible' enough in instances is subjective for many.

Would Conner Fleming of The18 be credible? While he dismiss tweets in general, as well as, the tweet in question, he still finds time to comment and agree with it's assertion while conveniently implying Apple would still not be worried.

https://the18.com/soccer-news/mls-ap...ass-cost-total

Or perhaps even World Soccer Talk which also comments on the matter?

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/worldsoccertalk/status/1642951478959538177

Sorry man, but there's absolutely zero - literal zero - value in showing arguments from twitter eggs and presenting it as inside information.

If we are going to get someone breaking news directly from an inside source from the head of apple HQ it's almost certainly not going to be "MLS gone wild" and presenting that stuff like it's news completely takes away from any actual relevant discussion

Agree the medium isn't inherently wrong. If a journalist with a track record and likely inside sources tweets, that's news. If "MLS gone wild" claims they have a source at apple? Some twitter egg tweets that Toronto are talking to mbappe but need him to come in under tam? You may as well use chatgpt to just generate fun rumours

Again apple may hate the MLS deal now, who knows? But we've learned as much from "MLS gone wild" on the topic as we would from a random number generator. They're literally making their comment up.

[Mr. Inbetween]

^
The gentleman in me is inclined to suggest let’s us agree to disagree on some of this, the pessimist is resigned to state ‘it just doesn’t matter’… with the emergence of AI, ‘credibility’ will soon be scorched from the media scape.

[Ultra & Proud]

Sorry man, but there's absolutely zero - literal zero - value in showing arguments from twitter eggs and presenting it as inside information.

Agree with this, especially with them judging it by their traffic. Like I have never visited them or even heard of them and with the new format at Apple, why would anyone need to check the schedule after the first few weeks. Everyone should have it pretty much figured out by now and there are better places to look than on "MLS Gone Wild" to see match ups.

[Initial B]

Not sure if this twitter post is at all reliable. TFC to leave USSDA and MLS academy leagues?

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/MrKnowl02845146/status/1641265990682963968

This makes sense to me. TFCA used to play in the OPDL when my son was going through the system, but with their players offset by a year. (TFCA '02s playing against '01s). L1O will have the U19s playing against men and the level of play isn't too bad.

[jloome]

^
The gentleman in me is inclined to suggest let’s us agree to disagree on some of this, the pessimist is resigned to state ‘it just doesn’t matter’… with the emergence of AI, ‘credibility’ will soon be scorched from the media scape.

You need to get over this notion that any news source can be always reliable, all the time.

Even the best reporters occasionally get it wrong or fuck up.

What you need to judge is the quality of THEIR source -- if there is one -- and the relative track record together.

Without knowing a source, take anything as probably untrue. That's the problem with modern reporting, and sports reporting has been fucking this up longer than most.

The willingness to let "sources" be unnamed in almost any circumstances -- rather than only when they stand to lose a job or be jailed, an even then with an argument to transparency -- has replaced good reporting.

So nobody can judge an information's "primary source" any more for validity, or go back to that source for evidence/justification.

This applies across the media.

Bob Woodward knew what he was unleashing with "Deep Throat" and unnamed sources. He warned against this for years.

But ultimately, even honest, reliable journalists are paid and employed by businessmen. The businessmen want to make as much money as possible, and if people accept biased journalism -- or even revel in the sense of security that their "safe space" source will always say what they think is true -- that's all they will ever get. That becomes "the product."

And since it requires no real investigative talent or moral fiber, it's also cheaper to produce. The only time this isn't the case is when the company's niche is actual reliability and regional neutrality, like AP and CP.

The only way to combat this is to not give in to it, to lobby for publicly funded media (because every neutral study ever done shows it to be less biased and more informative) and to refuse to contribute to social media as a 'news source.' Because it's not. It's just untrustworthy gossip, made up by untrustworthy people.

You have to understand that there is ZERO risk to a twitter "journalist." He can look at what he believes is LIKELY happening or even just POSSIBLY happening and declare a "source" as told him or her that it is true. And there is no backlash, because there is no institutional reputation tied to it.

North America also badly needs "truth in publishing" laws that force companies to at least attempt to be honest and accurate. They exist in European nations, and I hate to say it, but much of Europe is -- even with serious immigration and cultural schism issues -- still socially healthier and more balanced across economic sectors than what North America is becoming. They're going the same way, but their protections mean it's happening much more slowly, in more measured terms, with much less damage as a consequence.

Most European nations still have healthy newspaper outlets, essential to getting any sort of depth or context into news (television news has, outside of documentary style news programs that focus on long story telling, always been about selling an image for commercial time, not informing the public. It is, almost uniformly, shit. For most of my 25 years at papers, we knew what 90% of the next day's TV news would be... because we wrote it the night before, and they ripped and read it the next morning.)

Ultimately, our neurological dependency as a species on tribes/packs for security means that we are both too trusting of the familiar, and too suspicious of the unfamiliar. By all means, trust a source if you like.... but ask yourself if you really think this dude you've never met or heard from before has good sources, or if you just want something that makes you feel you know more, and thererfore makes you feel a little more secure inside.

It's usually the latter. But the net result is the exact opposite of what you were looking for. It offers a false sense of security, while worsening outcomes through misinformation.

Instead of social media, embrace the unknown. It's where we're all headed anyway.

[jloome]

Jayden Nelson's corner was redirected in by a defender to give Rosenborg a 1-1 tie with league leaders Molde yesterday.

Seems to be playing regularly now but came off in the 64'.

They have him as a hybrid winger/central player in a freaky sort of 3-6-1 formation.

[Mr. Inbetween]

Interesting and fun question/thought? I suspect they would play on the 10th and again on the 13th?

https://twitter.com/MulleyOliver/sta...17840364011521

[Kayaker]

Interesting and fun question/thought? I suspect they would play on the 10th and again on the 13th?

(edit: adding twitter embed)

Check out this tweet at [URL]https://twitter.com/MulleyOliver/status/1648317840364011521[/URL]

In the TFC app, it has the 'TBD' game on May 9th. We already know that we're hosting no matter who wins tonight.

[jloome]

The first kid to have started at DeRo's academy to have signed a pro contract is new TFCII wingback Kundai Mawoko.

https://www.torontofc.ca/tfc2/news/t...hrough-next-ge

[jloome]

When Jimmy Brennan said CPL was still miles behind MLS, he wasn't kidding.

Valour FC loses to a League One BC side by two goals. Ouch.

https://torontosun.com/sports/soccer...-semi-pro-side

[Mr. Inbetween]

< From another thread > I think MLS is having real issues with the level of refereeing, and are facing kind of a conundrum...

If issues persist or devolve, perhaps MLS could investigate utilizing from time to time a few referees from the EPL or other geographically ‘more closer’ European pro leagues. Similar to the SPL. The travel time from Western Europe to the East Coast of NA or the KSA seems to be about the same. Although, aside from any investment cost, maybe Unkel-itis may still persist. Arguably, Michael Oliver may have been lenient here…

Check out this tweet at [URL]https://twitter.com/goal/status/1648666705550520320[/URL]

[jloome]

If issues persist or devolve, perhaps MLS could investigate utilizing from time to time a few referees from the EPL or other geographically ‘more closer’ European pro leagues. Similar to the SPL. The travel time from Western Europe to the East Coast of NA or the KSA seems to be about the same. Although, aside from any investment cost, maybe Unkel-itis may still persist. Arguably, Michael Oliver may have been lenient here…

We already did that, in terms of quality improvement.

Howard Webb, the former head of PRO who is now head of VAR for the Premier League, was here for a decade supposedly building out better referees.

Alan Kelly, the current head of refs, is also a former Premier League ref.

The quality issue can't be solved by "borrowing" refs. You do that when there aren't local FIFA-qualified refs available. It has to be through training and attracting the best staff, by paying them properly (they make on average less than 50K per season).

They've been working on it for over a decade.

[ag futbol]

We already did that, in terms of quality improvement.

Howard Webb, the former head of PRO who is now head of VAR for the Premier League, was here for a decade supposedly building out better referees.

Alan Kelly, the current head of refs, is also a former Premier League ref.

The quality issue can't be solved by "borrowing" refs. You do that when there aren't local FIFA-qualified refs available. It has to be through training and attracting the best staff, by paying them properly (they make on average less than 50K per season).

They've been working on it for over a decade.

I think the major thing here is lack of investment. In Europe there is a ton of money spent on coordination, review, and standardization in the top league so similar plays get treated similarly. MLS just doesn’t

My only other comment is there are some legacy guys who need to go (not that this is unique to MLS). Ted Uncle has been shit for as long as I’ve been watching MLS and no about of anything will make him better ar his job at this stage

[burlington Red]

We already did that, in terms of quality improvement.

Howard Webb, the former head of PRO who is now head of VAR for the Premier League, was here for a decade supposedly building out better referees.

Alan Kelly, the current head of refs, is also a former Premier League ref.

The quality issue can't be solved by "borrowing" refs. You do that when there aren't local FIFA-qualified refs available. It has to be through training and attracting the best staff, by paying them properly (they make on average less than 50K per season).

They've been working on it for over a decade.

I could be wrong but I don't recall Alan Kelly ever being a premier league ref.

[JoesphNdo]

Alan Kelly refereed (very poorly) in Ireland before MLS. Definitely not former premier league

I always thought the fact he was considered a good ref here to be such a damning indictment on the state of refereeing in this league

[los sonadores]

I think the major thing here is lack of investment. In Europe there is a ton of money spent on coordination, review, and standardization in the top league so similar plays get treated similarly. MLS just doesn’t

MLS doesn’t pay their refs well. It’s very low money compared to Europe. Difficult to hire competent and even excellent people when you can’t live on your salary. Until the league compensate its referees decently, we’ll have mediocre referees. It’s not complicated.

[jloome]

Alan Kelly refereed (very poorly) in Ireland before MLS. Definitely not former premier league

I always thought the fact he was considered a good ref here to be such a damning indictment on the state of refereeing in this league

My mistake... but he did ref over 100 European matches outside of Ireland, including multiple Champions League and Euro League matches, so he's hardly coming from a lowly pedigree.

And he was voted the best ref in the league by the PLAYERS three times. If he's a bad ref, we don't have any good ones.

[Ultra & Proud]

And he was voted the best ref in the league by the PLAYERS three times. If he's a bad ref, we don't have any good ones.

Ding, ding, ding. There's your answer.

[OgtheDim]

https://proreferees.com/roster/referees/



I have a lot of time for Ismail Elfath - he is legitimately the best ref this continent has ever seen

I consider Marrufo decent & Gonzalez getting there

I havn't seen enough of a few of them to judge

Saghafi is not consistent enough for me

Unkel the same

[jloome]

Ding, ding, ding. There's your answer.

A funny line dude, but he was a UEFA tournament ref for 15 years before he got here. They don't generally keep them on at that level for that long if they're shit. I mean, maybe he's the guy who managed to squeak under the radar of competency that entire time, but I doubt it.

My only actual comment on his reffing is that like most UK/Ireland refs, he lets too much go.

Elfath is probably my favorite pro ref. He's the most consistent, anyway.

[Ultra & Proud]

From my experience watching lots of football (including really shitty leagues my boss watches at work), I find as a total neutral I do the "WTF kind of call was that!?!?" reaction more times per MLS match than I do watching a morning of Egyptian & Middle Eastern football.

Plus we're the only league I've seen where the linesmen blow at least one ball clearly over the touchline call per week.

[Mr. Inbetween]

Is TFC getting a new kit- announcement- today?

[613reppingTFC]

Is TFC getting a new kit- announcement- today?

Why? They just had the ocean blue released on the weekend..

[Ultra & Proud]

Why? They just had the ocean blue released on the weekend..

Some stupid community one coming that nobody will buy, like the other crappy ones they keep putting out.

[jloome]

Taty Castellanos, on loan at Girona from NYFC, scored four against Real Madrid today, first player since '47 to do it.

Mind you, go look at the clips. Shocking defending.

[ag futbol]

Taty Castellanos, on loan at Girona from NYFC, scored four against Real Madrid today, first player since '47 to do it.

Mind you, go look at the clips. Shocking defending.

Hey, even if you’re a rat-faced poacher they all still count

[OgtheDim]

Latest expansion discussion - San Diego now

https://www.espn.com/soccer/mls/stor...ome-club-no-30

Interesting stadium choice - 35K - Bermuda grass - willing to work with the league - VERY modern amenities - NO shade whatsoever so night games a must